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  #91  
Old 10-12-2013, 04:51 AM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default It's like a pendulum

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417
I can't authoritatively speculate on what kind of privilege is more common, couple privilege or "unicorn privilege." I guess I'm just guessing based on what I've read so far on Polyamory.com, Poly Percs, Franklin Veaux stuff, and other poly websites. The stories I hear the most often are the "couple privilege horror stories." But, I have also heard "newcomer privilege horror stories," and the bottom line is, it's not about which kind of privilege happens the most. It's about the fact that both kinds of privilege are wrong. Note that when I say "privilege," I kind of want to play it safe and limit the definition to the description I laid out in the paragraph above.

I'm too chicken (and unqualified) to try to lay out what gray areas constitute privilege, and which constitute responsibility. I suspect that everyone has to figure that out individually based on their own unique situation.
and I think you are right, it is something for everyone to figure it out with the parties that are involved in their lives. because everybody's different. It probably doesn't help anybody unless they closely resemble each others view on life and relationships unless you were to write out five different scenarios for the most practiced "flavor" or dynamic of poly relationships.

I don't think you are too chicken or unqualified, at least not anymore than any other poly-counselor/psychologist or self help author


But it is just like a pendulum swings back and forth as far as whether its the couple or the third who is interfering or harming the relationship through privilege, essentially saying that the privilege is had at the expense of another person's sacrifice.

Very rarely are these issues ever seriously investigated, or rather to state it more accurately "reported" from a completely neutral point of view. But it is an awful lot like fashion, and it does depend on whether the you label the person a unicorn or a cowboy, and that label determines whether or not the couple will be viewed as being oblivious to their unfair and horrible treatment of the unicorn/cowboy or if they were simply innocent poly people just trying to live, love, and trust but they were burned by a cowboy/cowgirl.

And failing to realize our own motivations behind each of our own two cents worth is exactly what makes the things like :

"... what I've read so far on Polyamory.com, Poly Percs, Franklin Veaux stuff, and other poly websites..."


can be inaccurate or as right on the money we want it to be, but the truth is all of it can be useless hypothetical garbage unless you can learn the aspects of relationships that really matter, that really make a difference, and none of that can be ever be realized without honesty

not that you must copt to every exaggeration you've made in statements on any forum or any unspoken motivation you had when you answered a survey, but that if you truly care about the people you are in a relationship with, it takes all parties involved genuinely caring. Willing to do the work that behavior become fertile ground for a healthy fulfilling relationship.

to recognize how much more willing you are to help your partner then you are your metamour (if there is a difference, everyone's relationships are different)

everyone of us knows the difference between treating a person fairly from unfairly, so in our minds what makes the difference between successful and unsuccessful poly relationships is not so much our actual behavior towards one another, but whether or not we feel that treating them "fairly" is a sacrifice on our part or we do it willingly because we love them.

Although I really can only speak for myself so I should say that I know the difference between treating a person fairly from unfairly, so in my mind what makes the difference between successful and unsuccessful poly relationships is not so much my actual behavior towards another, but whether or not I feel that treating them "fairly" is a sacrifice on my part or is it done willingly because I love them?

and for me to continue treating a person fairly or even favorably, I have to be treated respectfully and at least fairly, although not favorably. And even if I do not demand that respect, it is in fact mandatory because without it, the relationship is doomed to fail. I don't have to put 2 and 2 together or recognize how not being respected affects me negatively because regardless things go south and the relationship will end even if I don't understand why.

In full disclosure I should say the relationship will end if I am lucky because I know a lot of people who remain in unhealthy relationships and without even realizing it they treat complete strangers with much more respect and understanding than they do their spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend.


Whenever there is an imbalance of treating others with honesty and fairness, if it doesn't get addressed it is doomed to fail if you are lucky, otherwise the relationship will just make you miserable

something as minuscule as not being on the same page can also cause an imbalance that ruins everything, but from my perspective it is less often misunderstanding of what page, and more often a failure to practice honesty

so much of it boils down to what constitutes a healthy relationship in general and separating out polyamory as a whole nuther animal may be better left as an exercise in amusement rather than seriously psychology

maybe, I don't know

Last edited by Dirtclustit; 10-12-2013 at 05:16 AM. Reason: typos
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  #92  
Old 10-12-2013, 11:52 AM
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I think I can agree with that.
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  #93  
Old 10-12-2013, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by london View Post
These are examples of when I would say there are issues:

"All dates must take place in the home unless permission has been granted for a different location because I don't want to be left holding the baby all the time." Mistrust:This says to me that spouse 1 cannot trust spouse 2 to fulfill parenting obligations

"I need input into how, when and who you date so I can make sure you don't get caught up in NRE" Mistrust: This says to me that spouse 1 cannot trust spouse 2 to maintain their relationship in the absence of monogamy
I have not seen, or read this into anything by any poster in this thread. That you continue to base your argument from this standpoint is beyond bizarre to me.
The first one is a good example of unreasonable expectations. The second one sounds like an unrealistic interpretation of something Kuroi and I have going.

I want to know what’s going on.

Kuroi meet someone new.
Me: what did you talk about?
Kuroi: Haven’t talked to them yet, just saw someone and feel interested, spotted them watching me with interest.
Me: Why didn’t you go say hello then?
Kuroi: I can’t do that!
Me: You should make the first move. Say hello, and ask their name.
Kuroi: That’s hard to do.

Kuroi wants to ask them on a date. What’s holding Kuroi back?

Me: Where do you think you’d go on your date?
Kuroi: something art related it’s the only thing we have talked about.
Me: well you can’t look at art stuff all day you should pick at least one cool spot to sit and get drinks, or food. Like that cafe you found at X that we really like.
Kuroi: Yeah maybe.
Me: Maybe you should meet at something where you can get coffee and talk before you go out see if there are more ideas for where to go after you talk for a little while.
Kuroi: I was thinking we’d go to X and can maybe get some interesting conversation going there.
Me: That would be a fun place to start. You should do that.

I want to feel included not excluded.
Kuroi would prefer not to know, but then often asks where I went, what I did. Curiosity for what happened (even with just a friend) can pique Kuroi’s jealous moments. A lack of knowledge and feeling excluded can pique mine. We keep these things in mind to help each other not be triggered.

*****

My idea of “rules” to avoid NRE stuff, is more like what I am discussing now with Kuroi.

If you want to call them rules you may, we call them agreements. Actually right now we are calling them "IDEAS" and our ideas include what being "respectful" means to each of us. As in what it means to me with Kuroi, or with a Meta, and what it means to Kuroi with me, or to a meta. When someone new arrives, and they are dating one of us, then one of us or all of us will need to discuss what respect is to them from a partner and a meta.

1) Make time for quality time outside of the house as a family, and as a couple.

2) Make time for quality time at home as a family, and as a couple.

3) Make time on the weekends for at least one day (preferably 2) each month so we have more than just a couple hours together.

4) Keep up with our shared calendar.
a) Each person is expected to put their hobby things on the calendar
b) Each person is expected to put events, and plan on the calendar.

If/when someone new comes along.
1) BE OPEN AND HONEST. Let me know what’s going on.
a) I prefer things go slow. (especially after dealing with Poly Hell things last time)
b) Kuroi just says "be Careful"

2) Don’t override our time (time as a couple, time with just Momoroi, and time as a family) for someone new without informing US first.
All being informed takes can be something as simple as a reminder. “Hey I’m asking this person out. I don’t know what their schedule is like, but I’d like to see them this week. If that means we need to change our plans for this weekend will you be ok with that?”

4) See about adding your new SO to the shared calendar so we can all see what plans are being made, and where time is available for each person.
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  #94  
Old 10-12-2013, 02:53 PM
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Murasaki Murasaki is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vixtoria View Post
I'll be honest, not reading every reply. I'm going to respond to the premise, because I hear it over and over. I have heard people claim that the established relationship has too much power over the new one. I have seen WAY TOO MANY established relationships destroyed over the NRE of new ones and the power the new relationship wields.

So really I think it depends. I think people have to learn to have a balance and until they do, there's going to be problems with established relationships being in 'power' and for a lot of newbies there are going to be new relationships that have more power.

IDEALLY, I think people once they get a handle on things it goes both ways! I mean honestly, just because I am already in a relationship does not mean that the guidelines I have for new relationships is some sort of lording of power of the established relationship!

Sorry, I want to go slow, phone and internet chat, then a face to face, then a coffee date, I go slow for ME. It's what I am comfortable with. I don't intro you do my kids right away because it is what *I* am comfortable with. Single parent, or married, this is the way it is.

I so, so, so, so, so, so, so, SO get tired of people assuming that I DARE to have guidelines for dating is only because I have an established relationship. Single people have guidelines too! All relationships, lovers, children, family, will impact the others just on a basis of influencing me and therefore my time with you!

TLDR;; It's not about power, at least it shouldn't be. It's about what works for your life and if there are relationships already in your life, then yes they need to be considered! Stop ASSUMING it makes you less important and putting YOUR fears of that on others!
This. <3

I have “rules” within me that dictate how I will go about a relationship, new lovers, new friends. The ONE time I set my inner “rules” aside turned out VERY badly for ME. Why would I do that again just because someone else THINKS it’s “couple privilege” or that my current relationship has too much power. You are welcome to talk to my partner, and get Kuroi’s idea behind my decisions. Maybe then you would see that Kuroi has not told me to “slow down” or “No, you can’t do {insert something you want from me} with someone new.”

What I will or won’t do is all about ME.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vixtoria View Post
It's about what works for your life and if there are relationships already in your life, then yes they need to be considered! Stop ASSUMING it makes you less important and putting YOUR fears of that on others!
I really like this here. Mind If I quote it repeatedly?
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In LTR of 20 years, married for 13 years to Kuroi
Didn't realize we had a poly type relationship in High school. Exploring poly again now that our Child is older.
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  #95  
Old 10-12-2013, 03:07 PM
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Murasaki Murasaki is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
This made me give some thought to what I consider to be a "responsibility". Paying my share of the bills or following through with an explicit agreement (take you to work on Tuesdays, pick up little Timmy from school on Fridays, etc). I can't think of what else would even come close to a responsibility when it comes to friends and lovers.

What would you consider a responsibility when it comes to the actions of Dude?
That’s a good question to ask. Everyone has a different idea of what responsibility is. Your examples fit with mine.

In relationships of certain kinds there are some unspoken “expectations” that can be considered “responsibilities”. I feel that as a friend it’s my responsibility to be available when my friend is in crisis. Availability does not have to mean that I am physically present. It can mean that I listen (from a distance) and respond to whatever the problem is. Being available also does not have to mean that I drop everything and help my friend right then. Sometimes the best thing is to let emotions cool then have a conversation with said friend. Sometimes the situation does warrant dropping everything to help someone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Marcus-sometimes you are just so darn agreeable. It's impossible to fight with someone who is so logical and reasonable. Sheesh.
HAHAH! Clearly you have missed a meeting or two as the popular vote is clearly leaning in the other direction
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
(fyi-I wouldn't honestly advise most people take on such varied complicated responsibilities.)
Sure, but you probably wouldn't have wished it on yourself. It's just how everything turned out and you and your crew have adjusted to the challenges. While from my outside perspective it sounds pretty tough, you have no doubt found a balance in which you can all flourish (or you wouldn't stay together the way you have).
Marcus you do have an argumentative streak. I tend to think that everyone has that streak to some degree. Being argumentative here and there (even if it seems like a lot) does not mean you are not logical. It’s been my experience that when the argument (the person arguing) has too much emotion in it that it becomes illogical.

What is “too much emotion” that depends on the person feeling the emotion, and when they begin to be unreasonable.

Marcus your view on things is sometimes very different from mine. Sometimes it makes me really think, and try to understand your point of view. Other times I have to walk away, because I have a very negative reaction to what you have said. Mostly I just let those ones go.
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LTR SO - Kuroi - Straight (broken up-not sure what we are now)
Child of Murasaki & Kuroi - Momoiroi

In LTR of 20 years, married for 13 years to Kuroi
Didn't realize we had a poly type relationship in High school. Exploring poly again now that our Child is older.
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  #96  
Old 10-12-2013, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Very true. I don't think any of us was intending something this complicated. I know we're all working towards less complicated. It already IS less complicated having gotten 3 kids out of the house. Not to mention minimizing the adults in the house to the three of us. There have been times there were excess of 12 people in the house. In fact, of the 13 years we've lived here, the last two years are the ONLY time we've had less than 9 people living here. 2 years where there are only 5 has been AWESOME!
As much as I like the way you have a family centric poly tribe. This frightens me. That’s just too many people living too close to me. >.>

Sometime the three people in my own home is too much. I think we just need a BIGGER place. Maybe something where I can build one of those tiny houses in the backyard as my retreat (or where any one of us can go to get away from each other.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
I can't authoritatively speculate on what kind of privilege is more common, couple privilege or "unicorn privilege." I guess I'm just guessing based on what I've read so far on Polyamory.com, Poly Percs, Franklin Veaux stuff, and other poly websites. The stories I hear the most often are the "couple privilege horror stories." But, I have also heard "newcomer privilege horror stories," and the bottom line is, it's not about which kind of privilege happens the most. It's about the fact that both kinds of privilege are wrong. Note that when I say "privilege," I kind of want to play it safe and limit the definition to the description I laid out in the paragraph above.
The stories about cowpeople don’t all fit in the “unicorn privilege” label. Many of the stories I have read are v situations. Not a couple attempting to create their “perfect Unicorn” triad thing.

When those “love” chemicals start getting pumped into a person system they can do some pretty dumb things. Doesn’t mean that the intention was to hurt/harm/sadden/anger anyone. They are reacting to chemicals, and not thinking like they would under other circumstances. If someone outside those chemical doesn’t remind them, “hey pay attention” then they can get lost in those euphoric moments.

It’s like thrill seeking, always looking for the next “rush”. That’s what those “love” chemicals make me think of. The person is looking for that next, “OMG I love you” moment. Does it mean they are actually in LOVE? nope it could just be lust, or infatuation, and usually in the first year that’s exactly what it is. Not always, but that does seem to be how things go in general.

I did some pretty stupid things as a teen when I was “in love”. Looking back I can smile, but I can see where I hurt people in those moments, friends, family, other people I cared about. I have also witnessed other people doing stupid things in there “i’m in love” feelings. These thing can hurt other relationships, not just sexually intimate ones.

My best friend in high school disappeared from my life because of Love for someone else. I still miss that person, I wonder what they are like now, and if the new love was long lasting? Does my old friend think about me sometimes too? Gees, I’m getting sad just thinking about that situation. I was devastated at the time.
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LTR SO - Kuroi - Straight (broken up-not sure what we are now)
Child of Murasaki & Kuroi - Momoiroi

In LTR of 20 years, married for 13 years to Kuroi
Didn't realize we had a poly type relationship in High school. Exploring poly again now that our Child is older.
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  #97  
Old 10-12-2013, 06:29 PM
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Our dream and goal is to have a large enough property to have multiple dwellings so we all have a "little place to get away to".

And I know Marcus can be argumentative. He and I frequently butt-heads. But he is always willing to step back and see another perspective if it makes sense. That I greatly appreciate.
Besides-he's a little of a flirt and I enjoy teasing him.
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  #98  
Old 10-12-2013, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Our dream and goal is to have a large enough property to have multiple dwellings so we all have a "little place to get away to".
It was one of the requirements for moving in with IV and CV that I needed my own room and bathroom. If I don't have a place to retreat to... I start getting grumpy.

I like the idea of having a big place with many people but also plenty of places to hide. That way, the super social folks can get their fix while those of us on the other end of the spectrum can buzz in for a bit, enjoy the company, and then split off whenever we care to. Win to the Win.

Quote:
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Besides-he's a little of a flirt and I enjoy teasing him.
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  #99  
Old 10-13-2013, 01:49 AM
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Marcus-that's one of the great things about being down to only 5 people in the house. There are enough rooms for each of us to have a personal space (not enough bathrooms but that's another story).

The point where we designated a personal space for each of us was a HUGE life-changer in our situation. The amount of stress dropped so significantly it was almost scary. Like suddenly having low blood pressure or something.

It has DEFINITELY had a MAJOR impact on each of us. Even the kids agree-we don't any of us want anyone to move back in. LOL!
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  #100  
Old 10-14-2013, 06:18 AM
JaneQSmythe JaneQSmythe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
This made me give some thought to what I consider to be a "responsibility". Paying my share of the bills or following through with an explicit agreement (take you to work on Tuesdays, pick up little Timmy from school on Fridays, etc). I can't think of what else would even come close to a responsibility when it comes to friends and lovers.

What would you consider a responsibility when it comes to the actions of Dude?
I see there are a number of posts already since you asked this ... but I will go ahead and answer anyway since it was directed at me (before I read all of the others - I'll admit).

There are "household responsibilities" that he is responsible for (those are the roommate ones) - he and MrS share home and car maintenance and shopping/cooking duties. They are responsible for covering (or making other arrangements for) pet feeding and watering if I am called away and can't do it. Etc.

It is also his "responsibility" to either maintain the "safer sex" rules that we have all agree to OR to let us know that he no longer agrees with the rule and will not be following it - so that we can adjust OUR decisions accordingly.

The "intangible responsibilities" involve allowing for enough time/communication to support our connections (as friends/lovers). I'm not a high-maintenance person but even I have minimum "needs" in order to be comfortable in a relationship with someone. For instance, in the "friend" category - if I don't hear from someone in over a year I don't consider them a "current" friend - more like a former friend with no animosity who might become a current friend again at some point in the future.

It's each of our responsibility to, at least, listen to what those "needs" are and take them into consideration if we want to remain friends/lovers. Which is not to say that he has a responsibility to actually MEET those needs - that would be his decision (just as it is my decision if I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who is not willing to meet those needs). For instance, if the boys are gone for more than a weekend I need to hear from them (text or call) every few days so that I know they are OK or I get anxious. Someone who regularly put me in that position (being anxious) would likely not stay my partner for very long. (They usually call/txt me more often than that - but an "I'm OK" txt every few days is about MY minimum).

If he disappears for a month with Lotus (or to join the circus...whatever ) with no communication and leaving MrS to cover ALL of the household stuff, he can't expect to just waltz back into the house and pick up where we all left off 30 days prior - our relationships will have been affected by this.

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TT: poly bi male, married to Lotus, FB with JaneQ
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