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  #31  
Old 08-13-2013, 07:48 PM
northhome northhome is offline
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Originally Posted by willowstar View Post
BF and I are supposed to be together.
Sorry to be blunt - but who told you this? The Tarot? Divine Guidance? The Wicked Witch of the West? Or is it just a 'feeling'?

In my experience this sort of blind belief in 'destiny' (or whatever you call it) can be a real show-stopper when it comes to negotiation and healthy communication. I just saw a 10 year old poly relationship implode because of this very same dynamic.
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Last edited by northhome; 08-13-2013 at 07:52 PM.
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  #32  
Old 08-14-2013, 12:32 AM
willowstar willowstar is offline
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Originally Posted by northhome View Post
Sorry to be blunt - but who told you this? The Tarot? Divine Guidance? The Wicked Witch of the West? Or is it just a 'feeling'?

In my experience this sort of blind belief in 'destiny' (or whatever you call it) can be a real show-stopper when it comes to negotiation and healthy communication. I just saw a 10 year old poly relationship implode because of this very same dynamic.
Well, since I am a Witch, and I do read Tarot, and I DO believe in Divine Guidance, I could probably say Yes to any of these suppositions. However, it is simply my own belief that BF and I probably should have pursued being together all those years ago, but we just didnt. I agree that it is probably a pretty subjective and nonlogical way of determining whether or not a relationship is viable or in my best interests, but this is how I operate. I dont really intend to stop now.

I also believe that my husband and I were "meant" to be together, and my first husband who first brought me to Wicca and to poly, and all of the previous relationships before them. My personal belief system is that each person we meet is a teacher for us. Maybe it's destined, maybe its random. But I dont doubt that it's for a reason.
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Willow ~ 44yo bi woman, married to Bear (formerly known as TB) for 18 years
Bear-Maybe poly/maybe mono straight man, still feeling it out
Armadillo (formerly known as BF) - currently out of the picture. Depression is evil...
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  #33  
Old 08-14-2013, 02:46 AM
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idealist idealist is offline
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Originally Posted by northhome View Post
I just saw a 10 year old poly relationship implode because of this very same dynamic.
I would like to know more about that if you are willing to share.
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  #34  
Old 08-14-2013, 10:36 AM
northhome northhome is offline
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I would like to know more about that if you are willing to share.
The couple started off with a clear understanding that it was an open relationship. It morphed into them being primaries for each other, with lots of secondaries.

At some point one of them started to get 'guidance' about people they were supposed to have relationships with. Past lives, twin souls, soul mates, you name it. All fine and good until that meant having affairs with others (i.e. facilitating cheating).

When challenged the response was 'it was just meant to be. All my actions are OK as long as they come from love'. 'Open to feedback' was no longer part of the equation since decisions based on 'love' were not open for discussion.

The other one finally had enough of it.

I guess the lesson is, if you're going to live your life based on 'guidance', make sure that all of your partners know this in advance and that they are OK with unilateral actions you may take based on dreams you had that night etc. I'm not saying it's not a way to live, just that it can be pretty tough on everyone else.
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Last edited by northhome; 08-14-2013 at 04:00 PM.
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  #35  
Old 08-14-2013, 03:38 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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Well, since I am a Witch, and I do read Tarot, and I DO believe in Divine Guidance, I could probably say Yes to any of these suppositions.

What the heck ....youre wired into a higher power and you asking us

cant you cast a spell on poor Derwood and make this better ?


Quote:
My flexibility? I guess that means I continue to stay and try, to listen, to give TB time to work this out. I am not going out and just doing what I want (dating BF as much as I want, having a sexual relationship, making plans for the future for us to be together, etc). However, I will also not walk away from someone who needs me just as much as he does, and someone I need in my life.
One might see your flexibility as not wanting to do the dirty work. Have you talked to your husband about all the things youre not doing but would like to...intentions ....the plans for the future ? Knowing that might help him make up his mind on how to proceed.

Quote:
No, I will not choose between them, And I dont have to. HE can choose if he feels he needs to though.
With everything you written it sorta looks to me like you sort of have.

Does your husband and BF read this thread ?

Why dont you think you have to.... because neither guy is forcing that ...or something higher ?




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I have tried to explain that (for ME), my love for him is different, more comfortable because we have been together for so long. We have history,
years of living and loving together, children and shared experiences.
I think its good that you tried to explain this. In my own situation my wife (probably having read somewhere ) that verbal reassurance was important or helpful. It might be ...it could be if both parties have the same meaning of love. So in my case it was a little confusing at first. Then after I asked for clarification I'd say it wasn't helpful ...or something I wanted to hear so I asked her to stop saying those things.


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the 16yo is bright and intuitive and probably knows more than she lets on.
If she's been kept ed in the dark on your past poly relationships ....she might not take it well you hurting her father or the possible break up of the family
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  #36  
Old 08-14-2013, 11:53 PM
willowstar willowstar is offline
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Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
What the heck ....youre wired into a higher power and you asking us

cant you cast a spell on poor Derwood and make this better ? (
I so wish I could!!! However, I dont do such things. I believe in this little thing called Free Will.....


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Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
One might see your flexibility as not wanting to do the dirty work. Have you talked to your husband about all the things youre not doing but would like to...intentions ....the plans for the future ? Knowing that might help him make up his mind on how to proceed. (
What would be the dirty work here? I am open to hearing what you have to say, just not sure I understand. I am not leaving him to just "figure it out", I am certainly participating in conversations and talking about things. But I just realize that, ultimately, he does need to figure out what is happening for him and why he feels the way he does. I am willing to help him with that as much as I can. Restricting my contact or activity with BF does not make it better for him, and he has said so. His issues are really around our relationship.


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Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
With everything you written it sorta looks to me like you sort of have. (
How so? I am poly. I have two men in my life. One of them is struggling, yes. Would it be better if I walked away from BF in favor of TB? Maybe in the short run. But that is what I have been doing for 17 years. And I would be choosing one over the other. I am choosing to stay, and do the work, and help us both through the process.

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Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
Does your husband and BF read this thread ?(
I dont think either one of them has. I will ask them both if they would like to.

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Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
Why dont you think you have to.... because neither guy is forcing that ...or something higher ? (
[QUOTE=dingedheart;221949]I guess I feel like I dont have to choose because I am poly. And neither one of them is asking me to. No higher purpose there... hehe.


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Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
I think its good that you tried to explain this. In my own situation my wife (probably having read somewhere ) that verbal reassurance was important or helpful. It might be ...it could be if both parties have the same meaning of love. So in my case it was a little confusing at first. Then after I asked for clarification I'd say it wasn't helpful ...or something I wanted to hear so I asked her to stop saying those things. (
So true. I am not sure that me explaining my side of things is helping him very much. We have found that we often have different words for things, and this is one of the reasons why I have wanted counseling, to help us with the communication piece. We can each explain something that we feel is completely clear and obvious, and the other person just doesnt get it.


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Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
If she's been kept ed in the dark on your past poly relationships ....she might not take it well you hurting her father or the possible break up of the family
I agree. I had wanted to tell her soon after everything happened in the beginning. Just to set a precedent with her, about being honest about relationships, about not lying about where you are, etc. I felt it was a good thing to have in place with a 16yo girl. But BF was not ready for her to know (our kids are FB friends with each other, but not really "friends"), and then it became so challenging here at home that we decided to try and sort out what was happening before bringing her into the loop. She is very intelligent, and LGBT savvy, and open to having these types of discussions. But I want her Dad to feel like he is on board for that.

Thanks for your feedback!

Willow
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Just keep swimming, Just keep swimming... ~ Dori


Willow ~ 44yo bi woman, married to Bear (formerly known as TB) for 18 years
Bear-Maybe poly/maybe mono straight man, still feeling it out
Armadillo (formerly known as BF) - currently out of the picture. Depression is evil...
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  #37  
Old 08-17-2013, 06:34 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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Quote:
Quote:
What the heck ....youre wired into a higher power and you asking us
cant you cast a spell on poor Derwood and make this better ? (
I so wish I could!!! However, I dont do such things. I believe in this little thing called Free Will.....
NICE.....a witch with a code or ethics

Does your husband or Bf ever you the old joke .."omg my wife/GF is such a witch...no seriously shes really a Witch. "



Quote:
Quote:
One might see your flexibility as not wanting to do the dirty work. Have you talked to your husband about all the things you're not doing but would like to...intentions ....the plans for the future ? Knowing that might help him make up his mind on how to proceed.
What would be the dirty work here? I am open to hearing what you have to say, just not sure I understand. I am not leaving him to just "figure it out", I am certainly participating in conversations and talking about things. But I just realize that, ultimately, he does need to figure out what is happening for him and why he feels the way he does. I am willing to help him with that as much as I can. Restricting my contact or activity with BF does not make it better for him, and he has said so. His issues are really around our relationship.
Putting the marriage DOWN. Realizing the shift in feeling ...appreciative love ..."longevity love" (if that makes sense) the obligatory or pity time an attention ....pacification. AS opposed to being in love. Many many have said the same thing " i love him/her but not in that way ANYMORE . Life too short for either of you to except less ...IMO.



Quote:
Quote:
With everything you written it sorta looks to me like you sort of have.
How so? I am poly. I have two men in my life. One of them is struggling, yes. Would it be better if I walked away from BF in favor of TB? Maybe in the short run. But that is what I have been doing for 17 years. And I would be choosing one over the other. I am choosing to stay, and do the work, and help us both through the process.
The impression from what Ive read ....you had/have a 30 yr history with the BF. You dated ...where best friends since teenagers ...you have an unbelievable bond and connection some might call "soul mates" I dont think you ever used that word but that was the tone. On the other hand your description and feeling for your husband are in stark contrast.
He's emotional weak, frequently in a puddle upon your return...dates and sex where done out of obligation or to pacify the poor guy. Love wasnt talked about til late in the thread and as a marker of what you've done or had put up with.

An example :
"But now we have kids and responsibilities to them, and we would really like to keep our family intact if we can."

Quote:
Does your husband and BF read this thread ?(
I dont think either one of them has. I will ask them both if they would like to.
What did you find out ?


Quote:
If she's been kept ed in the dark on your past poly relationships ....she might not take it well you hurting her father or the possible break up of the family
I agree. I had wanted to tell her soon after everything happened in the beginning. Just to set a precedent with her, about being honest about relationships, about not lying about where you are, etc. I felt it was a good thing to have in place with a 16yo girl. But BF was not ready for her to know (our kids are FB friends with each other, but not really "friends"), and then it became so challenging here at home that we decided to try and sort out what was happening before bringing her into the loop. She is very intelligent, and LGBT savvy, and open to having these types of discussions. But I want her Dad to feel like he is on board for that.
You mean you think she open to these types of discussions in a vacuum...talking about such things in general ...or as it applies to her struggling hurting father. you and the new BF and it's effect on the marriage and family...and the BF family as well ?
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  #38  
Old 08-20-2013, 07:00 PM
willowstar willowstar is offline
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Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post

Putting the marriage DOWN. Realizing the shift in feeling ...appreciative love ..."longevity love" (if that makes sense) the obligatory or pity time an attention ....pacification. AS opposed to being in love. Many many have said the same thing " i love him/her but not in that way ANYMORE . Life too short for either of you to except less ...IMO.
I dont believe either of us is ready for this. I do believe we can make things better, for both of us. Yes, things feel different for me. I always assumed this was a normal and natural progression in a long term relationship. I know there are people who feel just as much in love with their spouse as the day they were married, but I think it is much more common for partners to fall into something more comfortable, companiate, and maybe less charged than when they first met. I wish I did feel that way, still. Truly. He is a wonderful man, and I do miss feeling that way, with him. But I can honestly say that I DO LOVE HIM. And I do tell him that every day.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
The impression from what Ive read ....you had/have a 30 yr history with the BF. You dated ...where best friends since teenagers ...you have an unbelievable bond and connection some might call "soul mates" I dont think you ever used that word but that was the tone.
Yes, BF and I do think of ourselves as "soulmates". We have talked about that together, and even with with my husband, all three of us together. I think my husband is my soulmate too. I think we have many, not just one.

BF were strongly connected when we were younger, but have also spent many years not in contact with each other. Almost 15 I think. We were busy raising our kids and living separate lives. First real connection again was about 4 years ago at a mutual friend's wedding. We sat with them, and it was amazingly wonderful for me, as a poly. I was there with my husband, my BF (then just a former high school love), and the best man was my ex~boyfriend too. Hubby knew all of this and was fine with it, knew I got a kick out of it. It was a lot of fun for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
You mean you think she open to these types of discussions in a vacuum...talking about such things in general ...or as it applies to her struggling hurting father. you and the new BF and it's effect on the marriage and family...and the BF family as well ?
Yes, I think she could wrap her head around it as an abstract concept. Whether or not she could do so when it's her own parents? Dont know. I will probably broach this subject with the therapist this week, even if just to find out whether we should let her know we are in counseling. She babysits the younger ones so we can go. So far, we just tell her we have an appt out, together. Have not told her why. But I dont have a good sense of whether it is good to let her in on what's happening, or not.

Poly is hard. Wish it wasnt. But, I am trying my best to do the right thing, which I am finding is not always obvious....

Willow
__________________
Just keep swimming, Just keep swimming... ~ Dori


Willow ~ 44yo bi woman, married to Bear (formerly known as TB) for 18 years
Bear-Maybe poly/maybe mono straight man, still feeling it out
Armadillo (formerly known as BF) - currently out of the picture. Depression is evil...
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  #39  
Old 08-22-2013, 03:13 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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Putting the marriage DOWN. Realizing the shift in feeling ...appreciative love ..."longevity love" (if that makes sense) the obligatory or pity time an attention ....pacification. AS opposed to being in love. Many many have said the same thing " i love him/her but not in that way ANYMORE . Life too short for either of you to except less ...IMO.
I dont believe either of us is ready for this. I do believe we can make things better, for both of us. Yes, things feel different for me. I always assumed this was a normal and natural progression in a long term relationship. I know there are people who feel just as much in love with their spouse as the day they were married, but I think it is much more common for partners to fall into something more comfortable, companiate, and maybe less charged than when they first met. I wish I did feel that way, still. Truly. He is a wonderful man, and I do miss feeling that way, with him. But I can honestly say that I DO LOVE HIM. And I do tell him that every day.
Strangely I get the not being ready part...there's the history, the kids , the upheaval ...nothing horribly wrong within the marriage.

How can you make the demotion , displacement and intrusion better when it hasnt really got going full speed. Meaning you have yet to have your desired relationship dynamic with your BF. You said you want it all ...unrestricted dates , sleepovers, split time, etc. etc

A few days ago a friend said that in therapy she discovered that guilt was the motivating factor in trying to make her two relationships equal. In fact she over compensated in one relationship due to her feelings in the other...so it actually wasnt equal at all thus upsetting thing further.

Could guilt ...or a chunk of guilt be masked as this companiate love.
Guilt of having these feeling ..guilt of what it could do to the family, etc



Quote:
Quote:
The impression from what Ive read ....you had/have a 30 yr history with the BF. You dated ...where best friends since teenagers ...you have an unbelievable bond and connection some might call "soul mates" I dont think you ever used that word but that was the tone.
Yes, BF and I do think of ourselves as "soulmates". We have talked about that together, and even with with my husband, all three of us together. I think my husband is my soulmate too. I think we have many, not just one.

BF were strongly connected when we were younger, but have also spent many years not in contact with each other. Almost 15 I think. We were busy raising our kids and living separate lives. First real connection again was about 4 years ago at a mutual friend's wedding. We sat with them, and it was amazingly wonderful for me, as a poly. I was there with my husband, my BF (then just a former high school love), and the best man was my ex~boyfriend too. Hubby knew all of this and was fine with it, knew I got a kick out of it. It was a lot of fun for me.
So I/we (other posters) got the tone and gist right You recaptured the one that got away "a" soul mate ...and you have a long history ( marriage) and commitments (kids ) which constitutes a bond ..love. Or love like close relative ....something other than passion or "being in love "

When did you develop your theory on soul mates ?


Quote:
Quote:
You mean you think she open to these types of discussions in a vacuum...talking about such things in general ...or as it applies to her struggling hurting father. you and the new BF and it's effect on the marriage and family...and the BF family as well ?
Yes, I think she could wrap her head around it as an abstract concept. Whether or not she could do so when it's her own parents? Dont know. I will probably broach this subject with the therapist this week, even if just to find out whether we should let her know we are in counseling. She babysits the younger ones so we can go. So far, we just tell her we have an appt out, together. Have not told her why. But I dont have a good sense of whether it is good to let her in on what's happening, or not.
I think that would be a very wise first step. But I dont see anyway around that conversation.

Quote:
Poly is hard. Wish it wasnt. But, I am trying my best to do the right thing, which I am finding is not always obvious...
And the right thing isnt always the most pleasant thing...and sometimes the hardest thing. Good luck
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  #40  
Old 08-23-2013, 09:09 PM
willowstar willowstar is offline
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Strangely I get the not being ready part...there's the history, the kids , the upheaval ...nothing horribly wrong within the marriage.

How can you make the demotion , displacement and intrusion better when it hasnt really got going full speed. Meaning you have yet to have your desired relationship dynamic with your BF. You said you want it all ...unrestricted dates , sleepovers, split time, etc. etc
I DO want all that, sure. But in reality, BF cant give me those things right now anyway. He has a wife and kids himself, and obligations on his side that prevent those things from happening. But someday, yeah, that would be ideal.

The summer has been very challenging for us. With all the kids schedules, we have only been able to really see each other once every other week. Which is very different for the "school year" schedule, which is once or twice a week. But most of that time is family time with a toddler, not even adult time. For that, we rely on texting and an occasional date at night (maybe once a month if we are lucky).

TB, on the other hand, still gets to see me every day, sleep with me every night, spend quality time (when we can carve that out in between work and kids, etc..). He still often feels like he doesnt get enough of me, even though proportionately, he gets WAY MORE. This is part of my fundamental issue, and we have disparity in ow much is enough and how much is "too much"....

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Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
A few days ago a friend said that in therapy she discovered that guilt was the motivating factor in trying to make her two relationships equal. In fact she over compensated in one relationship due to her feelings in the other...so it actually wasnt equal at all thus upsetting thing further.

Could guilt ...or a chunk of guilt be masked as this companiate love.
Guilt of having these feeling ..guilt of what it could do to the family, etc
Sure, I have thought of this. I have lots of guilt. Plenty to go around. That's why therapy should be beneficial.

I do think this was a motivating factor for taking a break from sexual activity with both guys. I needed to look at the situation as a whole. I was spending time with BF, building up all this sexual energy, and then not having an outlet for that. Bringing it home to TB was fun at first, but it started to feel icky, like I was giving him something that really belonged to BF and I. I did not like that. I am still trying to figure out whether that needs to be a boundary for me, not being sexual with TB after a date with BF. I want my sexual encounters to be genuine for each of them, and not just a way to expend energy, and not giving one person a "gift" that should have been given to someone else....





Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
So I/we (other posters) got the tone and gist right You recaptured the one that got away "a" soul mate ...and you have a long history ( marriage) and commitments (kids ) which constitutes a bond ..love. Or love like close relative ....something other than passion or "being in love "

When did you develop your theory on soul mates ?
Yes, TB and BF and I have had many conversations discussing how BF is the "one that got away". I tend to downplay that, myself. While I do think about what life would have been like had I made different choices, if BF had actually told me how he felt when he had the chance, the truth us we didnt make those choices. I dont believe in second guessing those kinds of things. I made the best choices I could at the time, with the information I had, and I have accomplished many wonderful things in my life. I can only go from here onward.

As far as my "theory" on soulmates, well I suppose it has evolved over time. Many years ago (over 10) I read a book by Caroline Myss, Sacred Contracts. It resonated with me in a way that I needed at the time, seeking connections with others who come into your life, and the fact that they are there for a reason. Not some "Divine, prescribed" reason, but just that each person was an opportunity to learn and grow. Some of these people would be more important than others, help me in greater ways, and I would grow by leaps and bounds around them. Others are wonderful companions but may not have a significant impact on my life overall.

Much of the subject matter of her book was based on Jungian archetypes and made sense to me in making sense of the roles I was playing in different relationships, as well as the roles people were playing with me. If a person comes into my life, and impacts it in a significant way, such that my life is never the same again, well that person would be a "soul mate" to me. It may not fit other people's definitions, but it is a word or term that allows me to explain that person's significance in my life.

Thanks for continuing to ask questions for me to think about.

Willow
__________________
Just keep swimming, Just keep swimming... ~ Dori


Willow ~ 44yo bi woman, married to Bear (formerly known as TB) for 18 years
Bear-Maybe poly/maybe mono straight man, still feeling it out
Armadillo (formerly known as BF) - currently out of the picture. Depression is evil...
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