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  #61  
Old 05-15-2013, 11:45 AM
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pollyanna pollyanna is offline
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as i posted before, i sort of did what you are doing, altho I stayed in the US. It's a hellacious nightmare at worst and extremely stressful at best. I think you are very fortunate to have found a 'sister wife' who is so welcoming and, according to you, willing to make many concessions to make you happy.

I, too, think it's presumptuous and unreasonable for you to even ask him to replace his wife with you for YOUR financial security. HE should be providing that anyway and can do it as things are now. It's called 'money'. He can give you a settlement of sorts (even if you all have to save it up over time) that would allow you to return home in the event of his death. Yeah, I read--you want to stay in Germany so you can spend your days as his grieving widow. Be realistic. He won't be there. His family is likely to want you gone. You will miss your children and want to come home where you can be comfortable again. Plus, you will probaby die before he does anyway, give the age difference and your bad health so I doubly think asking him to de-throne his wife is extremely unrealistic and selfish.

How to learn to accept this? You have to realize you have it pretty damn good over there frankly. You are with a family that's willing to accommodate you even while you are trying to make fundamental changes in the paradigm to suit YOUR needs and yours alone. You have to realize that any relationship with a married man gives YOU the short end of the stick and you have to decides whether the happiness is worth the heartache. YOU have to accept your place as #2. And maybe do some reading and some praying and some talking with friends. But nobody can 'teach' you how to accept it...you have to come to that conclusion on your own--or not.

Again...it sounds like you have a pretty sweet deal there and really, not much to come back to here. This is the bed you made now you have to make the best of it. and speaking just for me...if he DID divorce his wife and leave his children for you, you wouldn't feel very good about that either. There's that little thing called 'conscience' and it can eat you up. Trust me-I was the catalyst that ended my dh's previous marriage (without meaning to) and I feel such guilt and I wish I could find some way to let that woman know how sorry I am and to 'make it better' but there really isn't even though I adore my dh and am so happy to be with him, I wish it had ended differently for them.

Last edited by pollyanna; 05-15-2013 at 11:49 AM.
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  #62  
Old 05-15-2013, 11:56 AM
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and i really think you need to give his wife credit for even allowing your man to bring his mistress into her home. I know my dh's former would have NEVER stood for that and we didn't even try.

Polyamory has to be agreed upon by all partners BEFORE the relationships start. It wasn't in our case and it ended up with a scorned wife who felt forced (and she was) into an untenable situation who then plotted to murder her husband because of it.

I know you are giving her credit but really, really think about how much SHE has conceded and done to make you happy. Not mincing words, frankly, some of what you post makes you sound like an ungrateful wretch.

If you truly love your 'husband', then you will support and nurture his marriage and help make it stronger so that it will support you as well.

Last edited by pollyanna; 05-15-2013 at 12:00 PM.
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  #63  
Old 05-15-2013, 01:54 PM
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Vixtoria Vixtoria is offline
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Okay I'm sorry, but am I the ONLY one thinking that it's NOT his job to make sure she's financially secure? Right now, I know that if something happens to my husband that the kids and I are covered, but to be honest, it bothers me! I do NOT like that I can't take care of myself if something happens.

It's something we are working on now. As I was the bread winner while he went to school, we are working on me going back to school so I can make sure that I can make a living on my own. I don't like the idea of depending on life insurance or a will if something happens. I want to know that *I* can handle my children and myself on my own.

I get it, you had a job, you had a career and now you don't, and keep saying you can't. I have to wonder how much of that is the victim mentality. I've been told to go get disability many times, by doctors, shrinks and family. For the record, I know someone that works with disability, it's not EVEN easy it takes years and tons of paperwork and that's IF you have years of paperwork from doctors. That's best case!

One of the things I had to do, and am still working on, as far as getting out of the victim headspace from past abuse and trauma is deciding that I CAN do things. I get fuzzy headed, I disassociate to the point of staring at nothing for hours to days! I am making sure that I can function. It's harder, but I do it. I see a therapist, I take my medicine, I find my own programs to help with keeping my brain clear, working on memory and multitasking. I have an ipod and programs on it and my computer that I use to make sure I can do thing! It's not easy, no one said it was, but saying it's too hard and constantly blaming the mental or physical problems doesn't get you anywhere.

I can tell you they interview you for disability in the states, and according to the one interview I did, if you can add simple sums and tell them who the president is, you can do something, part time, menial, but you can work and so are not disabled. Not that they tell you where to get that job, but as far as they are concerned, you can.


There was a link that NYC gave on expats, use it! Find out how others got jobs there? I'm sure the system is hard, but someone did it! Someone can help you figure it out!

Less self pitying, and yes talking about how you KNOW you are selfish but want to know how to accept things is self pitying, and more actual work forward. You did a talk, great! But it was still about how everything can be changed to accomodate you! Start making a life for yourself that your lover can be part of instead of everything revolving around him and his family!
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  #64  
Old 05-15-2013, 02:29 PM
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pollyanna pollyanna is offline
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well, i think that if he took her to another country and promised to take care of her, then he is obligated to do so but not at the expense of his first family. I assume he knew of her disabilities and issues and asked her to move to him anyway.

In our triad, my dh still works, i am retired altho I do work with dh-I earn no pay so I officially don't have a job- and our third is also retired.

It is my husband's responsibility to make sure that I am provided for in the event of his death-making sure I have a home, money to live on, etc. Now...if the third lives with us and something then happens to ME (assuming dh is already gone), what happens to the third? How awful to lose your partner AND your home at the same time. I can't imagine not trying to make sure it doesn't happen to anyone you care about.

I may be old-fashioned but I ENJOY having a partner who isn't so narcissistic that they can only be concerned about themselves. I have been 'independent' and for my money, it's easier to struggle together than alone. I LIKE having someone who thinks i'm important enough to plan for. And, again, this may sound so like your great-granny but it's very emasculating for some men to think that they are not needed. Sometimes big girl panties keep things out as well as keep things in.

JMTCW...this post and $2 will getcha a cuppa coffee down the street.
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  #65  
Old 05-15-2013, 02:50 PM
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Why can't he take out a life insurance policy and make her beneficiary? It sounds like he could afford the premiums.

I'm just wondering if I'm the only one who doesn't really trust him? It's just a feeling I have.
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  #66  
Old 05-15-2013, 03:14 PM
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But was that the agreement? The plan? "Come here and let me take care of you for life?" It seemed to me to be more of a "I love you and want to help, come live with us and we will help you get you on your feet and I want to continue a relationship with you."


I have heard, so many horror stories of mono to poly where the lament was, "I can't leave because one of us is financially dependent on the other." Whether it's the poly or the mono, it leaves people feeling like they HAVE to put up with things they don't want to because of no options. As if the other person has the control and therefore you can't expect them to go slow, negotiate, or work with you. Vice versa has happened too. Let me bend over backwards because i feel badly that you can't leave because you are financially dependent on me.

I'm not a solo polyist, I'm not a relationship anarchist, but one thing I think I have in common with them is that I know it's important to be able to have a way to support yourself. Yes, it's easier to struggle together, DH and I have supported each other through a ton of crises of many kinds, but there have also been times that we have been at our wits end and I personally have felt like I had no options because I was not only financially dependent but I didn't even have an emergency plan for myself let alone me and the kids! I'd rather know I can leave, I can survive on my own and not need to, than be in a situation that makes me feel victim again. It's a horrible feeling and when you HAVE been a victim of abuse, the last thing you should want is to feel that way ever again.

Also, on the big girl panties thing, I just roll my eyes. If a man is going to feel like I'm not fuckable because I want to be able to support myself in an emergency, then that makes HIM unfuckable.
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  #67  
Old 05-15-2013, 03:26 PM
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Another option: find someone else there to marry you on paper only so you can get benefits. Have your bf pay him to do so, if necessary, like what people do here for foreigners who want green cards. Do whatever you can to have security and GET THAT PIECE OF PAPER HE WROTE UP MADE LEGAL!

In my opinion, you have thrown up your hands and given up, maybe because you feel so defeated by your illnesses, and maybe because you had been victimized for so long, but it seems your approach now has been to expect or demand that others take care of you because you feel helpless. I can understand that. I've been there.

You are not helpless. You need to stop giving up on yourself. You are the only one who can take care of you. Like, so what if it takes a few hours to go to a school to learn German? If you are determined, you will do what it takes. I have a friend whose mother had been prescribed thalidomide (back in the early 1950s) during her pregnancy with his sister, and his sister was born with misshapen small "flippers" instead of arms and legs. She has also had numerous other medical problems, yet has never given up and indeed has been such an inspiration to others that she once appeared on television and a man watched her speak and flew from Europe to California just to meet her and get to know her - they wound up marrying! He was attracted to her because she refused to see herself as a victim!

I have not shared here in this forum what I had to do to survive when I had no income and no jobs forthcoming, but believe me, I was on the brink of becoming homeless. I lived here in my apartment without electricity for several weeks around Christmas the year before last because I owed the utilities company several hundred dollars. It was horrible to come home and have only a battery-powered lantern and sit there with very little to eat while everyone was celebrating the holidays. And my landlord wanted me out. It was terrifying to be in that situation! I was walking around with only change in my pockets for weeks, asking the deli's and local businesses to give me credit so I could eat, and I even had a few meals at soup kitchens around here. That was embarrassing - I used to volunteer at soup kitchens and now I was relying on them for meals. I had to put my pride and shame and beliefs about what I could and could not do aside and so I gathered up whatever strength I could muster, despite being depressed and having suicidal thoughts, to get the money I needed to survive. What I did is not something I would ever want to do again, and indeed it felt like I had hit rock bottom, but I did it (no, I did not sell my body!). And because I did not give up on myself, I got through what was one of the worst chapters of my life and did not have to wind up in a shelter for the homeless. I have a job now that I love, but it is hard on my body. I have two herniated disks in my lower back and have to stand all day at work. When I leave work, I limp to the bus stop to go home, but I am grateful every day for this job and will do whatever I have to so I can pay my rent and bills.

Do what it takes to be self-sufficient, whether it is learning the language, going to the American embassy for help, connecting with American ex-pats, or returning to the states. This man is not the be-all and end-all of your life. No one should be. You only have you, so work on being the best you can be, with or without him.
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Last edited by nycindie; 05-15-2013 at 03:40 PM.
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  #68  
Old 05-15-2013, 04:36 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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OK-
Stop the press.

Your conversation was productive with his wife. Yes?
Some things and ideas were resolved-though not all.

So pause for a moment and relish the knowledge that in being open and honest with each other-you and she were able to find that some of what you want, she doesn't want and vice versa which made your desires in THOSE areas very compatible.

NOW
Understand, you came here for help. In almost every situation when a patient comes to a psychologist for help regarding relationship issues (which is what you are having) they get frustrated by what they feel is judgment. Because what they hear-hurts.
Likewise-while I am in NO WAY saying that you are talking to a group of psychologists-you are having the same experience-and there IS A REASON FOR IT-and that reason isn't that you are being judged.
The reason for it is-that when we are stuck in a mess, and we ask for help, it's because we don't see the solutions. OFTEN TIMES we don't see them, because we don't want to see them. We don't want to see them, because they are painful and require us to change.

BUT-this comes right back down to the bottom line (that I wrote in some previous post to you already).
We can ONLY CHANGE OURSELVES.

In truth-while academically we can all argue over whether or not he owes you or her, this or that; it's TOTALLY arbitrary, because he is not here asking for advice. You are asking, therefore all of the solutions that are pertinent AND THE ONLY solutions that are pertinent are the ones YOU ALONE CAN MAKE.
Not because the ones you can make are "the best" or "the easiest" or "the most realistic" even. Simply because YOU ALONE CAN ONLY CHANGE YOU ALONE.

You can ask someone else to change-but you can't make them.

SO-why waste our time (or yours) trying to figure out how to do the impossible?


The SECOND issue that leaves you frustrated and feeling judged is that we ONLY HAVE YOUR TYPED WORDS to go from. You have MUCH MORE knowledge and understanding of the situation in your mind-because you are living it. However-it is impossible, no matter how much you write, for us to see the full picture. THerefore we are AT BEST playing a guessing game. Inevitably many of those guesses will fall short of reality-but that isn't for lack of effort, it's for lack of involvement which can't be changed.

So, you have to put on a bit of thick skin when asking advice from people who ARE NOT THERE.

Finally-you did ask for help from a group of people online, whom you have never met. The majority of whom are trying to live in poly dynamics for one reason or another.
Please don't make the assumption that it is 'easier' or 'more natural' for any one person who is replying to you. You don't know any of us any better than we know each other or you. MANY people on this board are mono. Many people on this board don't want poly. Quite a few VERY VOCAL ANGRY AND HEATED conversations have happened when wives who grudgingly accepted the demands of their cheating husbands to "do poly" because their husbands were in love with their mistress-had to face mistresses who for reasons similar to yours wanted the husband to divorce the wife.
I have been on this board just shy of 4 years now. Your story (as written) isn't particularly unique. One unique thing is that it's been more common to hear from the pissed off wife-but you've already noted in this case she isn't fluent in English.

Anyway-we've seen the fireball explosions of relationships(repeatedly) when people come to the board seeking advice-only to refuse that advice. From those repeated scenarios, there have come to be noted a number of the same variables.
One of those variables is one partner wanting to alter who is "primary" or who holds the legal document.

I DO understand your desire for security. I am a stay at home mom with 3 kids. As this didn't "just happen", I had a job, I was financially secure in my own right before I married Maca. However-as a couple, we discussed priorities and agreed that someone needed to be at home with the kids. We agreed on me, because I already had 6 years of single parenting experience and he was only 1 year clean from cocaine etc. His patience was iffy and his parenting skills were weak.
Therefore-I DO EXPECT HIM TO SUPPORT ME financially. I do expect that he will provide for me AND my children-EVEN IF WE WERE TO DIVORCE.

However-GG enters and our dynamic becomes poly. He also works. He is expected (as an equal partner) to put his money in the family accounts as well-and everyone's "play money" or "personal money" comes out AFTER the family obligations are paid.
Legally-he is a single, unmarried man. But-functionally he is equally obligated to this family. While there is NOTHING on paper obligating him, we have opted to chose to live our lives this way.
As for "what if someone dies" we have bought life insurance policies that pay out to each other, GG has written a will leaving all of his belongings to me, I have a will leaving mine split between he and Maca and Maca leaves all of his to me.

These things can be arranged. IF for some reason one of them refused this level of responsibility as a family-I wouldn't be in this poly dynamic. Period. I would not be in relationship with someone who "held out" from being "both feet in".

ON THE OTHER HAND-if one of them gets a girlfriend-the option for her to be added into that equation equally depends upon how she opts to be involved with the family. I guarantee that if she so much as breathed the idea that she wanted Maca to divorce me, she'd be out on her ass in a second flat. He may be the primary bread-winner, but this is not "his house" it is OUR house and that means 1/2 is MINE. NO ONE, lover or not will EVER live in my home if they can't respect each of us individually AND our existing commitments jointly. I don't really care what excuse they have.

IF however said woman came to me and said, "I'm concerned, I have health issues blah blah blah-I can't think of a creative solution here that takes into account my needs without taking away from yours and the kids, I'd really appreciate some help brainstorming options." I would move mountains to find the solution that guaranteed we were all cared for, supported etc.

I share this so you can consider methodology. What is triggering so much "selfish bitch" attitude towards you-is your methodology. The way you talk is from the viewpoint of someone who only cares about yourself. That could be because that is how you think OR it could be because you haven't taken the time to consider how you sound. Both are very common.

But-you will never get a good response from people who spend countless hours considering how they can be egalitarian towards metamours (a word you might benefit in learning as well) if you talk like your metamour doesn't matter to you.

IF she matters to you, then you can't address the issues from the perpective of what you want, they have to all be addressed from the perspective of what is best for EVERYONE in the dynamic and that may mean you have to make some serious changes in your expectations.


(I still think there's some hokey shit going on in a dynamic where you live together and yet things are so segregated and he "can't" or "won't" put aside a security measure on behalf of each of you)
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  #69  
Old 05-15-2013, 05:21 PM
InAndOut InAndOut is offline
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The OP's beau could take out another policy, but since I don't much about the legal system in Germany. I can only speak on how I've seen things done. The OP would likely have to prove insurable interest in order to be listed as the beneficiary. What effect would his death have on the OP? Let's say I have a house that was near water in a place that has issues with flooding. If my house flooded, I'd lose it, or there would be damage. That's a loss and my insurable interest. I used the flood thing because I'm originally from Louisiana, and anytime hurricane season was going on, flooding was a reality. Would the OP suffer or lose anything financially in the event of his untimely demise? Spouses, children, parents, grandparents, etc. are assumed to all be insurable interests. Seeing as how she is technically dependent upon him, it might get approved.

Something is off if this guy ain't willing to do the legal legwork required to make sure you don't get thrown out on your keister if he croaks. If he loves you half as much as he claims, he wouldn't be playing around with this.

OP, here is why people are treating you like a selfish old bitty. You're treating that man's wife like she doesn't have feelings or any rights. Have you stopped long enough to think that you could be hurting her? If she wanted a divorce, she'd probably have asked for one. If you could convince him to divorce her, I don't have a doubt under this blue sky that you'd do it. She's the wife and the mother of that man's kids. You need to respect their marriage and their commitment. He thought highly enough of her to put a ring on it and have a couple of kids with her. You don't have to understand it. That's not your place or your business. What goes on in a marriage is between that man and that woman. You know how adults tell children to stay out of grown folks business? Get out of married people's business. Stop trying to be a homewrecker. I mean this in the nicest way possible.

You're talking about her like an object blocking your path to white picket fence 1950s marital bliss. From what I've read, she's been more than accommodating. No longer being intimate with her husband, letting you live in their home--rent free and fancy free--, cooking, cleaning, and all this jazz. This was the thanks you were trying to give her? Wanting to steal her husband away from her was an appropriate thank you?

Say he divorces her. She'd get half of everything, and I'm sure he'd have to pay child support. Unless he's cold-hearted and unloving I'm sure he's going to set something aside for those kids or appoint someone who can handle it until they're of age. Probably their momma or another trusted person. There's no guarantee you'd get a dime or be secure then either.

Treat your metamour like a person, respect their marriage, respect their family, and work with them. Your expectations are going to have to come down to a realistic level that ain't all about you, what you want, what you need, and how you you wanna live. Sugar, it ain't about just you. There are kids and two other adults who have wants, needs, expectations, and the right to not be miserable. You came into their lives knowing the situation. Don't expect it to change to tickle your fancy and suit your whims and demands.

Last edited by InAndOut; 05-15-2013 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 05-15-2013, 05:57 PM
WhatHappened WhatHappened is offline
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Speaking from the perspective of one who has spent the last 24 years in education, holds a masters degree in the subject, knows a bit about learning disabilities and kids with special needs, has taught thousands of students, and studies several languages--I'm very uncomfortable with the attitude that anyone can learn anything if they just try harder. I've seen students learn so fast my head spins, and I've seen others who are clearly intelligent yet they struggle.

I'm all people continuing to try, and for not seeing themselves as a victims. But I also feel that some of what's been said here in regards to OP's attempts to learn German are a little harsh and judgmental.

Last edited by WhatHappened; 05-15-2013 at 06:19 PM.
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