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  #21  
Old 09-18-2013, 09:21 PM
Josie Josie is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
People think fair means equal, but it doesn't. Some things that are fair to everyone are not equal, and some things that are equal are not fair. Every case is different, depending on the people and their dynamic.
This. This is what I really wanted to say when I first posted on this thread but didn't really have the words for. Sometimes what's right for one person isn't for someone else and vice versa. So to make everything equal across all boards with the same standards/rules/guidelines applying to everyone would mean that whilst everyone was treated the same, it would not necessarily be fair as everyone's needs are different.
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  #22  
Old 09-18-2013, 10:11 PM
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Marcus Marcus is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
It wouldn't be up to me to try and change their agreement or manipulate the situation to what I want. All I can do is ask if the situation would work for me, if I still feel respected in such a situation, and then I have the choice to either accept it, ask for an adjustment to it and see if he is willing to renegotiate with her to give it to me, or walk away. What good does it do to throw a tantrum, badmouth the guy and his partner(s), and start rumors, as Josie's ex-metamour apparently did? That is idiotic, especially since it was such a short amount of time that Josie and he had agreed to limit overnights.
This is a very adult way to look at it. Regardless of the period of time the restriction was to encompass, how much time was allowed, or any other aspect of the rules... it comes down to my decision as an individual to either allow this influence into my life or not. Whining and complaining about it simply suggests the maturity level of the person.

Personally hearing that there was a rule, temporary or otherwise, agreed upon by "the couple", which directly impacted me, I would immediately consider that to be a flag. Maybe not a deal breaker red flag, but you could be sure I would be keeping a very close eye on any control issues coming from that camp. A couple of weeks is a relatively short period of time, but it suggests that there might be an insecurity problem and that there is certainly some level of couple privilege going on there.

If I were *REALLY* interested in the person I might stick around for that... otherwise it would be entirely likely that I would turn that into a "Let's just break this off, be casual acquaintances, and call me if you get this stuff worked out"
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  #23  
Old 09-19-2013, 12:23 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Quote:
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This is a very adult way to look at it.
Why, thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Regardless of the period of time the restriction was to encompass, how much time was allowed, or any other aspect of the rules... it comes down to my decision as an individual to either allow this influence into my life or not. Whining and complaining about it simply suggests the maturity level of the person.
Yup. The fact that there is any agreement between two people is none of my business. How it could potentially affect me, is my business. Ranting and raving about it, calling them names, and getting all indignant serves no purpose. They are living their lives, and I'm living mine. They are not preventing me from making any decisions - they are simply presenting the situation from their viewpoint. Essentially the question becomes: am I willing to invite that into my life and, if so, how do I take care of myself to deal with the possible consequences?
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An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/
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  #24  
Old 09-19-2013, 07:12 AM
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Nyc-I just love you.
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  #25  
Old 09-19-2013, 08:42 AM
london london is offline
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I didn't mention what Josie does in her other relationship because it isn't relevant. What is relevant is that Josie's discomfort with polyamory is impacting on other people's relationships. Her husband might have been fine with it, but the person he was dating wasn't. The issue isn't trying to make things "fair" or "equal" when comparing Josie's relationship with her girlfriend with her husband's relationship with his girlfriend, it's about making sure that both his wife and his girlfriend have a fair and equal opportunity to have a say about what happens in their relationships. In this instance, Josie got a say in how often her husband sees his girlfriend, her husband got a say in how much he sees his girlfriend, but the girlfriend never got a chance to say how much she would like to see her boyfriend. If you are practicing a hierarchical form of polyamory that explicitly puts the needs of the primary style partner above the needs of any secondary partners, that's cool, just make sure everyone is aware of that. If you wish to follow a more egalitarian form that does not privilege relationships in that fashion, then I think it should have been handled differently.
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  #26  
Old 09-19-2013, 08:44 AM
london london is offline
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Personally hearing that there was a rule, temporary or otherwise, agreed upon by "the couple", which directly impacted me, I would immediately consider that to be a flag. Maybe not a deal breaker red flag, but you could be sure I would be keeping a very close eye on any control issues coming from that camp. A couple of weeks is a relatively short period of time, but it suggests that there might be an insecurity problem and that there is certainly some level of couple privilege going on there.

If I were *REALLY* interested in the person I might stick around for that... otherwise it would be entirely likely that I would turn that into a "Let's just break this off, be casual acquaintances, and call me if you get this stuff worked out"
Also, this.
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  #27  
Old 09-19-2013, 12:29 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Originally Posted by london View Post
In this instance, Josie got a say in how often her husband sees his girlfriend, her husband got a say in how much he sees his girlfriend, but the girlfriend never got a chance to say how much she would like to see her boyfriend.
How do you know that she didn't? You don't. They may both have known how often she wanted to see him before they had their negotiation discussion, considered it, but negotiated and made their choices. In fact, it sure sounded like the new potential girlfriend (after only two or three dates, I would be hard-pressed to think of her as a girlfriend) told them what she wanted when she threw a hissy fit! Oh, she made sure they knew!

Look, it's no different than if he were single and said to her, "I've got a really busy work schedule, I can only see you once a week." He is presenting what he is able to offer her. It doesn't matter (to her) where the restriction comes from. She was presented with the reality of his situation and had total choice in what to do about it. Accept, negotiate, or walk away. Simple. I do not see how that somehow translates to her not being able to state what she wants - of course, she could have stated what she wanted at any time (and it sounds like she did!) but that is still no guarantee she would have gotten what she wants.
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An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/
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  #28  
Old 09-19-2013, 12:43 PM
london london is offline
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I know from what Josie said, it was clear that the girlfriend did not have a say about that decision at all. And it isn't like work at all, he was asked to restrict his contact with his girlfriend until Josie came to terms with him staying with his other partner. That's about one person's feelings influencing and dictating the pace and nature of someone else's relationships.

I'll again quote what Marcus said because I think it sums up my feelings on it nicely:


Quote:
Personally hearing that there was a rule, temporary or otherwise, agreed upon by "the couple", which directly impacted me, I would immediately consider that to be a flag. Maybe not a deal breaker red flag, but you could be sure I would be keeping a very close eye on any control issues coming from that camp. A couple of weeks is a relatively short period of time, but it suggests that there might be an insecurity problem and that there is certainly some level of couple privilege going on there.
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  #29  
Old 09-19-2013, 05:05 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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I see it the way Marcus sees it, too. I did state: "My desire for a relationship with someone doesn't mean I can't make a small allowance for a metamour to adjust to my presence, though if it became a pattern of control as the relationship moved on, I sure as hell wouldn't put up with that."

Josie made a request of her partner. He was not forced into it, he negotiated and ultimately chose himself how often he would see the new chick. We really don't know that the new chick's preferences were not known to him at the time.

Yes, one would be foolish not to consider that such a request could signify potential future control issues. However, Josie did not say she wanted to restrict all contact he had with his new potential girlfriend. She only asked that there be a limit to his sleeping somewhere else during the next two weeks - while he was in the early stage of dating someone. She didn't say that she restricted how many dates, phone calls, texts, etc., he could have with her - simply the number of times her live-in partner would not be sleeping at home. It was for a very short specified time only and, while it was a request that affected how his dates would go, it really wasn't a relationship yet and I don't see her request as all that extreme, unreasonable, nor restrictive. This sounds like a situation where some flexibility would have come in handy on the new chick's part.

I do not abide by others making rules for relationships I am not in, as a general rule. I just don't see this particular case as being all that horrible or unworkable. Perhaps it would have been better had they included her in the discussion and Josie said directly to her, "I need things to go a little slowly right now, I hope you don't mind." Personally, though, in the new chick's shoes, I wouldn't have a tantrum over seeing a guy with whom I'd only been on two or three dates! I wouldn't think that I had to be part of a conversation between him and his partner. The reality is that he had a limit on his time, whether it was coming from his partner, family, or work - can I deal with that? Is it in alignment with what I want as well, or do I ask for more/different? Do I feel respected (I think that would depend on how it was presented to me)? Basically he told her that he could have three overnights with her over the next two weeks. While it's not as spontaneous as I would prefer, it certainly wouldn't have been something I would get up in arms about for a guy I barely knew!

But yes, even if I accepted his terms, I would have been on alert for more potential control issues down the line.

I hope this side conversation is of some help to the OP.
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The world opens up... when you do.

"Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me." ~Bryan Ferry
"Love and the self are one . . ." ~Leo Buscaglia "

An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/

Last edited by nycindie; 09-19-2013 at 05:32 PM.
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  #30  
Old 09-19-2013, 06:59 PM
bookbug bookbug is offline
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While it is apparent that most of us have serious reservations about allowing another relationship to dictate the terms of our own, Nycindie brings up an interesting psychological point. When another has limits about time spent with us, are we more forgiving if it is a job issue, a child issue, etc limiting the time than if the limit is imposed by an insecure partner? If the answer is yes, then why?

I know for me, and from past experience, it is the fear that the limit is a slippery slope. One limit became more limits until she forbade the relationship entirely. So the question becomes, is the limit the other partner asked for unreasonable? Or is my reaction, not to the original request, but fear about how such requests may morph?

That said, I have known monogamous couples who were jealous of their spouse's career; I have known people dating a divorced person with children who were jealous of the children. (I mean really?)

Poly people, out of necessity, become very good at understanding their own motivations.
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