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  #21  
Old 08-31-2013, 04:00 PM
JacobJT JacobJT is offline
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Kkxvlv,

Thanks for your response. I know I've probably come off scatterbrained and slightly negative in this thread, but I hope people can take into consideration that I've been coming from a place of crises and there's been a major war in my head. I've been looking at everything, from the most positive to the most negative outlooks possible, and I agree that I need a break.

I appreciate your advice and will consider it. But also I've felt like some of the 'just own your own feelings' or 'better yourself, find a distraction, find a hobby' bits of advice to be a bit scary. I mean sure, I can note a negative feeling and not make a judgement about it, but if poly were all about having negative feelings and just 'noting them', why would I want a life of that?! Or if I'm constantly trying to distract myself from uncomfortable emotions when she's out with others, isn't that just that, distracting myself? I want to pass through these things, not just distract and desensitize myself from them all the time. I'm sure there's more to this advice than I'm reading, perhaps this is just advice to get through the early discomfort and peace and serenity and 'compersion' emerge later? But I don't just want to use mind tricks to sit through or distract from constantly painful experiences.
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  #22  
Old 08-31-2013, 05:13 PM
Vinccenzo Vinccenzo is offline
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Its not to distract yourself that I advise a hobby or subject of study. Its to enrich you as a person. To find things inside you that make you proud of who you are as a person. To remind you that this, coming to terms with poly or not, isn't the only change you have the power to enact.
As well, the thing most often found to be sexy about a person isn't how much they get other people to listen to them (leadership qualities). Its that they have a passion. Some interest that drives them. This, by far, is a more reliable source of confidence in a person. Knowledge and skills can't be taken away so the confidence they lend isn't dependent on the behavior of others.
And doing this might help you see value in yourself. Value you know she will have to factor in when the abandonment issues most of us have rear their ugly head. It can help you know how irreplaceable you are.
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  #23  
Old 08-31-2013, 05:15 PM
kkxvlv kkxvlv is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobJT View Post
Kkxvlv,

I appreciate your advice and will consider it. But also I've felt like some of the 'just own your own feelings' or 'better yourself, find a distraction, find a hobby' bits of advice to be a bit scary.
Lets be clear, I didn't suggest you any of these things and to make a long story short, if you have decided this relationship is nothing more than constantly painful experiences, I would leave.

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I mean sure, I can note a negative feeling and not make a judgement about it,
No you can't, you already called it negative, that is a judgement!

Quote:

but if poly were all about having negative feelings and just 'noting them', why would I want a life of that?! Or if I'm constantly trying to distract myself from uncomfortable emotions when she's out with others, isn't that just that, distracting myself? I want to pass through these things, not just distract and desensitize myself from them all the time.
Now you've jumped to assuming this is what poly is all about, and that no one would want that, and therefore poly is terrible and not right for you or anyone. All while saying you aren't judging.

Personally I don't even think we're talking about poly. I don't see any reason for you to make a determination about poly at all. You are just trying to decide if you can be happy in a relationship with your specific girlfriend while she pursues dating others. So I think trying to figure out what poly is all about and whether it is negative or positive is a waste of energy. Don't bother.

I'm not suggesting you distract yourself or try to avoid the feeling at all. i am suggesting a short term trial period, where you only collect information from yourself. I am suggesting you just take notice of WHAT you are feeling rather than try to categorize it as positive or negative, trying to decipher what it means or what to do about it. You're driving yourself nuts overthinking. You are questioning your own thoughts and judgements so they aren't even valuable to you right now. I'm saying take a break and don't bother trying to figure it out for a set about amount of time. Then look back and see if what really matters to you has become obvious.

Quote:

like I'm sure there's more to this advice than I'm reading, perhaps this is just advice to get through the early discomfort and peace and serenity and 'compersion' emerge later? But I don't just want to use mind tricks to sit through or distract from constantly painful experiences.
I don't have any reason to believe peace and compersion arrive later, I think eventually you know for sure if being with your girlfriend makes you happy or miserable. Including the part about how shes wants to be with other people. There aren't any tricks, its just not evaluating every moment of your life and making decisions under stress that you have to second guess anyway. Negativity creating more negativity is a mind trick of its own you know.
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  #24  
Old 08-31-2013, 06:14 PM
Dolly4you Dolly4you is offline
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Default The Monogamy Jedi Mind Trick

Iím new to the polly world myself but from what I read it sounds like you may just not be ready yet. You have not made a deep enough emotional connection with your girlfriend for you to feel completely secure. So of course you are going to feel jealous. In your mind you are still wondering if you are good enough. Is she going to leave me for another guy? You know, the usual monogamy Jedi mind trick.

Until you are able to work through one-on-one with your girlfriend and are on solid ground then her dating other guys will not take you to the emotional brink.
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  #25  
Old 09-03-2013, 01:17 AM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobJT View Post
Thanks everybody, and thank you much for this Ariakas. It really sounds like you perhaps 'speak both tongues', and that's so refreshing. I've found few in the male dating advice/pua community who think anything positive about polyamory, and few in the polyamory community that speak 'game' or male dating/attraction psychology stuff. Actually it sounds like you not only speak it, but also embody it!
Honestly, I realized being poly wasn't any different than being monogamous. In the end, being yourself and being comfortable with that, is what makes you attractive. Alpha, beta, zeta or dolphin. Doesn't matter. Confidence and knowing yourself help you communicate and relate to people better.

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I've been looking for some people with both these understandings under their belt for some assistance. The poly people I've met in my area are nice enough, but many of them are very submissive, some even have cuckold fetishes, which is fine if that's what they're into but its definitely not my cup of tea.
It happens, poly is as individual as mono, maybe more so, since we understand our differences better at times and even embrace them.

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I'm definitely an early stage reforming beta nice guy, have been most of my 36 years with some periods of time of hyper confidence and authentic autonomy splashed in for good measure, but I usually would lapse back into my old characteristics fairly quickly. I was practicing some game when I ran into my current gf. Not in the artificial sense of routines or mind tricks, just in the sense of working on inner stuff, becoming a more confident and outgoing expression of myself, noticing old habits and social behaviors that were just ingrained in me so deeply they were like breathing, and trying out what it was like not to do them. I definitely started to exude a more 'alpha' side of myself, while still not contorting myself into someone that I'm not. And then I met my current gf. Things were very hot and heavy for a while, and still can be from time to time, but you know the story with newly reformed cases like me, I quickly lapsed back into beta behavior patterns as that has always been how I behaved in relationship. Recently with all the poly shake up I've sort of snapped out of it and noticed that I can begin building and stoking that initial level of attraction again from time to time, but I've been so torn up by this poly schtuff and all the talking about it and emotional drama that I quickly fall back into beta territory.
I don't think beta means what you think it means. Beta is like an alpha in waiting, at least thats my understanding. It doesn't imply a personality type.

Just like all alphas aren't raging douche bags. You can be a leader and not be an controlling asshat..

Just saying ..

Quote:
I've been thinking that there must be a more 'alpha', or even 'omega' response to polyamory, but being a in-process reforming beta it's very easy for me to justify some of my thinking as potentially 'omega' integrated beta traits , when in fact it's just beta crap again.
*shrugs* no more or less than regular society.

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I know to a lot of people this stuff sounds like non-sense, but hopefully maybe not. Just like monogamy is ingrained in us by our parents/teachers/religions/marketing/society, so is a bunch of crap about how to be a 'good guy', and a lot of it is beta submissive behavior which under the hood is often much more manipulative than 'alpha' behavior which tends to be overt rather than covert in it's motives more of the time. But also many Beta traits are just not attractive on an evolutionary psychology level. They tend to communicate lower value, lack of self confidence, attempts to control and manipulate, mask motives, etc.
Good guys don't have to be submissive.. again, personality vs actions don't always match up.

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So I'm just truly looking for a more alpha or omega perspective around polyamory so I can start to see my way out of this illusion that it is some secret feminine agenda to maximize pluralistic mating tendencies and play a better game of hypergamy.
It isn't.. period. .. but it is about making sure everyone is heard, understood and has safety to speak and be heard. Unless its a BDSM world, dominance isn't necessarily part of poly.. or any relationship.

Quote:
The thing is that I'm not just trying to game girls, I'm trying to have fun and date, but also have honest and loving responses and relationships with the woman (or women) closest to me. There are so few role models that I've encountered so far that understand game and polyamory, and this probably has at least something to do with the fact that I live in Michigan and not cali or ny etc., it's rather corn and potatoes out here still, even in the major suburbs in terms of semi conservative lifestyles and lack of population density.
Be honest, and be true to yourself, and be clear about your expectations, and don't pigeon hole your needs.

I think the approach as dating and having fun can work. But there are those who are "meaningful" relationship seeking only. Thats a tough balance to find but be honest. That way you don't game yourself into a bad reputation. Not all girls (not just poly) want to play the dating game. If you do.. be honest.

By the way, I understand what you mean by game, but a lot of people find it offensive.. just the way it is viewed.. might want to rework some of your vocabulary haha.. you aren't actually gaming the girls.. you want to date, have fun and see where that relationship gets you..

Game can have other negative connotations.
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  #26  
Old 09-03-2013, 03:42 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Sigh. This is meant kindly ok?

I don't know how you could have peace of mind if you are in the habit of talking to yourself inside your head this way. It is less than self-respecting behavior to talk to yourself so harshly. Just reading it makes me cringe.

I would like to lift these things up to you.

1)You could not be your own bully. You could talk to yourself in your head with self respect rather than put downs.

2) You do not "allow" her to date other people. She is not your property. She is in charge of her behavior. You are in charge of yours. Here? YOU have chosen to participate in concurrent relationships with her. If you have tried it on for a bit and come to find it is not fulfulling for you? You could ask to renegotiate or break up rather than tear yourself down.

3) You seem like you don't believe polyshipping is "normal" to you... yet you participate in it anyway. Could reflect on that behavior.

Quote:
Now if she weren't poly and were just a normal woman testing me to see what she can get away with or if I have any backbone that would be fair and true imo.
4) You seem believe love needs to be tested/proven. And that it is "normal" for people in exclusive monoships to disrespect their partners limits and go around pushing the envelope.

Quote:
Now if she weren't poly and were just a normal woman testing me to see what she can get away with or if I have any backbone that would be fair and true imo.
You have unhealthy seeming ideas about love and loving behavior toward partners. Could reflect on that.

5) You seem worried about not being able to compete with the other guy. Or be thought of poorly by other people if they find out your are participating in a polyship. The "If you have two honeys you are a stud. If she does, you are a cuckhold/doormat" thing perhaps.

6) You could listen to your poly friend.

Quote:
She was very supportive but also said that I need to be honest about my own proclivities and not try and force myself into a poly direction just because I feel like it's something I 'should' be able to do, or that I'm less of a person if I can't do it.
7) You do not seem willing to listen to your own feelings or respect your own personal limitations. I wonder if it is because you would rather overextend yourself than accept "Polyshipping is not for me" because that might lead to having to accept "She wants to polyship and I don't. We may need to break up" as well?

Everyone has a limit. If you are bumping up on one of yours this hard you could accept and honor it. To ignore it? That is not self respecting or caring for your own long term health and well being. Growth is a lovely thing... and it happens out there on the edges. But overextending self waaaay beyond limits? That's not healthy growth.

Quote:
But when my emotions start warring I hear "What kind of guy lets his girlfriend sleep with other men? A doormat beta nice guy weakling who has no self respect".
You could rewrite that in a way where you assume responsibility over your own actions instead of her actions. You do not OWN her. Could stop talking /thinking of her that way. You could rewrite that in a way where you stop being your own bully. Could leave evaluations out of it. Or if you are going to evaluate, evaluate your BEHAVIOR.

It could become...

"I agreed to sign up to participate in concurrent relationships. I find I am struggling with it. How does continuing this serve me? Well? Not well?"

At this time, you seem like you want to be willing to polyship. But you don't seem actually willing to polyship from joy in your heart and reaching toward something. You seem to do it from fear in your heart and fear of loss.

At this time, you seem like you want to be able to polyship. But you don't seem actually able to do it with peace of mind. You have intrapersonal skills that seem weak (ex: bullying self talk) and interpersonal skills that seem weak (ex: "letting women walk all over me")

You could cultivate more of these skills before trying to build a healthy polyship or a healthy monoship -- since you say your past monoships were unfulfilling.

Are you actually "less than?" Nope. All people have worth, dignity, and value.

Are you TREATING yourself with worth, dignity and value? Nope. You push yourself to beyond your current limits and treat you "less than" in your thinks and in your behaviors. How is this you being kind and self resecting to you?

You could treat yourself better than this.

You could take time to sit and reflect on that and how you want to treat yourself in future in both your thinking behaviors and your action behaviors.

HTH!
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 09-03-2013 at 06:56 AM.
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  #27  
Old 09-03-2013, 03:59 PM
JacobJT JacobJT is offline
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Thanks Ariakas,

Your responses are helpful. I understand that some of my language carries with it connotations that can be quite negative. It was nice to hear your response from someone who understands that's not always where it's coming from.

I've also been in crises so I know I was bandying about a lot of negative ideas and attitudes as I was definitely bouncing between extremes. I think I got called to task for it quite a bit in this thread, but that's fine. It's honestly all been helpful regardless.

Thanks again.
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  #28  
Old 09-03-2013, 04:12 PM
JacobJT JacobJT is offline
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Hi GalaGirl,

Thanks for your response. I have been bullying myself in my head for sure. It's one of those personality traits I gained from other aspects of my life (in recovery) and honestly I've been really good about not doing it but this poly situation has brought it to a front.

I'd love to step totally out of my current situation and be able to call time out, but it's kind of already in process. I understand that I am ABLE to take charge of my own life and call my own time out if needed, but it's not necessarily what I want to do at this time. But I agree that I need to rephrase a lot of my internal questioning.

The thing is that my current partner wants to try this. She has told me that I need to tell her if "I don't think I can handle this". She in the past said that she may be willing to try mono, but I know in her heart of hearts it's not what she wants, and she will likely feel artificially restrained by this arrangement. But this is definitely pushing me to my limits. It's bordering on unhealthy, but I feel like I've come to this point and I don't want to pull back now. We are aware that our relationship is at risk over this issue. But I do love her as a person, she is extraordinarily important to me and I don't want to lose her. I'd prefer to have tried and failed to have given up because I was uncomfortable. Another part of me moves towards the thinking that "well, if we're fundamentally incompatible we're going to lose each other anyways right? So what's wrong with trying to find out if it's possible or not?" But your right, I'm into that 'edge' zone in terms of healthiness.

Also, I really do want to find out if this is my orientation or if it's all just programming! I don't want to run away because I'm uncomfortable questioning a bunch of emotional impulses that aren't actually mine but just installed by society.

I don't know. I'm trying to find a loving response in all of this. Part of me is happier when I stop coming around forums and stop researching and stop talking to people about it and just tune back into myself and herself, but then some issue will come up and I'll go into crises/panic zone and be back to it all.

But I really thank you for your help. I'm trying to figure out if this is just me, or just society, or what.

There are times where I feel like I can have a totally loving response to her in terms of understanding that I don't own her, and understanding that this doesn't mean she loves me less (a big one for me). And I can feel that when I'm ok with things and reacting well she kind of blossoms and we have these really tender times together I can sense how much she appreciates the work I'm doing in trying this. But then some trigger will happen and I'll go off the deepend with stress, sleepless nights, paranoia, etc. and I'm back in it. I feel like sometimes I can see the other shore, and it looks peaceful, but then I'm right back in the middle of the stormy seas adrift. If there's any chance in hell of arriving at that other shore I don't want to pull back now! But if there's really not I don't want to risk death on the high seas either (sorry for the extreme metaphor! :P )

I understand I've been floundering a lot in this thread. It's just kind of where I'm at.

Thanks again for all your help, and any more advice you have is appreciated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
Sigh. This is meant kindly ok?

I don't know how you could have peace of mind if you are in the habit of talking to yourself inside your head this way. It is less than self-respecting behavior to talk to yourself so harshly. Just reading it makes me cringe.

...

You could cultivate more of these skills before trying to build a healthy polyship or a healthy monoship -- since you say your past monoships were unfulfilling.

Are you actually "less than?" Nope. All people have worth, dignity, and value.

Are you TREATING yourself with worth, dignity and value? Nope. You push yourself to beyond your current limits and treat you "less than" in your thinks and in your behaviors. How is this you being kind and self resecting to you?

You could treat yourself better than this.

You could take time to sit and reflect on that and how you want to treat yourself in future in both your thinking behaviors and your action behaviors.

HTH!
Galagirl

Last edited by JacobJT; 09-03-2013 at 04:18 PM.
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  #29  
Old 09-03-2013, 05:08 PM
JacobJT JacobJT is offline
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Like here's an example. Today my gf is going out on a little day date with her other friend. And I'm fine with that today. Admittedly the situation is fairly tame as it hasn't escalated to a point of physicality yet or anything and we have agreements in place to talk before certain stages of escalation. There was a certain part of me that was a little hurt because she very rarely has day time hours free and I often see her at the end of long nights when she's cashed out energy wise, and I was kind of like "hey, we never get that!" but I realized that it was likely in an effort to preserve our evenings, so I rolled with it. And today, even though it's a mild stress on my system, I'm kind of happy for her that she gets to go have this nice day and fun time.

But last week she suggested a potential similar day date and my feelings went all over the freakin place and I felt horrible about the idea.

So one day I seem fine, the next, crazy!

I dunno, it's those glimpses of the 'other shore', of me being ok with things, that make me think I've got a shot at this. But a day later I'll be back to crazy town!

Sorry, this just came up in the past hour so thought I'd add it for what it's worth. This 'sometimes on/sometimes off' thing I have going on.

Last edited by JacobJT; 09-03-2013 at 05:10 PM.
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  #30  
Old 09-03-2013, 05:26 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobJT View Post
Hi GalaGirl,

Thanks for your response. I have been bullying myself in my head for sure. It's one of those personality traits I gained from other aspects of my life (in recovery) and honestly I've been really good about not doing it but this poly situation has brought it to a front.
Makes sense. Recovery can teach us a lot about ourselves. But as addicts we can easily forget the many reasons we we addicts. The belief of control of ourselfs and our surroundings kept us away from sobriety.

Poly seems random and out of control at all times. Since you can't control your partners it can feel like pure chaos. In the end, you can only control yourself, your actions and your feelings. Be happy with that and stop struggling with those many situations around you, you can't control.Be happy with yourself, confident in what you do

If you ever need to reach out, I have been sober almost 3 years. Poly for 5... wow really.. and non-monogamous for almost 15..

Quote:
There was a certain part of me that was a little hurt because she very rarely has day time hours free and I often see her at the end of long nights when she's cashed out energy wise, and I was kind of like "hey, we never get that!"
Make your need known. It really isn't fair to you if she has a limited pool of energy and its always been used with new partners. My wife had health issues and it was always a negotiation to have her go out and partner up, and not have energy for life when she got home. She had to figure out a balance between life, lovers, and homelife. But she didn't realize she was missing that balance until I told her my specific needs.

Might help your "crazy town" feeling..

Cheers
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