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Old 05-12-2015, 10:40 PM
LizziE LizziE is offline
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Location: The Frosty Northeast
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Default LizziE Learning as She Goes

While I do have a blog, I actually try not to post about every little thing on it. I'm hoping that would be OK here? There are things that I might want to write down to get out of my system and maybe look back at later, to see if there are any patterns or changes.

Where I am now I think I covered quite a bit in my introduction:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74088

I'm currently dealing with feeling stressed because Lora (my metamour) and Jon (our hinge partner) are going to start couples therapy in a few weeks, but Lora isn't going to get solo therapy yet because she thinks she doesn't need it. Or she's scared. Or she can't afford it. I haven't talked to her about this yet, Jon tendered these...reasons to me.

We could swing therapy financially. The "too scared" and the "doesn't need it" thoughts...they seem to contradict each other, no?

More importantly, given that she IS emotionally abusive towards Jon and continues to use abusive words and phrases to him when fighting, she most certainly DOES need therapy. And when I found out that she took my non-negotiable condition of "you need therapy" to mean that therapy for her & Jon meets that condition, I was nonplussed, to say the least. She needs therapy to unlearn her abusive fight tactics. She needs therapy to work on her self-worth issues. She needs therapy to improve her social anxiety and process through her PTSD. She needs therapy for a million reasons.

Anyways, the thing I'm wrestling with right now is that I don't really want to be her friend anymore. I want her in my life as little as possible, even if we are continuing to live together. I just...I have spent so much time and emotional energy on her, and I continue to have health problems that I need to work on AND I don't want to have a life that's all about her fears and her needs and how all she needs is time and patience when she won't even go to solo therapy to work on herself!

Is it OK to vent a little like this?

One of the things I'm debating is rekindling some old romances in my life. One of my past partners, Issi, who is also a wonderful friend, well, I've been really longing for us to spend time together, both romantically and hanging out watches movies and just being friends. I worry that that violates the old "if the relationship is broken, don't add more people to fix it" rule. The only way my relationship with Jon is broken is over our conflicting feeling about Lora - generally, I love and adore Jon and I am so glad to have him in my life. Lora, I don't know what to do about, other than build a life without her and ease back from helping her with anything that I wouldn't help an acquaintance with.

Sometimes I wonder about dating on OKC too, but I worry that that would also violate the "if the relationship is broken, don't add more people to fix it" rule. I guess I'll keep thinking and learning and go from there.
__________________
Liz: cis female, 32, bi. partner Jonathan, also dating Issi
Jonathan: cis male, 29, bi. partner Liz
Lora: cis female, 27, bi, ex-partner of Jon

Lora, Jon, & Liz moved in together May 2014.

Early July 2015, Jon broke up with Lora, because of her abusive and controlling behavior. Lora has a sublet for the month of July, while she figures out what she's going to do. Liz & Jon are waiting for her to figure that out, so that all Lora's things can be removed from the apartment.
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  #2  
Old 05-12-2015, 11:05 PM
Halcyeus's Avatar
Halcyeus Halcyeus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LizziE View Post
I worry that that violates the old "if the relationship is broken, don't add more people to fix it" rule.
Can't fix a relationship with more people, but you can distract yourself from getting too swamped by difficult things that you can't do much about.

Tough place you're in right now Lizzie. I hope things ease up soon.
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Old 05-12-2015, 11:51 PM
LizziE LizziE is offline
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The biggest thing I ask myself is "Would I be interested in a new relationship if it wasn't for what was going on with Lora and Jon?"

I feel fairly certain that my answer would be yes. Honestly, when we all moved in together, I envisioned that there would be 3-6 months of us getting used to living together and working out the major issues and then settling into a routine, then probably another 3-6 months of tweaking that routine and then *really* getting settled in. During that time, I also envisioned that I'd continue dating the people who I had been dating and/or possibly meet some new people (my current other poly relationships are closer to a FWB situation, though there is a lot of love between us; it's just that we both know the level of relationship we're going to have with each other, and we were all happy with it being a "see each other 1-3 times a month on a date, and probably socially another 1-3 times a month" thing).

What tripped me up was the combination of my continuing health issues as well as how bad things are with Lora. My first response to both of those was "let's get these squared away before looking outside".

On the physical health issues front, I am trying yet another type of physical therapy and...it is what it is. I'm becoming reconciled to the idea that I may never get better, but that I should hopefully become a bit more functional and be able to live a fulfilling live. And who knows? Maybe after years of being careful and partially disabled, it'll suddenly get better. I just can't keep waiting for it to happen.

On the Lora front - I tried. I really did. Her not wanting solo therapy for me was just a giant middle finger. Not that I think she's saying no to piss me off (or that she even really considered me at all in the decision), but why am I going to continue to put energy into helping her, and supporting her, and trying to understand her, and being there for her when she won't put it in herself? I'm just...done. Emotionally, I'm done with her for the moment.

With Jon, we're in a great place in every way except for our differences of opinion about Lora. I am currently resigned to the fact that he wants to continue to date her and give couples therapy a try. I love him for his determination and will to not give up, even as I worry that he's currently doing that...what do you call it? the thing where you keep throwing good energy after bad, because you've been invested for so long that you can't stand the idea of bailing? That. I worry that he's doing that. But it's not my choice to make, it's his.

So...there I am.
__________________
Liz: cis female, 32, bi. partner Jonathan, also dating Issi
Jonathan: cis male, 29, bi. partner Liz
Lora: cis female, 27, bi, ex-partner of Jon

Lora, Jon, & Liz moved in together May 2014.

Early July 2015, Jon broke up with Lora, because of her abusive and controlling behavior. Lora has a sublet for the month of July, while she figures out what she's going to do. Liz & Jon are waiting for her to figure that out, so that all Lora's things can be removed from the apartment.
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Old 05-13-2015, 02:12 AM
reflections reflections is offline
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Glad to see you created a blog - I'll definitely be reading along!

This is absolutely a place for you to vent. From what I've read, blogs are a safe space to say whatever you'd like to say. You can ask for feedback/advice explicitly, but oftentimes, you'll get more of that from posting in the Poly Relationship Corner. And if there are posts from others on here that you do not want as part of the blog, I believe you can contact a moderator to have them removed. It tends not to be a place where you're heavily critiqued or criticized.

Sorry to hear that Lora hasn't changed her perspective on individual therapy, and I hope that her couples' therapist might be able to highlight the need for this over time. Guess it comes down to how long you feel willing and able to wait.
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Me (Chrissy): Late 20's, female, bi, poly, married to Roger (together for 14+ years) and dating Jack in a LDR (5+ years)
Roger: Early 30's, male, poly, married to Chrissy and dating Taylor (>1 year)
Jack: Late 20's, male, currently mono, dating Chrissy
Taylor: Late 30's, female, currently mono, dating Roger
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Old 05-13-2015, 04:21 PM
LizziE LizziE is offline
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This is pretty much cut & pasted from my blog. This happened last night.

Jon's work was crazy, so he got home much later than anticipated (nearly midnight). I was showering, so he came in and showered with me and let me know that his presentation is so behind that he had to be back at nine in the morning, so no good night sleep for him! Including commutes to and from work, and getting ready in the morning, he's looking at six hours of sleep. After a quick shower, he got out to grab a bite to eat. I was feeling like a leisurely shower, so I took my time, did some leg shaving, put some deep conditioner on my hair.

When I got out about 15 minutes later and was drying my hair, Jon came back to brush his teeth and pee. We talked while he was doing it - I told him a quick, funny story about work today. He's sleeping with Lora tonight, and when he went into the bedroom with her, I heard her say "That is totally not fair and OK". And he ask "What?" She said "You were just in with Liz talking and laughing. Why aren't you talking to me?" He said "I was talking to you the entire time I was eating, and Liz was still in the bathroom when I used it, so I talked to her while I was in there. Now I'm in the bedroom with you." To which she said "yeah, but you're just gonna go to sleep. You should be talking me. You never talk to me like that."

Two things of note: One was that Lora was talking in a sort of jokey voice. You know; the one people use when they're kinda joking, but not really, and if someone takes strong exception to what they say, they can say "Jeez, clearly I was joking - don't be so sensitive!" That one. Also Jon kept pushing back at Lora and repeated "We were talking while I was in the bathroom. We can talk if we're both in the bathroom at the same time."

And so they argued about it for a few minutes (with Lora saying "I'm just saying. I notice things like that") before Lora changed the subject to something cute one of the cats did earlier today. Knowing full well that Jon has to be up in six hours and counting.

It's the little shit like that that both makes me not want to live with her and also causes me to say to myself "Are you fucking for real? You seriously have to bitch about a five-fucking-minute long conversation in the bathroom? Really?"
__________________
Liz: cis female, 32, bi. partner Jonathan, also dating Issi
Jonathan: cis male, 29, bi. partner Liz
Lora: cis female, 27, bi, ex-partner of Jon

Lora, Jon, & Liz moved in together May 2014.

Early July 2015, Jon broke up with Lora, because of her abusive and controlling behavior. Lora has a sublet for the month of July, while she figures out what she's going to do. Liz & Jon are waiting for her to figure that out, so that all Lora's things can be removed from the apartment.
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Old 05-13-2015, 04:31 PM
LizziE LizziE is offline
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Location: The Frosty Northeast
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So I wrote Jon an email about it this morning, and how it was really upsetting to me when he just downplayed things like that as if they're not a big deal, because they are part of a larger picture. I let him know that I'm going to have *that* little exchange on my mind any time he and I have a five minute talk, and that that's incredibly stressful.

I also let him know that I'm seriously considering writing an email to Lora myself about it, and how that feels, especially give the scarcity of time that Jon and I have had the past few weeks, and will continue to have for at least the next week. But if I do that...what happens? Will Lora ask Jon for his opinion? If he agrees with me, will she see that as a "sign" that he's going to replace her with me (she's said that to him many, many times).

If he told me that I was overreacting, I would be pissed. I am so tired of stupid shit like this cropping up over ANY kind of situation. I don't understand how he can't see how controlling it is. I also told him that I thought that HE needed to write Lora an email about how not OK things like that were, and how she really needed to work on her self-esteem and entitled mindset. But, I asked him, if he broaches this with her as a bigger problem, what will happen? Will she flip out? Is he afraid of that? I told him that *I'm* afraid of that, because of the way that she catastrophizes situation and turns most criticism into "You hate me and you're just saying that to hurt me".

I just...I do not understand how she can deny the need for her to get therapy. I also don't see what he sees in her, not one little bit.

I need to figure out a way to live my life where I'm no longer in fear of her screaming and crying and threatening and control. How do I do that? Even if we stop living together, and I tell him that I don't want to see her any more, I know that she'll still be there, trying to control, always ready to compare the two of us, always eager to tell him that she KNOWS that he loves me more, that she KNOWS that he's going to break up with her any day, that's he's just another asshole who will abandon her when she needs someone the most. It is only after the screaming, crying, threatening, attempts at controlling that she'll admit that maybe SHE has the problem, maybe SHE flew off the handle.

But, that said, she doesn't need therapy for it. Nope. It's totally fine as it is.
__________________
Liz: cis female, 32, bi. partner Jonathan, also dating Issi
Jonathan: cis male, 29, bi. partner Liz
Lora: cis female, 27, bi, ex-partner of Jon

Lora, Jon, & Liz moved in together May 2014.

Early July 2015, Jon broke up with Lora, because of her abusive and controlling behavior. Lora has a sublet for the month of July, while she figures out what she's going to do. Liz & Jon are waiting for her to figure that out, so that all Lora's things can be removed from the apartment.
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Old 05-13-2015, 05:35 PM
LizziE LizziE is offline
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I feel really vulnerable posting this, but how does this look as an email to send to Lora?


I overheard that you were upset about Jon and I talking in the bathroom while he was brushing his teeth.

It is hurtful and upsetting to me to hear you say what you said to him last night and to know that you will challenge a five minute bathroom conversation that we have as something that is unfair to you.

You may not be aware of this, but for the past few weeks, Jon has had off both of the days that you have off. He's had off one of the days when I'm off. This week, he has off one of the days that you have off. He doesn't have off any of the days that I have off. I am aware of that, and it is really hard for me. I feel jealous. I feel sad. But I do not take my jealousy about that out on you, or on him. It's really important to me that you're able to do the same.

I know that Jon's work schedule will change and there will be weeks when I see him more. There will be weeks when you see him more. That's the way it's going to be, as long as he does the kind of work that he does.

No matter how his work schedule is, I have not - and will not - notice the two of you talking for a few minutes and then discuss it as something that is unfair to me. Can you do the same?
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Liz: cis female, 32, bi. partner Jonathan, also dating Issi
Jonathan: cis male, 29, bi. partner Liz
Lora: cis female, 27, bi, ex-partner of Jon

Lora, Jon, & Liz moved in together May 2014.

Early July 2015, Jon broke up with Lora, because of her abusive and controlling behavior. Lora has a sublet for the month of July, while she figures out what she's going to do. Liz & Jon are waiting for her to figure that out, so that all Lora's things can be removed from the apartment.
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Old 05-13-2015, 07:55 PM
PinkPig PinkPig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LizziE View Post
I feel really vulnerable posting this, but how does this look as an email to send to Lora?
I think it's a very considerate, well thought out, polite letter. I wouldn't find it offensive if I were the recipient. And, though it might hurt my feelings, I am mature enough to look at my behavior objectively. Based on what you've said, I'm not sure your metamour is capable of that? In which case, an email may just contribute to the animosity between you?

The other possible issue I see is that if you didn't live together, and/or if you hadn't overheard a private conversation, you wouldn't be privy to it; therefore, it wouldn't be any of your business, kwim? Flip it around, if she'd overheard what you thought was a private conversation between you & Jon about his interactions with her, how would you feel if she sent you an email about it?

I've read much of what you've written. You have my sympathies. Your metamour does not sound like a fun person to live with. She sounds immature and insecure. I hope that you & Jon can come up with a better, workable situation because your house does not sound like a fun place to live
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Old 05-13-2015, 08:50 PM
LizziE LizziE is offline
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About me overhearing - the conversation happened with the bedroom door open and was conducted in a normal level of volume. The bedroom is right next to the bathroom. She knew that I was in the bathroom. So if she said, for instance, "I'd appreciate it if you didn't listen in on my conversations" then I'd say "Ok, then you need to close the bedroom door and talk quietly because my ears hear the soundwaves that are presented to them, and I'm not willing to walk around humming or with earbuds in at all times in my own home".

I do totally get (and agree) that she has a right to have private conversations with Jon. We all have a right to have a private conversation with someone in our own home. But when we do, I feel like it's a good idea to close the door of the room you're in, and talk quietly. Or put on music. The thinness of our walls is a running joke between the three of us. For me to overhear what they say - if whoever wants privacy doesn't take active steps to secure it, the only way to get it would be to get whomever wasn't supposed to overhear to listen to music or something.

It's a subject that I haven't seen mentioned much in any poly writing, but when you *do* live all together (and the walls are thin) what do you do when you overhear things?

I generally stay out of it as long as it has nothing to do with me and isn't blatant verbal abuse. I don't necessarily feel like overhearing something gives me the right to comment on it.

But when it's a comment/complaint about me, and about Jon and I spending five minutes together talking in the bathroom...I don't know what to do. It's stupid that it bothers me so much - but then I think it's stupid that it was even broached as a subject at all.

The main thing that I'm looking for is that living with her has sensitized me to such a point that I don't feel like I can objectively look at something that I've written to her to express a complaint and judge if the "average" person would find it objectionable.

If I send it, I'm going in with the opinion that she will get really upset and it will turn into a huge thing. I need the extra mental/emotional support so that if she says "This is a ridiculous request and you are terrible for bringing it up", I can say with more confidence "No, it's not, and no I'm not".

Not that being ruled by group consensus on a message like this is necessarily a good idea. I'm just having a hard time figuring out if anything is a good idea right now.
__________________
Liz: cis female, 32, bi. partner Jonathan, also dating Issi
Jonathan: cis male, 29, bi. partner Liz
Lora: cis female, 27, bi, ex-partner of Jon

Lora, Jon, & Liz moved in together May 2014.

Early July 2015, Jon broke up with Lora, because of her abusive and controlling behavior. Lora has a sublet for the month of July, while she figures out what she's going to do. Liz & Jon are waiting for her to figure that out, so that all Lora's things can be removed from the apartment.
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Old 05-13-2015, 08:55 PM
LizziE LizziE is offline
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As for how I'd feel, I'd remind myself to close the door of the room we're in and put on music.

I also apologize, if it was a conversation about someone else and they overheard it. And if it was a conversation about somebody else, I would additionally say "Well, now that how I feel is in the open, let's talk about this.". I've lived for roommates most of my adult life, and I have had a time or two when I was venting about someone I was living with in a common room and either didn't realize they were home or didn't realize they came home while I was talking. It was really embarrassing, but also helpful (in a way), because I didn't have to gather my courage to talk to them - I just had to gather it to apologize sincerely and then try to have a production conversation.
__________________
Liz: cis female, 32, bi. partner Jonathan, also dating Issi
Jonathan: cis male, 29, bi. partner Liz
Lora: cis female, 27, bi, ex-partner of Jon

Lora, Jon, & Liz moved in together May 2014.

Early July 2015, Jon broke up with Lora, because of her abusive and controlling behavior. Lora has a sublet for the month of July, while she figures out what she's going to do. Liz & Jon are waiting for her to figure that out, so that all Lora's things can be removed from the apartment.
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