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  #1  
Old 07-30-2013, 06:26 AM
darkwillows darkwillows is offline
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Unhappy Funny how things change in a blink...

One day I'm thoroughly in love with N, my secondary. And then in the blink of an eye, this person changed, morphed into something awful.
My husband and his secondary K were trying to find a video that N had downloaded (N was at work) and in the process of trying to find it they came across two video files. Of N having sex without protection.

Based on the decor in the room in the video it became clear that he did this while he and K were mono. He cheated. And videotaped himself having unprotected sex with another girl. Twice. Two different girls in fact. And then kept said videos to watch later. I cannot even begin to understand the kind of person who would do such a thing.

He tried calling me the next morning after I found out but I was just so thoroughly disgusted with him, so incredibly hurt that he would cheat on K, that I couldn't say much more than "you deserve to have a 10" rusty screw shoved down your dick." Not productive, but I felt better for saying it.
And yeah, he confirmed he took the videos without either girls's consent.

What makes it even worse is I know one of the girls. She told me that he had cheated on K with her and I didn't believe her.
Having known her half my life I know she's a pathological liar so I just dismissed it as more of her drama.
He's begged for forgiveness multiple times but as I told him, there are a few transgressions that are simply unforgivable. Cheating being at the top of the list for me. And really, why cheat when you know your gf wants to be poly ?

I guess I'm just incredibly confused since I can't seem to reconcile the absolutely repugnant person who did that and the person I fell in love with.
Was the person I knew just a facade? How do I begin to forgive him? I know I'll never think of him in the same way I used to and that makes me so incredibly sad.
Any thoughts or advice is greatly appreciated.
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  #2  
Old 07-30-2013, 06:45 AM
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Anyanka Anyanka is offline
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I have just found out something that my LDR guy has been doing over the past few weeks as well and it to has changed everything.

It's not as severe as what you describe and he told me himself as he didn't even think it was a breach of trust so, again, different.

But I completely get how your feelings have changed. Mine have to. I still have love but I don't have any trust and I cannot see how to reconcile anything.

We all have our lines in the sand .. perhaps you have reached yours and that is the end of the line for the two of you.

Sorry it went down that way.

I am not coming from a poly perspective here so I am sure that others will have far better insight and advice.

Hang in there.
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  #3  
Old 07-30-2013, 11:34 AM
bookbug bookbug is offline
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I am sorry. That truly sucks.

I am not familiar with your back story, and it is probably not relevant anyway, but wanted to say that upfront in case I am a bit off the mark.

What N did strikes me as incredibly childish. A lot of people have underlying childish streaks. It is unfortunate when they choose to act on them as he did. Given the fact that K is poly, it seems N enjoyed having a secret - a secret from K, and from the girls he videotaped without their permission (which is just as severe a violation of trust IMO). A power issue perhaps?

My question is how long ago did this happen? Recently? Or was it long ago enough that he may have matured since then? If recent, will he choose to grow up now? And you might ask yourself if it will help you to know his motivations, which means you need to be able to listen without interrupting him as he explains. Could be you wouldn't find the information helpful, but at this point, you really don't know why he did it. But maybe the fact that he did is all that is important. Only you know the answer to this.

I won't say this is totally impossible to fix, but it is a tough one.
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Old 07-30-2013, 01:08 PM
sparklepop sparklepop is offline
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Oh dear....

~grimaces~

Not good... not good at all. I understand what you are going through.


Quote:
I cannot even begin to understand the kind of person who would do such a thing.
Alright... I'm going to offer a different opinion here. There is a famous Lao Tzu teaching that goes: "Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habit. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny."

I have always been vehemently against cheating. I have also always been quite righteous and fiercely moral. I have also been guilty of judging people instead of actions. What N did was utter shit - on so many levels. For sure, if I found out that my partner had done this to me, I'm not sure I could forgive them, even if I could understand it eventually.

However... what I will say, as a differing opinion, using Tzu's teaching, is this:

N had thoughts of other women. Eventually, for whatever reason, they became actions. Then, they became a habit. His entire character (and thus, his destiny in your relationship) is now up for assassination. And so it should be - but not just by the two of you. If he has a shred of decency, he will have already been assassinating his character over this.

Another thing to consider is that, whilst all lies are lies, there are different types of internal responses to telling a lie. Some people feel nothing because they are in so much denial; some people feel awful, because they have a strong conscience; and some people get a sense of thrill, because they can get away with it. Just because N lied, it doesn't mean that he felt thrilled about lying. If he really is a wonderful guy, he more than likely felt either, or both, of the first two reactions. I do think that whilst some people are just, in short, complete shits, others are simply weak, cowardly, and this is why they end up lying.

When someone in a couple cheats and they decide to go to therapy to try to work it out, the relationships that grow to become even more successful and happy than they previously were are the ones where a deep level of *understanding* and forgiveness has taken place. This takes a lot of work. You cannot forgive someone without understanding why they did something in the first place.

Whether you can personally forgive him or not is down to you. You wouldn't be 'wrong' for not being able to. You simply may not emotionally be able to.

You said that you are looking for advice, so here is the advice I have if you do think that you would eventually like to find some way of moving past this with him.

Firstly, accept that it will be a long road. Resentment and doubt will take a long while to be reconciled. Secondly, realise that he is not a different person now - but, instead, that you have a more realistic view of his whole persona and history. You will never fully know him. We never fully know anyone. If you realise this, you may realise that this *might* pave the way to something even better than what you have already had together.

I would personally ask for a set amount of time to achieve space, silence and deep thinking - on both of your parts. A week, two weeks, or whatever you need. Negate the panic and grip of him desperately trying to call you. Essentially, send him off to think about the impact of his actions and give yourself the space to breathe.

Then, I would arrange to meet - in person. Allow yourself to hear him out. Create an environment where he is able to, and knows that he absolutely must, be completely truthful.

Once you have his reasons (and you should try to listen to them quietly), you should tell him how you feel and what your (understandable) concerns are for the future.

Over the past two years, I have changed my opinion somewhat about topics surrounding cheating, lying, selfishness and cowardice. Those four things are the things I detest most in relationships and the traits I cannot stand in people. However, we are all human. We all make mistakes. We all constantly change. Sometimes, we do absolutely, utterly idiotic things. Sometimes, we live in denial and excuse our behaviour (he was likely doing this by keeping the videos).

I had a bit of a revelation recently. What my GF did wasn't, by any stretch of the imagination, anywhere near as dishonest as this. It was a minor infraction; but a lie, nonetheless. She had assured me that she was only friends with someone; but, soon enough, he did something public that might reveal the real nature of their relationship to me, should I stumble upon it. Before I could see it, she came to me in tears, petrified of my reaction and told me the truth about what was going on between them.

My first internal reaction was the dark place we all go to - the thoughts of "I'll never be able to trust them again", "how could they lie to me?", "what does this say about their character and personality?" etc. I felt judgmental and uneasy about the actual *things* she had done with him - and also the lie itself.

Instead, for the first time in my entire life, I stopped myself from freaking out, bit down hard on my tongue, breathed carefully and listened to her. She went through stages of justifying her actions ("This wasn't cheating, I wasn't lying to you, I just needed to work out what I was doing with him and come to terms with it before I told you, you ask me not to share details anyway in general." etc etc) .. to moments of accepting that she knew she wasn't being as honest as she could, or should, have been. By not taking myself to the dark place and focusing on *understanding her reasons*, it was much easier for me to process her *actions* and not apply them to her *character*.

Basically, she 'lied' (withheld) because she was scared to tell me, because she was living in fantasy land, because she was in denial about what she was doing in the first place, because part of what she was actually doing with him, she was a little ashamed of and didn't fit with her normal behaviours. And you know? I think all those reasons are valid. And I can see where I had played a part in creating an atmosphere where she did feel scared to tell me. Once we *start* doing something we know we shouldn't be doing, it's easier to carry on doing it than it is to come clean when the event is at its smallest. We dig ourselves a hole. I only hope that if I ever find myself in a moral dilemma and find myself fucking it up horrendously, that she will show me the same compassion and understanding.

So... there's my advice... I hope that it helps. ~smiles~
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Last edited by sparklepop; 07-30-2013 at 01:21 PM.
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  #5  
Old 07-30-2013, 01:30 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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I am sorry. Learning that he's broken trust with K and then the women he filmed without their knowledge and you... that's a blow.

I guess I'm just incredibly confused since I can't seem to reconcile the absolutely repugnant person who did that and the person I fell in love with.

When faced with mixed messages? Words say one thing and actions another? I go with actions. Anyone can be a smooth talker who lies. How they behave is how they behave. You either did/did not do a behavior. What you SAY about what you did/did not do -- that doesn't have to be real. Best if talk and walk line up, but if not? Believe their walk.

Quote:
And really, why cheat when you know your gf wants to be poly ?
Because he's not able to be honest?

Or because he enjoyed the "thrill" of "getting away with something?"

Or both?

Quote:
Was the person I knew just a facade?
The picture you had of that person was wrong. The person was still him -- a smoothie talkin' trust breaker. The veil has been lifted.

Quote:
How do I begin to forgive him? I know I'll never think of him in the same way I used to and that makes me so incredibly sad.
To forgive? That's a decision in your brain. Mental health bucket. Could postpone making that decision a bit.

Could get STD screenings to take care of your physical health. That's seems more immediate.

Could give it some time and air out to trusted people to vent the feelings and take care of your emotional health. Could not talk to him. It JUST happened.

Could do whatever it is you do to restore spiritual health. You took a ding there -- yoga, meditate, journal, play/listen to music, attend your tradition's worship (if you have one), nature walks -- whatever it is that feeds your soul? Now's the time to be doing some of that.

One you have those in a better space? THEN could deal with mental health -- from a cooler head. Then could make the decision to forgive him. It is a choice you make. "I've decided to forgive ___. So I can move on with my life and leave this behind."

I do not mean welcome him back into your life, date him again, or allow him a chance to make amends. All those things could happen after forgiveness in some cases. But they don't come AUTOMATICALLY as part of the "forgiveness package" to me. Choosing to allow person to make amends and to reconcile the relationship? That part is separate from "decided to forgive" to me and entirely optional. That's part of the "Reconcile package." And some relationships I don't want to reconcile because severing ties serves me better.

I mean decide to forgive to ease your own mental health burden. To not give him more brain space than he deserves. Let it GO so you do not carry anger, sadness, resentment (and anything else this triggered) around as a new mental burden "gift" he's brought you. Some gifts you can trash. You don't have to carry around his baggage for him. You don't even have to tell him you forgave him. He can deal with his own discomfort in his mental health.

Quote:
as I told him, there are a few transgressions that are simply unforgivable. Cheating being at the top of the list for me.
He crossed a line then -- with you, with K, etc.

We are free to choose. We are not free from the consequences of our choices. This is what he chose. He can own the consequences.

If this is a hard limit for you -- keep it as such. Don't get sucked back in with smoothie talk and insincere apologies where he's just sorry he got caught if he tries any of that.

Focus on taking care of YOU.

Hang in there.

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 07-30-2013 at 08:07 PM.
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  #6  
Old 07-30-2013, 06:23 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Forgive-mental choice for self. Doesn't require returning privilege of relationship to him again.

Alternate view:

I had a long term affair, got pregnant, aborted baby and then got caught.
It was awful for everyone. It was wrong.

But-I was serious about making amends (note-NOT just saying I'm sorry).
I did a LOT of work on myself.
I made restitution where possible.
I gave years of time for trust to be rebuilt.

We are now a poly family.
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Old 07-30-2013, 07:12 PM
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Marcus Marcus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkwillows View Post
Based on the decor in the room in the video it became clear that he did this while he and K were mono.
So you are angry that you learned someone you are currently dating had sex with someone without permission while they were in a monogamous relationship? This is something that happened in the past, yes? This is something that happened when he was in a relationship which had nothing to do with you, right?

I understand that it can be shocking to discover that someone you know very well has done something, in the past, which is against your moral code. However, I think it is valuable to keep things in reasonable perspective and not let yourself surrender entirely to knee-jerk emotion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkwillows View Post
I cannot even begin to understand the kind of person who would do such a thing.
Someone who was horny, had a video tape, was not willing to deny himself the pleasure of sex with a new and willing partner, and was not willing to divulge it to his monogamous partner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkwillows View Post
"you deserve to have a 10" rusty screw shoved down your dick." Not productive, but I felt better for saying it.
You felt good about saying this? I don't think that is a good sign.

He told a lie and had sex with a willing partner... you wished genital torture on him... would you really consider this to be the higher moral stance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkwillows View Post
I told him, there are a few transgressions that are simply unforgivable. Cheating being at the top of the list for me.
I get that it is socially acceptable to completely lose ones mind over someone cheating. It is in basically all popular media, that you can jump up and scream, wale and gnash, call names, physically assault, ruin financial futures, abscond with their children... but is any of that rational?

As thinking adults who are accountable for our emotional outbursts we should strive to rise above this kind of reactionary zealot-ism. This person rubbed genitals with another person "without permission". How dare he... his genitals should be mutilated... right? No, of course not; that would be psychotic.

My advice? Grow up - talk to him and see what he has to say. Or leave him because you don't trust his word anymore... either way, this irrational hate is not going to help anyone.
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  #8  
Old 07-30-2013, 07:39 PM
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RainyGrlJenny RainyGrlJenny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkwillows View Post

And yeah, he confirmed he took the videos without either girls's consent.
This is what would freak me out the most. Taking sexual videos without obtaining consent is, in my opinion, abusive. To me, the cheating part is much less significant than the idea that someone felt their sexual desires were more important than their partners' rights to privacy and consent over their own bodies.

Personally, I could probably deal with the cheating issues, but it would be difficult to ever trust someone who violated his/her partners in such a way.
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  #9  
Old 07-31-2013, 01:22 AM
darkwillows darkwillows is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RainyGrlJenny View Post
This is what would freak me out the most. Taking sexual videos without obtaining consent is, in my opinion, abusive. To me, the cheating part is much less significant than the idea that someone felt their sexual desires were more important than their partners' rights to privacy and consent over their own bodies.

Personally, I could probably deal with the cheating issues, but it would be difficult to ever trust someone who violated his/her partners in such a way.
RainyGrlJenny,that was exactly what I thought when I found out about this. Followed by, "how many times did he do this? Did he make videos of K and I as well?"
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Old 07-31-2013, 01:32 AM
monkeystyle monkeystyle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
So you are angry that you learned someone you are currently dating had sex with someone without permission while they were in a monogamous relationship? This is something that happened in the past, yes? This is something that happened when he was in a relationship which had nothing to do with you, right?

I understand that it can be shocking to discover that someone you know very well has done something, in the past, which is against your moral code. However, I think it is valuable to keep things in reasonable perspective and not let yourself surrender entirely to knee-jerk emotion.



Someone who was horny, had a video tape, was not willing to deny himself the pleasure of sex with a new and willing partner, and was not willing to divulge it to his monogamous partner.



You felt good about saying this? I don't think that is a good sign.

He told a lie and had sex with a willing partner... you wished genital torture on him... would you really consider this to be the higher moral stance?



I get that it is socially acceptable to completely lose ones mind over someone cheating. It is in basically all popular media, that you can jump up and scream, wale and gnash, call names, physically assault, ruin financial futures, abscond with their children... but is any of that rational?

As thinking adults who are accountable for our emotional outbursts we should strive to rise above this kind of reactionary zealot-ism. This person rubbed genitals with another person "without permission". How dare he... his genitals should be mutilated... right? No, of course not; that would be psychotic.

My advice? Grow up - talk to him and see what he has to say. Or leave him because you don't trust his word anymore... either way, this irrational hate is not going to help anyone.
My thoughts exactly. He did something quite wrong, but most people do something quite wrong at one time or another. The world is filled with things to be outraged about, in fact. How we react says more about ourselves than about the transgression committed.
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