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  #51  
Old 10-19-2013, 11:59 AM
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I don't have a problem with people wearing clothes in the colder regions of the world. We need them for warmth.

I don't have a problem with fashion, unless someone is obsessed to the point of spending more than they can afford on it. Putting together an awesome outfit from thrift store items you spent $2.99 each on is lots of fun!

I reckon when humans were still living in the tropics, and became upright, using hands, tools, we soon fashioned a garment for function-- a belt with a pocket for our favorite tools! After that, we started wearing some clothing items for several reasons-- status, religious symbolism, artistic outlet, tribal recognition. Humans are complicated beasts.

I've been to a nudist camp and noticed people still flaunt some style by the hat they wear, the shoes/socks on their feet, and even the towel they carry to sit on. The camp I went to prohibited body piercing jewelry, which I thought was weird.

Clothing became more of an issue when societies became civilised. Egyptians didn't wear much, but had a great sense of style. A cool linen skirt, fabulous jewelry, intricate sandals.

However, as we see in the first story in Genesis, the Hebrews, beleaguered as they were by the huge empire of Egypt, asserted tribal loyalty and unity by insisting on long modest robes, concealing the body, and covering the women's hair. The idea of modesty was expressed in the shame about nudity in the Adam and Eve story. Once people believed Yahweh wanted them to wear clothes, this requirement became easy to enforce.

Later, when Greece ruled the area, modest Hebrews covered themselves and were forbidden to take part in athletics so important to Greek society. These games were performed in the nude, as the athletic male form was idealized, valued and glorified in Greek culture. Oddly, their only form of modesty was to retain the foreskin. And the Jews removed theirs. But that's another topic.

These ideas about nudity being shameful have come down to us today from the popularity of a very old book, the Bible, written over 2000 years ago. The USA is especially prudish, puritanical, because of the form of Christianity popular when our country was founded. We are still struggling with these outdated morals today. I object to the prudishness that prevents women from feeling comfortable taking out a breast to feed an infant in public. When "morals" interfere with the health of society, it's time to take a look at these rules and change them.
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me: Mags, 58, living with:
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Last edited by Magdlyn; 10-19-2013 at 12:03 PM.
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  #52  
Old 10-20-2013, 04:57 AM
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So, essentially, the "story of clothing" in the West (i.e. Christianity) takes off with the Hebrews distinguishing themselves from the Egyptians by the clothes they wore. Does this go back far enough to explain today's standard of clothing in the Middle East? What about the Far East, and other parts of the world? Does each region/religion have its own "tale of clothing?" Did clothing evolve in the colder regions of the world strictly as a practical necessity, or did they ever accumulate religious or social connotations?

Just out of curiosity, are we all (on this thread) officially agreed that public breastfeeding is fine to do (even if some perspectives vary a bit on whether it might ever be at all sexual)? I'm thinking yes? ColorsWolf, you don't mind public breastfeeding do you? Even if so, do you see that subject as opening a larger can of worms, and if so, what's the nature of said worms?

Okay now I'm curious as to whether public breastfeeding is allowed in the Middle East. (Let me guess: No?)

Re: the foreskin as an accessory of modesty ... interesting and certainly a new idea for this guy.

ColorsWolf, I am hearing you say that emotional matters have tended to overwhelm logical matters in our society.

Re:
Quote:
"The color of some one's skin makes only makes a difference between individual Humans based upon temperature and climate, it only becomes a *huge* 'problem' when people obsess so much over it to the point of being illogical that it then becomes a problem."
Okay well, now that we as a society have managed to "make" it such a huge problem, what are the best ways to reduce the size of the problem now?

So homosexuality is only a "logical" problem if it leads to the end of procreation in the human species, whereas you estimate the size of the "hetero" (or at least "bi") population to be large enough to keep procreation going at an adequate (ample? ) rate. That and technology such as in vitro fertilization negates the "procreation threat."

But various people perceive homosexuality as threatening humanity for quite a range of "emotional" reasons, including ideas like homosexuality being a slippery slope leading to the end of all morality and civilization.

Religion is largely an "emotional" experience for most zealous believers, at least that's my take on it. Is it just organized religion that inflates the proportion of emotion in the social debate, or does any belief at all in the mystical/divine have that hazard? After all, any lone nut job can grab a gun and say, "God told me to kill a bunch of people," can't he?

I am also hearing you say that we (as a society) are over-focused on trivial/impractical issues and as a result are missing the big picture. I see some of your examples of the trivial/emotional/illogical matters blocking our vision. Can you give me some examples of the larger/logical matters that we're (collectively) overlooking?

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"Someday we may try to destroy each other in a giant war over 'plaid t-shirts versus plain t-shirts!'"
That sounds a bit tongue in cheek; if the "classic" version of WWIII takes place, I expect politicians will come up with a "better excuse" to start the war, or an excuse that *sounds* better. "God told me/us to do it" tends to sound like a great excuse, so I wouldn't be surprised if WWIII was a religious war, perhaps even a continuation of the Crusades. In which case, it might be a giant war over "army hats" versus "towel hats?"

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"When will this madness stop?! When there is absolutely *nothing* left of us as a species?!"
I imagine we'll all agree that would stop the madness. If humanity per se is the problem, then does it matter if humanity disappears?

The one good thing about an insane tyrant is that he needs living people to rule over (not counting zombie empires ). So, as twisted as his motivations are, it's still not in his best interest to initiate the destruction of all living peoples (and all life) in the world. If he does that, then he now rules a world empty of people. That's not very fun for any tyrant. Therefore, even the suckiest leaders in the world will have a motivation to "play the political game" sufficiently to stave off a chain reaction of nuclear annihilation. They might love to nuke another country, but they know their country and all countries would probably also be nuked in the process.

The only danger here is if someone shows up on the scene just insane enough to not care whether all life (including their own) is destroyed. Then we might see an unstoppable global disease unleashed on humanity (think the ending in the movie 12 Monkeys), or something like that.

Given our current level of technology, we have just enough rope to hang ourselves, and just enough lack of sense to use that rope. The next, oh, thousand years, will probably be a crucial test for humanity. If we can survive that long, we might then develop enough ethical wisdom to start cooperating with each other, and stop destroying each other.

In the meantime, is there anything we can do to stop the madness now? Can you venture any suggestions?
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Last edited by kdt26417; 10-20-2013 at 05:00 AM.
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  #53  
Old 10-20-2013, 06:09 AM
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Women are usually separate from men anyway in the middle east.
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  #54  
Old 10-20-2013, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Okay now I'm curious as to whether public breastfeeding is allowed in the Middle East. (Let me guess: No?)
Actually, public breastfeeding is common in Muslim countries. It is not sexualized as it can be in the West.

A Muslim manual with breastfeeding recommendations:

http://www.al-islam.org/from-marriag...-breastfeeding.

And something less technical:

Quote:
The UPS man went on to tell me he was from a rural area of Pakistan, and how normal public breastfeeding was in his culture. He said women will cover up head to toe, but expose their breasts to feed their babies. He explained he was a practicing Muslim and Islamic law suggests that breastfeeding should go on for two years, and most of the women in his village breastfeed even longer. He then went on to quote the Quran and referred to different lines speaking specifically about breastmilk.
http://www.iamnotthebabysitter.com/p...breastfeeding/
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 58, living with:
miss pixi, 37, who is dating (NRE):
Master, 32
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  #55  
Old 10-20-2013, 09:58 PM
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Alas, the Wikipedia article on public breastfeeding is a little vague in some respects and largely focuses on public opinion. There are mentions of legal statutes but the statutes don't sound very clear, and seem to have been somewhat inconsistently applied. The article says almost nothing about the Middle East, really just a mention about Saudi Arabia and women being completely covered there.

I guess I'm not completely sure what to think? For instance I don't really know how men being separate from women in general plays into it.

The most I could tell about the United States is that public breastfeeding usually has pretty good legal support, but often poor social support which almost seems to overwhelm the law.

Canada seems to have a similar legal/social dichotomy as does the United States, even though I guess Canada has somewhat of a movement to regard women's breasts as no more sexual than men's breasts? but I don't think that movement really has all that much popular support so far.

Some countries seem to have some sort of private facilities set up for breastfeeding (as in, facilities that are legally required and protected).

Personally I'd rather see public breastfeeding not made such a big deal of, of course. But, I have learned that a whole lot of my "fellow Americans" have a lot more conservative of views than I do. I guess that's about the most I can say about my personal experience.
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  #56  
Old 10-21-2013, 04:50 AM
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Hey, ya wanna see something that'll make ya mad? This made me mad.

Re:
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In June of 2010, Kathryn Blundell (a deputy editor for the leading UK parenting magazine Mother & Baby) upset readers when she wrote about her breasts, "They're part of my sexuality, too -- not just breasts, but fun bags. And when you have that attitude, seeing your teeny, tiny, innocent baby latching on where only a lover has been before feels, well, a little creepy."
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_..._Baby_magazine
Okay, maybe not mad? astounded? disoriented? Wow, breastfeeding your kids is apparently like pedophilia.

Everyone "agree" with me? Additional perspectives? I'm just ... what ... how ...
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  #57  
Old 10-23-2013, 07:16 AM
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Kevin T,

I have no problem with breastfeeding in public: why should I? That's like asking me if I have a problem with someone eating a ham-sandwhich in public.~
Believe me please, I have had orgasms from eating food!~ ^_^
Does that mean we should ban all food? No, that's ridiculous we would die!~ ^_^ Should we ban all public food: when does it stop?~
Some one will ALWAYS find SOMETHING "orgasmic" are we to ban all things every where?~ How can you ban existence?~ It just gets more and more ridiculous, because the idea was ridiculous to begin with!~

(Note for this paragraph: I'm NOT referring to "you:Kevin", but to "you: in general")
Wild animals have sex in the open some times right in front of each other, it's natural, it happens, it's practical and therefor it is 'logical', don't try to make me believe something YOU BELIEVE from a STORY THAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE TRUE that supposedly 'justifies' 'wild animals' behavior' 'because they are wild animals: they are 'lesser than us' and they do not know that what they do is 'wrong''!~ XD I'll be laughing at you until sundown, because you speak nonsense to me and that makes what you say a joke to me!~ ^_^


On the subject of 'morality': I don't believe in 'universal morality', because every one likes and dislikes different things.~
To try FORCE EVERYONE EVERYWHERE into LIVING HOW YOU WANT is pure arrogance.~
BUT every one DOES have some 'basic form' of 'respect', like "Don't touch me unless I say you can or I WILL HURT YOU!"
'Morality' is based off of 'emotion' a 'sense of 'wrong and right', while 'logic' is based off of practicality.~
No one agrees on every thing 'morality' wise.~
We group together when we 'agree on many things morally, practically, or other wise', the issue is having a balance of individual preferences and toleration of others' preferences as well.~


On your reference to "nut-jobs" or "crazy people", "insanity" is simply another way to say "we don't understand this person or people" when they are NOT ACTUALLY "dealing with mental issues to the point of it being overwhelming for them".~ MANY PEOPLE are so full of SHEER ARROGANCE OR IGNORANCE that they ACTUALLY THINK that either someone is "insane" because the "definition" of "insanity" is "We don't understand this person or people." OR they actually believe that BECAUSE THEY 'don't understand this person or people' IT ACTUALLY MAKES IT SO!~ XD


I will not tell you the meaning of 'life' or 'the actual big picture', because you decide what that is for YOURSELF AND NO ONE ELSE!~ But when you 'feel' and you 'know' something is such a HUGE waste of time, 'doesn't feel right', and goes against everything you believe you should be doing: do you ignore this truth or do you actually make an attempt to stop yourself?~


I've already answered your last question with my previous post.~
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Last edited by ColorsWolf; 10-23-2013 at 07:43 AM.
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  #58  
Old 10-23-2013, 10:09 PM
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Heh, I suspected you were okay with public breastfeeding but just thought I'd check and make sure.

Nobutseriously, what other than sex per se really results in a literal orgasm? I don't even think we're agreed on this thread about whether breastfeeding can do that.

Re:
Quote:
"How can you ban existence?"
Nuclear holocaust? Sorry, bad joke ...

When you speak of wild animals having sex out in the open, I have to ask if you don't believe this kind of behavior would ideally apply to humans too? After all, humans are technically just one more species of animal ... so, is it "logical" for humans to have sex out in the open?

Honestly though, wild animals do live in a "different world" than humans. Not objecting to said animals getting their freak on out in the open at all; I mean if there was something wrong with it, what business would humans have filming it? but humans have acquired a sizeable mass of complicated social rules, which does put us in a different set of circumstances than the wild animals. We can't exactly choose to go out and have sex in public; we'd get in trouble if we did. In essence, humans have decided that it's okay for wild animals to have a different set of behavioral standards.

When you speak of morality, I wonder if you aren't mostly speaking of "sexual morality." After all, can't we argue that there's a "moral rule" against running out and randomly killing people? That's a different kind of moral issue.

Re:
Quote:
"Don't touch me unless I say you can or *I will hurt you!*"
Yikes, I hope that doesn't apply to if I accidentally bump into someone --

So, you see humans as having the dilemma of being "herd animals" while also being highly independent in their opinions as individuals? Hence, the timeless struggle humans seem to have of trying to get along together but not succeeding ...

Re: my reference to "nut-jobs" ... strictly intended to speculate about the problems of believing that "God told me to do something" and what He "told" the guy to do was kill a bunch of people. Are we applying bigoted opinions about insanity toward someone who is far enough off their rocker to start killing people? Now, if someone just thinks, "God told me to undress in public," we might have more of a gray area.

Awww, I was hoping you would answer all my questions. Alas, the ball appears to be back in my court, as I must decide for myself what's right or wrong based on my intuition which (supposedly) speaks clearly to me of such matters. If only my intuition and I had a more trusting relationship ...

Oh well, I guess I'll settle for some kind of dialog. In the meantime, what about that monstrosity I quoted in my earlier post? Surely it incited some opinions? It trash-talked not just breastfeeding in public, but *any* breastfeeding. No takers? (I know I posted it right before the site had some technical problems.)
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  #59  
Old 10-25-2013, 02:14 AM
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You're missing my point and degraded it from its' original meaning to something more specific but of lesser importance.~

One of the greatest mistakes Humans often make is try to see things that are not readily apparent in every thing.~ This works some times, but it mainly leads to a lot of problems, misunderstands, and errors in communication.~

The Human species has become so reliant on "subtly" as result of their own irrationality in their preoccupation with illogical self-destroying concepts such as "shame" and "modesty" that they often see "hidden meanings" where there are none intended.~

In other words: as result of wearing "clothes" and being "modest", we as a species have become more reliant on more "subtle" methods of communication that can often lead us astray when we as individuals are not trying to be "subtle" yet others of our own species mistakenly interpret us as being so.~

No, I did not mean what you mistakenly interpreted my previous post as meaning.~

Like I said once before: I say what I mean and I mean what I say.~

Please do not inject meanings into my messages that I did not put there plainly to see again.~

Thank you,

ColorsWolf
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:44 AM
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Dude, seriously, I am trying to understand your posts and converse with them on fair and equal terms. I can obviously see that I'm not getting what you meant in your earlier post, but I implore you to believe me when I say it's not as easy for me to understand as you may suppose it is.

I thought I had the right idea. Oh well. Perhaps there is some other angle you can approach it at? We're both speaking English, but using some kind of incompatible dialect, it seems.

No offense, misinterpretation, or misrepresentation of your words was intended. I apologize if such was the type of thing I ended up doing.

Look, I'm getting the idea that somehow wearing clothes (and/or the dubious psychology that drives the wearing of clothes) causes people to misinterpret things and find meanings where no meanings are there. I do not understand how this mechanism works. I'd be happy for more enlightenment on the subject if I could get it.

By the way, could I ask folks in general to grant me a little leeway for speaking of things in a light-hearted way? not when the jokes are out of line; that's another matter. I just sometimes get the impression that I am sometimes taken more seriously than I intended to be taken. Given the seemingly heavy nature of what we're talking about, I sometimes give in to the temptation to try to lighten things up a bit. I hope you won't hold that against me; I mean no disrespect.
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