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  #91  
Old 10-31-2013, 11:49 PM
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Kevin, "What else have I to say? I'll tell you. Clothing for some people is a way of hiding and covering up stuff that they're ashamed of about themselves. But what about the other kinds of covering up that we do? What about our pasts that we're afraid to talk about? What about the particularly dark shadows in our personalities that we'd like to keep hidden from the world? Isn't all that a kind of "virtual clothing?" and doesn't the shame/modesty/dignity trinity play a role in convincing us to wear "attire" over our behavioral faults? Like Satan in the Garden of Eden: "See, you are naked. Run and cover yourselves! Father will see your nakedness." So when we talk about physical nudity, do we also have the guts to psychologically unclothe ourselves for all the world to see? Polyamory, after all, has so much to do with communication, honesty, and all that."

That's an interesting point and one I choose to practice as I see it this way: physically not wearing clothing when practical is simply a side-effect of not "clothing one's self in non-physical ways" as this ties in with "shame" as "shame" is definitely a psychological issue and can be brought about from any source

including past childhood trauma, some would say that telling their children "they are disgusting filthy creatures and they should feel bad for even existing" as a reason to "encourage them to "cover themselves"" is in fact inflicting "childhood trauma" upon them in and of itself.~


Kevin, "Yes and I'll try once again to draw everyone's attention to the "Mother & Baby" quote I ran across well over a week ago. I beg you guys, can't I get a little puff of indignation out of that? My lady commented that it was a particularly crazy quote coming from a parenting magazine."

It's not that that article you brought up isn't interesting, it's just pointless to get upset over.~

People will always have their own opinions and perspectives, but 1 person's repressive and oppressive way of thinking is not going to affect me.~

Now if it becomes a majority agreed upon view point, then it's more likely going to affect every one who disagress with it and who lives their lives regardless of the respressive and oppressive opinions of others.~

Your other point is right about this: instead of becoming upset and shouting and raging, that energy would be better used in a way to bring about change.~
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Last edited by ColorsWolf; 10-31-2013 at 11:52 PM.
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  #92  
Old 11-01-2013, 02:38 AM
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Okay, I'm admittedly taken quite off my balance/guard by your appealing responses in those last two posts, so, well, thank you, and I'm glad we can still converse and hopefully exchange some interesting ideas. Mind you, I still feel that, for my own sake, I need to maintain a hard line as laid out in my yesterday's post. In other words, I can't reset the counter, in spite of your renewed kindness today. We *must* continue to speak to each other in this good-spirited fashion, otherwise I still feel that I'll have to withdraw from the conversation. Please don't hold that against me, I'm just not a strong enough person to go back to "that dark place" again.

Re:
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"I'm sorry, I'm just so used to arguing constantly on other forums where many people don't even have a logical common shared agreed point to start and mostly are just insults directed at me for their amusement."
If I have participated in *any* way to that sort of thing (especially any insult directed at you "for my amusement"), then I deeply apologize. I know what it's like to suffer internally in a way that people on the outside can't see or appreciate. It's no laughing matter. Whatever your struggles and/or conflicts have been, I take those as signs of internal suffering and as such, realize that I have no business giving you a bad time about any of it. I need to do better about realizing that other people are almost always doing the best they possibly can, even if it doesn't seem so obvious to my perception.

Yes, upsetness is a tragic waste of the precious little amount of time we have in this mortal life. I myself wish I didn't waste so much of my own time on upsetness. It really cripples me and stops me from basking in the simple joys of life.

Starting from my October 18 post, just about every post I've "sent your way" has been sent in a spirit of wanting to understand better and work with you in accomplishing your objectives on this thread. Yes, often I did so in a misguided or even disagreeable way, but even so it was ever in the hope that we could all end up understanding, appreciating, and helping each other better.

If you ever want to share more about your past, I am here and listening. I don't mean to pry with any of my questions (though I may still have a question now and then).

No, there's no point in living in regret, and I don't think you're under any obligation to find (and apologize to) all the people you think you might have wronged in the past. Bygones are bygones, as far as that's concerned. The here and now is what really counts.

Re: nudists ... probably more "psychologically nude/exposed/vulnerable?" Yes, in most cases. In all cases? I don't know but I doubt it. As you yourself said, every individual is unique and different. I think most or all of us have the trait of being more comfortable about revealing some parts of ourselves than other parts. Some people are very outgoing while others are rather introverted, for example. I will definitely admit to protecting/concealing parts of my psyche in addition to physically clothing myself, although I try to be as candid as possible toward my immediate poly companions.

Sooo ... why do people hide stuff about themselves? Shame is certainly one reason. But it might also be a nervous way of shielding other people from our less-pleasant traits. How easy is it to frankly tell someone, for example, "I have anger issues," without actually putting those issues on graphic display? In that sense, the manner in which one exposes itself is pretty important, especially when it's one's psyche that one is revealing.

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"Telling one's children 'they are disgusting filthy creatures and they should feel bad for even existing' as a reason to 'encourage them to "cover themselves"' is in fact inflicting 'childhood trauma' upon them in and of itself."
Oh absolutely. And although I was luckily spared that particular brand of childhood trauma, it's amazing how close my mom often came to saying "you're a disgusting filthy creature who should feel bad for even existing," for many many reasons even if nudity wasn't one of them. And yes, it was always a "justified" means to an end: to verbally discipline (i.e. shame) me into behaving in what she considered a socially acceptable manner. Spare the rod, spoil the child, right? and my mom was physically abusive too, but the verbal abuse was the worst.

Clothing (in my house growing up) wasn't approached in quite that mean of a way, it was more like something that we *were* going to do "because Mom said so." How ironic when she herself indulged in some nudity around our house. One standard for adults, another for children? I don't know. But that's how we were "trained" to keep ourselves clothed. Not by shame -- just by force. Similar to how all my mom's sons were "trained" to serve as missionaries for the church. There was never any question about whether you were going to serve a mission. You *were* going to do it, "cause Mom says so."

I don't know whether you were conditioned to be clothed by shame, e.g. talk such as "you're a disgusting filthy creature who should feel bad for even existing," but if that's how clothing became a part of your life, then I think that's pretty rotten (of your folks) and am sorry you were treated that way. I guess that would leave anyone with a bad taste in their mouth about clothing in general.

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"It's not that that article you brought up isn't interesting, it's just pointless to get upset over."
Oh come on, it'll be fun.

Nobutseriously, isn't that statement from that article at least a little shocking, even if it's not upsetting? I thought it was way shocking myself. I was like, "What?"

Fortunately, I'm pretty sure that person's opinion was not a common opinion at all, otherwise I'd be (a little more) worried about all of us as a society. "Breastfeeding: for adults only." Yeah ... now that's a weird concept.

Okay, enough rambling from me. I'm sure I'll have even more to say in future posts, I always do.

Regards,
Kevin T.
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  #93  
Old 11-01-2013, 03:35 AM
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Kevin, "Sooo ... why do people hide stuff about themselves? Shame is certainly one reason. But it might also be a nervous way of shielding other people from our less-pleasant traits. How easy is it to frankly tell someone, for example, "I have anger issues," without actually putting those issues on graphic display? In that sense, the manner in which one exposes itself is pretty important, especially when it's one's psyche that one is revealing."

I think if you want to talk about your "issues" they're going to be on "graphic display" no matter what, so there's no going around that.~

Don't worry about my childhood, it wasn't as horrible as some people's do turn out to be, in fact my parents did the best they knew how to do or at least were willing to do and I'm grateful for that.~

Ironically, my parents let us run around without 'clothing' as most children of very young ages naturally seem to do as 'clothing' is not some thing natural so logically we reject it when it is not practical as this seems to be the 'mentality' we are born with naturally.~

Also my parents told us they used to walk around with or without clothing as they felt in their own homes before we were born.~

But after a certain age of ours they seem to have fell back old 'traditional' repressive ways although I never felt they tried to 'burn' 'shame' into us as some parents will and have done.~

I suppose that's 1 of the reasons it wasn't as hard for me to 'un-learn' concepts such as 'shame' when it would have been much harder for some other people to have done.~

Almost forgot: HAPPY HALLOWEEN!~ ^O^

Almost forgot to: you didn't answer my question if you would "not-physically internet hug me".~ :3
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Last edited by ColorsWolf; 11-01-2013 at 03:43 AM.
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  #94  
Old 11-01-2013, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
When I see a bunch of ALL-CAPS TEXT (commonly understood on the web as being shouting), as well as other "fortified text" (such as bold lettering, underlining, italicizing, and combinations of those), I immediately recognize that, "Uh oh, I have pissed this guy off, he is no longer talking to me, he is now shouting at me and lecturing me in strident notes." That can't be helping either of us.
Quote:
But that's a little different from taking a strident tone with your audience just because you suppose they aren't listening (or that they deserve to get hit really hard with the powerful words you're going to say)
Quote:
If I taught a course in a university setting, and a student tried to answer a question of mine, but obviously misinterpreted my intent, finding blame isn't the answer. Telling the student to listen more/harder isn't the answer. Pointing furiously at the book and saying it's all in there, read it again isn't the answer. Getting angry and talking sternly (or even yelling) at the student isn't the answer (and that really Is what ALL CAPS is about - emphasis). You don't succeed in communicating knowledge and fostering discussion by telling the listener that they didn't do it correctly and you'll wait while they try it again.
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Anyway, yes, to anyone listening: *please* try to keep your "tools of emphasis" down to a dull roar. If you find a
really cool way to put someone else's ideas down, you shouldn't have to shout it out to makeiteffective.
Just because I agree with these things so much, they need to be on one post. I've mentioned how much I hate this way of communicating before. So overbearing.
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  #95  
Old 11-01-2013, 05:39 AM
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Re: issues on graphic display ... I was thinking more along the lines of, "I have anger issues, here let me show you," and you punch the other person out. "Inappropriate display." It's better if you just explain it to them, describe it to them, or whatever.

If clothing-training-by-shame was not the approach used when you were growing up, are there people you know who did get that kind of warped training? I got the impression you felt this was a widespread problem that was happening in a lot of homes, am I reading that wrong?

Your parents sound cool and open-minded from your description; I'm envious.

Re:
Quote:
"You didn't answer my question if you would 'not-physically internet hug me.'"
Do I have permission? Kidding. Sure, I'll go for your internet hug. May it stick for many years to come.

Re: Halloween ... sooo depressing. No kids come to our door. Well, maybe when we move to Seattle-ish that'll change.

---

@ london ... thanks for your compilation of internet no-no's (of the ... "over-emphasis" kind). From what I've seen in my forum experiences, it's a pet peeve of quite a few regular users out there.
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  #96  
Old 11-01-2013, 06:00 AM
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I brought it up here before and nobody agreed. I seriously hate it because I actually shout in my head as I read it so it just becomes me silently lecturing myself in my head.
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  #97  
Old 11-01-2013, 06:14 AM
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Oooh ... well, uh, maybe it was more on Polyamorous Percolations that I was exposed to this widespread aversion to "SHOUTING" and such.

Anyway, we seem to have a few members on this thread that agree ... hopeful sign, yes?
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  #98  
Old 11-01-2013, 06:19 AM
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Somewhat.


And people wear clothes to keep warm. Has anyone suggested that?
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  #99  
Old 11-01-2013, 06:31 AM
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LOL, yes, that's been suggested; believe me, we've been over just about every imaginable reason for wearing clothes.

Still, I think we're in agreement that a lot of shock value (and a possible arrest) would result from someone disrobing out on some public street (even if it was a warm day). So what probably started out (in the Ice Age) as protection from the elements, somehow evolved into the complex rules about clothes that govern human behavior today.

Hasn't been brought up for awhile though so good point; good timing too I think ...
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Old 11-01-2013, 06:45 AM
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The male erection vs nipple erection thing was also noteworthy. But I feel that as nipples become erect.due to cold as well as sexual arousal. And not everybody has hard nipples when sexual aroused, its different to male erections. I mean sure, he might need to pee but an erection pretty much means sexual arousal.
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