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  #31  
Old 07-10-2013, 01:53 AM
AnotherConfused AnotherConfused is offline
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Originally Posted by wildflowers View Post

I think I recall that you used to describe your husband as pretty well suited to you sexually. How much has your reaction to him changed?
Thanks. I remembered writing some time ago here that we had a very good sex life. I'm not sure where things went wrong.

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Originally Posted by wildflowers View Post
Could you schedule it, so neither of you is vulnerable to rejection? This would also give you the opportunity to get yourself in the mood a bit ahead of time.
I think that would make it worse. When I feel an expectation for sex, I get even more tense about whether I'm reacting the right way to his touch, etc.

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Originally Posted by wildflowers View Post
Could you lower expectations? View it as a chance to build comfort with each other, or to please the other or just experiment, and find some value in it even if it isn't great? Attitude can make a big difference.
I suggested we just remove the goal of sex from the picture and try just enjoying touch, but he thought I was trying to punish him for not wanting me to have sex with C ("If I can't do it with C, I won't do it with you either"). Last time we actually got anywhere, he gave me a nice experience with his hands and then I tried to do the same for him, but needed some help towards the end, and he told me later that asking him to use his hands made him feel rejected, punished, unwanted. Whereas I thought we were finally getting some spice back. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by wildflowers View Post
Would it help to just accept that you're not all that turned on right now?
I feel like we need to have sex. First, when he doesn't ask even though others (not just C but also flirty friends and acquaintances) indicate desire, I feel rejected by him. And second, I don't feel justified having a good sex life with C if I can't please my own husband. Maybe that's silly, but I do feel like I should fill my family's cup, in the various ways each of them need me, before I devote time and energy to someone else.

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Originally Posted by wildflowers View Post
I think there was a bit addressing how to rebuild comfort in a book called "Because it feels good". Although that's not its overall focus, I think that emotionally it resonated with me when I read it.
Thanks. I will look for that one too.
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  #32  
Old 07-10-2013, 02:00 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Last time we actually got anywhere, he gave me a nice experience with his hands and then I tried to do the same for him, but needed some help towards the end, and he told me later that asking him to use his hands made him feel rejected, punished, unwanted. Whereas I thought we were finally getting some spice back. *sigh*
What's that mean?

Correct me if my guess is wrong. But does that mean you shared a sexual experience with your spouse. And...

1) ...you wanted to finish with an orgasm so you asked him to finish you off digitally? And then he got sad that you got off with his hands rather than his penis? Is he having penis issues with your lover C's penis being "better" than his somehow? Hence all this emotional rigamarole?

2) ... you enjoyed digital sex with him so you tried to do the same for him and bring him sexual pleasure with your hands too. But couldn't bring him to orgasm and asked him to help you out and he got sad that you couldn't bring him off alone? Is he laying too much value on your ability to bring him to orgasm as "proof" of your attraction to him? Hence all this emotional rigamarole?

I'm not trying to be crude or blunt but it's hard to help you find out where the emotional problems might lie when things aren't clear about what behavior (X?) that triggered thinking the thoughts (ex: I'm not enough for her!") that next triggered the emotional response. (ex: I feel rejected, punished, unwanted!)

Could THAT also be part of the problems between you? Not enough direct, clear talk and too much euphamism/hinting around?

Then one thinks things are cool and the other doesn't and sulks and then it becomes mountain out of molehills?

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 07-10-2013 at 02:06 AM.
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  #33  
Old 07-10-2013, 02:03 AM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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I think she meant he fingered her, she came, then she was jerking him off, her hands/wrists/arms got tired, and she asked him to take over and he got all mad about that and attached all these bs emotions to it, when it was just that her hands gave out!
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  #34  
Old 07-10-2013, 02:14 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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I figured it was mutual masturbation of some kind but couldn't figure out where the break down happened.

Because he didn't really want to be trading handjobs and really wanted to be doing PIV and came to the sex share "pre-rejected" in his head?

Or if it was because her hand got tired jerking him off and he viewed this as rejection of him rather than a limit of the universe -- that hands DO get tired sometimes?

There's some communication breakdown somewhere in there.

Hands/mouths get tired, things chafe -- it's not a big deal around here to just announce "Time to change! Leg cramp!" or "Need more lube!" or something and just shift things around and keep enjoying the sex share.

How old are you guys, OP? Could andropause hormones be playing in there somewhere too?

But I think you pretty much nailed it here:


Quote:
He wants me to be happy and he knows I need this relationship, so I think he's justifying the "cheating" as not real cheating as long as there isn't real sex involved. I just don't think he could mentally come to terms with being married to a woman who has sex with someone else.
At this time, he has not mentally come to terms being married to a woman who has sex with someone else.

Trying to reconcile it as "it doesn't count unless it is PIV" is telling himself stories because to him it ALL counts as sex. And he's not ok with it. And is no okayness leaks over into his sex life with you.

So... now what?

Accept this is a hard limit for him -- he's not up for sharing you sexually?

Or has he accept this is a soft limit form him and could change in time... but accept that he needs help changing it? He can't manage to do it alone? Bottom line -- Is he wanting to do the work to come to terms with sharing you sexually and remain in polyship? Change his sex beliefs about sex/love? His culture's programming?

Or is he just going along for the ride secretly hoping it will all magically go away one day and not be a thing any more? I'd be worried about that possibility because maybe he's doing it "for you" and doing it against his own willingness? And THAT is the emotion root of the yucky rippling all through the system?

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 07-10-2013 at 02:34 AM.
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  #35  
Old 07-10-2013, 02:21 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Originally Posted by AnotherConfused View Post
T. . . I don't feel justified having a good sex life with C if I can't please my own husband. Maybe that's silly, but I do feel like I should fill my family's cup, in the various ways each of them need me, before I devote time and energy to someone else.
Well, that's a very big guilt trip to lay on yourself! Don't feed that monster. Are you sure you aren't just picking up on the guilt your husband might be feeling and owning it as your own? This sounds like you are both beating yourselves up.

Maybe your husband just doesn't need sex as much as you or C do, maybe his testosterone levels are low, maybe he doesn't even know what he wants because he's so inexperienced, maybe you should find another, better therapist.

Have you thought about a sex therapist? I have some friends who went to a sex coach and it made a drastic improvement in their sex life. It just kept getting better and better after that.
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  #36  
Old 07-10-2013, 02:34 AM
AnotherConfused AnotherConfused is offline
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Sorry, I could have been more clear. I mean he got me off with his fingers, and then I went to return the favor, and since my hand got tired he finished (while I caressed him). He was upset because it was a hand job rather than PIV sex. He thought that was a punishment, like I was trying to show him that C can't do anything else with me, so I wasn't letting my husband do anything else either.

Which is sad, because when C and I do those things, they are wonderful and exciting and satisfying, and C is perfectly content, but for my husband the very same acts make him feel hurt.

My thinking at the time was: my husband and I try to have sex. We end up feeling hurt. C and I don't try to have "sex" but just to please each other with our hands, and we do fine. Maybe removing PIV sex from the picture would allow me to have a good time with my husband too. But now I have learned that he finds hand jobs degrading, so we won't go there again.
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  #37  
Old 07-10-2013, 02:42 AM
AnotherConfused AnotherConfused is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
None at all? When was the last time you had sexy time? If not actual fucking, at least arousal and orgasms on both sides?

And how often do you and C get to meet and get it on? I am just wondering how bad it's getting for you!
Not sure how long it's been... weeks, anyway. The hand job thing was a couple of weeks ago I think.

C and I are technically supposed to get together once a month for an overnight, but we haven't had that since April, since my husband was struggling with it more lately. We've seen each other a handful of times since then, but briefly, not for private time. (He lives 5 hours away and passes through town now and then.) I get to see him this Saturday, overnight.

Yeah, I'm not getting any. I think it's ridiculous to be poly and celibate, but there it is. Someone was flirting with me recently and remarked that he was single and had no outlet for the effect I had on him, whereas I had multiple avenues for release... You'd think so, wouldn't you? Sad, sad.
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  #38  
Old 07-10-2013, 02:55 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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You state that he doesn't know you very well in an earlier post about squeezing your legs when you don't like that. You don't seem to know him very well either if you didn't know handjobs for him don't rate til now either.

You cannot magically mind reader each other. Tastes and preferences can change.

How about making a date to check out the check list below and get to know what DOES rate for each of you then? Get reacquainted?

http://openingup.net/wp-content/uplo...ecklist-OU.pdf

Could copy and paste relevant bits to Word or something before printing so he doesn't have to know it's an "Opening Up" thing if you think that would make him not want to do it with you as a "getting to know each other again" exercise.

Could see what things you are willing /not willing to do those together. And how high it would rate. Then go try some!

Does he want PIV at every sexual encounter? If you are up for that, go with it then. If you don't, don't. But reassure him it isn't a punishment thing. It's an "I don't feel like that right now I rather do X!" thing. Your body is yours. You share it how you want to.

But taking a step back from the trees a bit and checking out the forest level view....

Maybe he thinks you punish him with sex because HE is punishing YOU with sex and the no PIV limit? Could ask him that.
"Do you think I punish you with sex when ____ happens because you are punishing ME somehow with the no PIV limit? Do you know I am totally ok honoring that limit?"
Maybe you being ok with it backfired. You weren't "supposed" to be ok with it? He meant it as a punishment and you were supposed to be unhappy with C because of it and dump him without DH having to ask that of you (and thus risk you picking C instead). But here you are having a great time with C without PIV! Neither of you is suffering! While he is! Now what is DH supposed to do? (<-- is that the line of thought he is on?)

And maybe to clear the air you could ask...
"Do you think I punish you with sex? Because you punish me with the no PIV sex thing? Because really you don't want to be sharing me sexually with anyone? But don't say it straight up?

And you tried to be in polyship to please me (and / or not "lose me") but came to find it sucks for you and now wish you never went there in the first place?"
Was any of that aired out in therapy?

Could make up your mind what your main goal is here.

You aren't going to get them all in one go. You have a lot of layers going on there.

But if you crave emotional intimacy most of all... going to have to start tackling having the hard conversations, asking the hard questions, risk being vulnerable to each other, face some not so great sides of each other, and... still choose to be willing to be together and willing love each other anyway...warts and all.

That's how emotional intimacy is built to me. By taking the risk to be emotionally laid bare and risk being emotionally hurt to find out what you need to know.

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 07-10-2013 at 03:07 AM.
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  #39  
Old 07-10-2013, 03:02 AM
AnotherConfused AnotherConfused is offline
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Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
Is there some guilt thing here to resolve on your end with that? Like it would be ok to give yourself permission to love C and DH if only DH also had someone else to "make it even" somehow? And because he isn't doing that, you are "stuck in guilt" and hello resentment toward DH?
Bingo! But how do I "unguilt" myself? He doesn't want me to have a boyfriend. I want a boyfriend. Married women don't have boyfriends (that's the culture talking).

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Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
It isn't only DH's having to do emotional work with "I am enough for her" kind of stuff and not going all off into the land of "Why's she got to have 2? Aren't I enough for her? " thinking patterns? He has "pre-decided" your rejection of him, so then it comes out in not wanting to initiate sex?
No, the sexual rejection thing is a little different. In the beginning of our relationship, sometimes he'd be interested in sex, and I would not be. I was not entirely recovered from a bad relationship in which I was pressured for sex every morning and every night, plus I had undiagnosed nutritional deficiencies from celiac disease, so that I often had a very physical reaction to being asked for sex I didn't want (shaking, shutting down). He felt rejected and decided it wasn't worth trying to initiate sex. For many years I was very relieved by this "freedom" from ever having to say no to sex. And then we got busy with raising babies. And then my sexuality returned, a few years ago, and I realized I had a husband who seemed to get by just fine whether we had sex or not, and that felt bad to me.

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Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
Maybe expand the definition of sexy time to be less pressured "sensual time?" Kissing, hugging, making out, taking showers together -- sensual time. Could reframing it that way take the pressure off?
Yes, but I feel like now if I suggest these things he'll think I'm trying to limit him to what he allows with C, and decide I'm punishing him. I think I need to ask him to read this thread.

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Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
It sounds like maybe you know what you want to do/resolve/accomplish but need help with the HOW of it?
But do you know that HIS goals are? For himself and for the marriage? And are they compatible goals with yours?
He wants us to stay together. Of course his dream future involves me returning to monogamy, but he's not holding his breath. He wants us to have an active sex life. He already read the 1st 70 pages of Intimacy and Desire.

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Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
Emotional intimacy can happen not just through sex (physical intimacy) but through talking (mental intimacy). When was the last time you guys had a good heart-to-heart kind of talk?
He's not a talker, and I've been telling him that it leaves me feeling excluded. It's just not his nature to chew the fat. He said he doesn't want to burden me with his problems when I have problems of my own, but I told him that helps me feel wanted as a wife. He said he needs to practice his conversation skills. I don't feel like I really am "allowed in". But I think that's his personality, and not a willful attempt to shut me out.
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  #40  
Old 07-10-2013, 03:06 AM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Ohhh, enjoy Saturday night, girl!

Maybe your h reminds me of my ex h too much and that is why I get so pissed off at him. All this reading into things and grudges and sulks. It just reeks of low self esteem and not owning his shit. And all the coddling and "trying" on your side isn't going to bring up his self esteem. That has to come from within.

Yes, my ex was a "wonderful man" and a "good dad" too.

But I ended up just losing all respect for him. Fuck, I gave him 34 years and he hadn't ever grown out of those attitudes. I do not recommend you give your h 34 years of your life.
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miss pixi, 37
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