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  #21  
Old 05-31-2013, 08:38 AM
Tommy29 Tommy29 is offline
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Originally Posted by AnnabelMore View Post
Hey, OP. Sorry about all the harshness you've been receiving here. My impressions/advice --

You have a friend/lover who you've known for several years. You're planning to do a trial move-in with the possibility of a long-term commitment (marriage). You have an open relationship, and both have the freedom to get involved with other people emotionally and physically, but right now neither of you is involved in any other serious emotional relationships, just a number of physical ones. Your other involvements take the form of casual sex, hers take the form of informal sex work (no judgment whatsoever implied by calling it sex work -- I know it's easy to say that, but I actually mean it --that just seems to be what it is, exchanging sex for money). You're concerned as to whether or not you can form a deep bond with this person in the context you've created for yourselves, or whether her involvements with other people will keep you from emotionally committing to her. You also worry whether she's truly willing/able to commit to you.

Sound right?

I think there are a few things to consider here.

1) Three months may not be enough time to decide whether a serious commitment is a good idea. People can still be on their best behavior for the first few months of a relationship -- you don't usually *really* get to know them, warts at all, until a little further in. I imagine this is true also for a major shift in a relationship -- you may get to see the best side of her as a roommate/partner in those three months, and then find that things change down the line. Why not just plan to live together for as long as it makes sense for both of you, and leave the serious commitment for when it really feels right? What's the rush?

2) If you do decide that a serious commitment is what you both want, marriage may or may not be necessary. Marriage ties you to another person legally. If you don't think of it as a religious thing, then the legal aspect is the ONLY difference between marriage and any other type of commitment ceremony. Is being legally tied to another person, half your property being theirs, etc., really right for you two? Why? That takes a HUGE amount of trust and, if it doesn't work out, you two will be able to really screw each other over if you're married (divorce proceedings!). I'm not saying it couldn't ever be right, but if you're still having such fundamental doubts, I would hold off on making anything legal until years down the line. I just don't see what benefit it would confer to either of you, and I worry that you're considering it mainly because it's what society tells you a committed relationship has to look like. Not true.

3) Are you truly ok with an open relationship? This is where your most serious questions seem to be. There are two parts to this.

3A) Are you ok with her being with other people on an emotional level? I'm thinking of this thing you said -- "She makes statements sometimes that send a ping of pain into my body. One recently was her talking about another guy and she said something akin to "yeah i think he is worth the effort, i actually like him, hes probably the only one in the world i would put that much effort in for." She is not being cruel in telling me this... we are just really solid friends and shes being honest...this is her bf that dumped her.".

It sounds like this really hurt you. I can see why -- "the only one in the world" makes it sound like she puts him above everyone else, even you... again, why would you marry someone, which you can only do with ONE person in the world at a time under our legal system, when you're not their #1 priority. So there's that question, about this specific guy -- does she really care about him more than you, would she leave you for him if he asked? But then there's the more general question, how would you react if she didn't put him above you, just on an equal plane, but wanted an equal emotional relationship with him or with someone else? This is where "polyamory" actually enters the picture. Do you believe that people can have functional, honest, respectful, loving relationships with more than one person? Do you believe that you and she have the communication and time-management skills for that? There are some great writings at www.morethantwo.com that might help you feel out whether this is a path that makes sense for the two of you.

3B) Are you ok with her being with other people on a physical level? You said -- "Today i messaged her something random and she replied "I'm getting fucked as i write this lol." It hurt and my natural inclination is to care less about her and pull my emotions away." If she's doing sex work (which, again, is what being a gold digger seems to be to me, if in a more informal way), being physically intimate with other people is part of her every day experience. It's what she's chosen to make her happy and to pay her bills. You need to be able to accept this 100% in order to be with her. If you find that it makes you pull away and grow cold, then, no, I'm sorry, this is not going to work unless you can find a way to get over that. This video may be of help to you -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=FTdBXLCo1Qk

4) Is she the right one? Let's say you work out all of the issues above. That still doesn't mean this is the right relationship for you, necessarily. You say -- "I love her a lot but I feel like she doesnt love me the same way... i think i would give up alot for her... but she woudlnt me... and so i think my pulling away emotionally and not wanting to marry her is justified..."

Does she love you as much as you love her, would she sacrifice for you like you would for her? These are crucial questions. Don't go jumping into anything without knowing the answers... there's no big rush!! Take the time to really learn her heart and mind. ASK her these questions, and, better yet, pay close attention to her actions, how she treats you. When something is important to you and she needs help, but it would be inconvenient for her to be there, does she do it anyway?

And then you say -- "but hten i also feel marrying her and sleeping with other women on the side would be a baller situation that i would like... and if id idnt i would miss out on a lifestyle id enjoy logically... I'm so confused.....

Make sure that you're not just doing it because it makes sense "logically". Your gut has to agree with your head, or you'll be miserable in short order. What makes you think you couldn't have this "lifestyle" -- a committed, caring relationship and casual encounters on the side -- unless you make this particular commitment to this particular women? What you're describing actually isn't that uncommon. Call it polyamory (which would be the right word if you're open to forming emotional bonds with other people), call it swinging, call it an open relationship, it's everywhere. Don't jump into something that feels wrong because you think this is your last chance to have the life you want.

Good luck!!!!
Thank you for all this advice. Um there is something i should have mentioned she isnt a U.S. citizen. So we will be having 3 months to decide if we want to marry. Well there are certainly multiple parts of me... which makes us complicated as people. But I'm not exactly okay with her seeing other people... but im also not okay with us being only together. Because i would not be happy if i could only see her... lol She told me recently that she has been fucking this guy.. for a long time over a year and she emotionally always wants him... like no one she has ever been with... but he also emotionally manipulates her. She also said she could be with him if she wanted to.. but she is choosing to come and be with me and leave him. But the fact that she has fucked him for so long leaves her emotionally closer to him even though she is making the choice to not be. And to be closer to me.

She also told me recently she would give up being a sugar baby for me if i wanted her to. She was doing it as a way for me and her to be together because before she couldnt handle the idea of being with me while i was with other women. But it is soemthing she wants to do. i didnt know this when i wrote the original post.. it does make me feel like she woudl give up alot and really cares about me etc.


I mean i care about her more than she cares about me r now... but she has cared about me more than i cared about her in the past...

hmm i dont feel like its my last chance or anything. Infact i feel like i could probably find someone better if i waited... but i think its a good time for me in my life to kind of make house with someone and find the woman whos going to be most important to me... i also think she has a huge potantial to be that more than most women i have met.
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  #22  
Old 05-31-2013, 08:39 AM
Tommy29 Tommy29 is offline
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Originally Posted by Dagferi View Post
Look you two can not live like Caligula on a Bender and expecitect to be able to form a healthy core relationship. If you want to have a stable home to come home to then you have to build that relationship first. Meaning if you two want to build a life together you need to focus on the two of you and stop playing around with others until you have a solid foundation.
hmm that makes sense but wont that be even harder on us when we all of a sudden change from being only together to being with other people?
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  #23  
Old 05-31-2013, 08:51 AM
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"sugar babbying" "sugar daddying" and "gold digging" are forms of prostitution, not polyamory.
There are forms of the Daddy/babygirl relationship and it's varients that include a "Sugar Daddy" element. It does not mean there is always an absence of emotional and/or romantic attachment.

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Rubbing your naughty-bits together with the naughty-bits of more than one other person within a given time period does not mean you are "poly", it means you fucked more than one person within a given time period.
You can be poly (have the potential of multiple romantic relationships) and also enjoy rubbing your naughty bits with more than one person in any given time frame. You don't have to love all the people you fuck to be poly, you don't even have to currently love more than one of them. There just has to be the potential for any of those relationships to involve a romantic attachment.

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I just want to make sure you know what these big words mean.
Even if you do know what it means, it doesn't mean that you can't either have a sugar daddy arrangement, even one which doesn't involve love and is prostitution, or have one night stands. Prostitutes can be poly too. Prostitutes are actually capable of having loving relationships too, believe it or not. As are people who have one night stands.

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This situation is so not poly.
I guess not if you believe people who have casual sex are automatically discounted from the poly label.

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OP you can spin your life style all you want but do not label it as polyamory to make yourself feel better.
Being labelled poly could only console someone if we went with the idea that polyamory is superior to other relationship styles. That isn't something I subscribe to.

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To me, it is no wonder you are involved with a chick who fucks men for their money - you and she are very much alike! You use women for sex, she uses men for money.
This is an attack on sex workers. If someone consents to a one night stand, they are not being used. Regardless of whether the OP wants to spin it like that. If I agree to fuck someone I met in a club, I know it's more than likely going to be a one night stand and when I say yes, I am saying that not only am I okay with that, I actually want it.

To the OP - just work out your boundaries and communicate them to her. Good luck.
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  #24  
Old 06-01-2013, 06:18 AM
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To me, it is no wonder you are involved with a chick who fucks men for their money - you and she are very much alike! You use women for sex, she uses men for money.
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Originally Posted by london View Post
This is an attack on sex workers. If someone consents to a one night stand, they are not being used. Regardless of whether the OP wants to spin it like that. If I agree to fuck someone I met in a club, I know it's more than likely going to be a one night stand and when I say yes, I am saying that not only am I okay with that, I actually want it.
Not an attack on sex workers at all. If you actually knew anything about me, you would know I wouldn't do that. I don't have anything against sex work - but we don't know his gf is a sex worker. All we know is that she fucks guys to get money from them, but lots of women do that and aren't professional sex workers. I wouldn't categorize her as that, necessarily. OP hasn't confirmed whether she is or isn't a sex worker - or did I miss something.

Sheesh, attacking sex workers. [sigh]

What I was saying is that the OP and his gf are similar in personality and goals - they see people for what they can get out of them. They are users. It should also be obvious that my saying that does not mean the other people don't equally want to be used, or to get what they can get from them.
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  #25  
Old 06-01-2013, 07:51 AM
Tommy29 Tommy29 is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Not an attack on sex workers at all. If you actually knew anything about me, you would know I wouldn't do that. I don't have anything against sex work - but we don't know his gf is a sex worker. All we know is that she fucks guys to get money from them, but lots of women do that and aren't professional sex workers. I wouldn't categorize her as that, necessarily. OP hasn't confirmed whether she is or isn't a sex worker - or did I miss something.

Sheesh, attacking sex workers. [sigh]

What I was saying is that the OP and his gf are similar in personality and goals - they see people for what they can get out of them. They are users. It should also be obvious that my saying that does not mean the other people don't equally want to be used, or to get what they can get from them.
Im really surprised to find so much criticism and judgement and things made personal here. I guess when i think about it it might make sense. The way my life is offends and threatens the way some other people live their lives. The same way a monogamous couple might feel threatened by the idea of polyamory and attack it. Before anyone says "I wasn't doing that at all!" I just have to say... we are all capable of acting critical of things that threaten our reality. I'm guilty of it at times.

Anyways to be honest... I know my value to women most often when I sleep with a woman at a bar or club. Its her who tries to get me to sleep with them. Its her who drags me around with them throughout the night. Its her who takes me home with her. Its her who kisses me, who initiates sex with me. When we walk away from the situation its her who feels like she has gotten something she needed out of what happened. I think some people here are assuming i am going out and using women for sex. I just love getting to know women i love finding out small intimate details about what makes them who they are and I love following our friendship to wherever that leads. Its true many women i eventually choose not to have sex with. I'm sure they are marriage material and fuckable... to someone else but not to me. Its not personal often its the situation or I find them higher risk than average for std's. Maybe they say or do something that i just dont approve of... I dont judge them but there are people i assert my free will not to sleep with. Some women dont put in enough effort to attract me. Some women dont put enough effort in themselves to make me interested.

I think there are some people that would find it offensive what has been stated about women here and men. To assume that women are just so dumb and helpless they are sitting out there in bars... vulnerably wandering until they are taken advantage of by some MAN. Seems like too many ugly stereotypes in these assumptions... The reality is I am just a niche guy who women at bars and clubs feel comfortable around. Often they are alone and traveling and single and want some adventure... or they just broke up with a boyfriend... or they just have been single too long. Many of them admit to me they come out to find a guy. Many of them are using me for sex and dont care about me at all.... Honestly I care about the women i get to know I remember all of the women's names i've slept with... i know details about their lives, ambitions, beliefs, etc. Probably most of them dont even remember me lol. I'm okay with my predicament but it used to really offend me that women used me for sex and threw me away afterward... Yes this may have angered you cause you thought this was what i was doing to women.... and Yes women out there aren't any better than men out there. But the women i sleep with all have free will, they all enjoyed themselves, I get the sense from them that they really needed to find me... like im doing a public service. Many of them thank me.. some of them tell me its been years and they really needed what i gave them. Some have cried and as i held them after while thanking me.

These are not dumb women easily taken advantage of... because there are 100's of other men hitting on them and not fucking them. So its kind of offensive to assume that what is going on is im taking advantage of them. Also i would love to see alot of these women again... but the truth of the situation seems to be that theres a high turnover rate for these kinds of interactions. Not a lot of these women are in places in their lives were they want to meet someone whos guna be a resident in their life. And probably meeting me the way they meet me isnt the way they want to meet someone either.

I'm fine with that... and so are they.. so why aren't you?
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  #26  
Old 06-01-2013, 09:31 AM
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I'm fine with that... and so are they.. so why aren't you?
I am perfectly fine with it. I really don't care what you do. Why would you think it mattered at all to me, just because I offered an opinion? I read your post, had a few thoughts come to me, and shared them. That's all.

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Originally Posted by Tommy29 View Post
Im really surprised to find so much criticism and judgement and things made personal here. I guess when i think about it it might make sense. The way my life is offends and threatens the way some other people live their lives . . . Before anyone says "I wasn't doing that at all!" I just have to say... we are all capable of acting critical of things that threaten our reality . . . Yes this may have angered you . . .
Are you talking about me? I really don't see how an anonymous stranger on the internet could "threaten my reality." That makes no sense at all to me. My reality isn't affected by how other people live their lives unless they are a part of my life. And I'm not angry. Not just because I have nothing against casual sex, but I don't know you. You could be making all of this up (it's the internet, after all), so why would I bother getting angry? That would be a waste of my energy.

If people would just imagine my words spoken softly in a calm, unemotional tone when they read what I write, they would know I am simply either offering an opinion, a viewpoint, some suggestions, and/or stating the obvious. Just being straightforward with no emotion behind it. I never said nor implied that any of the woman you hook up with are dumb. I never said nor implied that they weren't getting something out of their liaisons with you. The gist of what I said was that it was no wonder you and your friend are drawn to each other because you seem to create very similar dynamics in your interpersonal interactions.

In your first post, you seemed to state that you want something more satisfying than what you've been experiencing in your trysts and one-night stands, and so I offered my opinions so you could see another perspective, maybe something you hadn't before, and consider that your relationships reflect what you put into them. You can take or leave anything I have to say - doesn't matter one bit to me and I'm not really interested in much more than what's already been said. Good luck with everything.
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Last edited by nycindie; 06-01-2013 at 09:44 AM.
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  #27  
Old 06-05-2013, 09:03 PM
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Um there is something i should have mentioned she isnt a U.S. citizen. So we will be having 3 months to decide if we want to marry.
So it's a "marry so she can get her citizenship" kind of situation? If this is a doing a friend a favor kind of marriage then don't try and shoehorn it into something that it isn't. People most often get into relationships because they have a connection that they want to explore - not the other way around. It's ok to let a relationship exist on its own terms.

I would say that if you decide to go through with the marriage, no matter how you feel about each other, PLEASE get a prenuptial agreement.

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Originally Posted by Tommy29 View Post
But I'm not exactly okay with her seeing other people... but im also not okay with us being only together. Because i would not be happy if i could only see her... lol
I would say this is poly... it's just an example of really gross, hypocritical poly. People make these kinds of agreements all of the time though, so if she's ok with you deciding for her what she can and cannot do with her emotions and body then that's for her to decide.

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Originally Posted by Tommy29 View Post
She also told me recently she would give up being a sugar baby for me if i wanted her to. She was doing it as a way for me and her to be together because before she couldnt handle the idea of being with me while i was with other women. But it is soemthing she wants to do. i didnt know this when i wrote the original post.. it does make me feel like she woudl give up alot and really cares about me etc.
It does sound like she would do quite a bit of redefining who she is for your sake. Would you consider this an expression of her caring about you? It's entirely possible that this is simply her being codependent. Keep your eyes open and be honest about what you are seeing, is all I'm suggesting.

I can't tell if there is a language barrier, if you are in a hurry when you write, or what... but at least from this end it sounds like you are all over the place and really have no idea what it is you are looking for. While I understand there is an arbitrary external stop watch on one of your decisions I would strongly consider you take the time to slow down just a bit and do some reflecting. Read through these boards critically, pick up Ethical Slut or one of the other many books on open relationships.

Or... dive in and see how it turns out... just take responsibility for your decisions.
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  #28  
Old 06-06-2013, 09:49 AM
london london is offline
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Nycindie: you referred to the women that the OP has catwalk [casual] sex with as being used more than one time. No decent person would condone someone being used outside of a consensual kink based interaction. So it's either that you are okay with the idea of Pierre [people] being used non consensually, or you think that these women could/would not agree to casual and/or random sex, do he must not be forthcoming about his intentions with them.

Last edited by london; 06-06-2013 at 06:02 PM. Reason: to rectify autocorrect errors but left the errors for the Lolz
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  #29  
Old 06-06-2013, 02:00 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Originally Posted by london View Post
Nycindie: you referred to the women that the OP has catwalk sex with as being used more than one time. No decent person would condone someone being used outside of a consensual kink based interaction. So it's either that you are okay with the idea of Pierre being used non consensually, or you think that these women could/would not agree to casual and/or random sex, do he must not be forthcoming about his intentions with them.

"Pierre?" "Catwalk?" Who is Pierre and where is this catwalk he's shagging on?
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  #30  
Old 06-06-2013, 06:00 PM
london london is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
"Pierre?" "Catwalk?" Who is Pierre and where is this catwalk he's shagging on?
Haha autocorrect catwalk = casual Pierre = people

Pierre sounds like a sex machine though. Naughty boy
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