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Old 07-30-2010, 09:29 PM
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RatatouilleStrychnine RatatouilleStrychnine is offline
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I know you didn't write this, YGirl, but you did quote it, and I wanted to add some comments:

I think people are a little too optimistic about the privacy of sperm donation, egg donation, closed adoptions, and the like. I know several people who came of age right around the time that adoption records started to become available to the kids who had been adopted, and one girl I know made her real mom's life an absolute fucking mess because the girl was manic-depressive and unwell mentally, refused to receive treatment or meds because she wanted to keep hearing the voice of God inside her head which told her to do stuff (I think she was a tad schizophrenic too but mostly she had bipolar symptoms)....and she latched onto and stalked her real mom. Her real mom had been one of those sad teens of the early 1960's forced to give up her baby because she was an unwed mom; years later she got married and had two kids with her new husband. Then her adopted daughter shows up with a huge bucket of unfulfilled emotional need, and it totally wrecked all of the people involved.

I have also heard of people finding out who their sperm donor daddy was. So I don't think any of those activities like donating sperm or eggs should be seen as being childfree at ALL because you can DEFINITELY end up with a kid on your doorstep at some point. Same with "closed' adoptions. Laws change, records end up being shared (whether legally or through bribery).....so there is no such thing as total anonymity with that stuff. Which is scary!
I have some personal background that probably makes me more sensitive to this, I'm afraid, and so I take offense to the idea that a biological parent is the "real" parent. The "real" parent is the one who raised you. The girl in the story did not track her "real mom", because the woman who had her adopted was not her mom in any way. She was just a relative. And there is no way to prevent crazy relatives from making your life difficult, I'm afraid, even if you are CF.

The people who are tracked down by the products of their sperm donations may have ended up "with a kid on their doorstep", but it was not their kid. You can have unexpected genetic relations turn up on your doorstep whether you donate sperm or not.

In both cases (adopted away a daughter, donated sperm) the difficulties that may have arisen are nothing to do with having children, because the children were not theirs and the people had no responsibility to them. Unlike their actual parents, of course.

(None of this has much to do with the discussion about CF, but I feel very strongly about this.)

Last edited by RatatouilleStrychnine; 07-30-2010 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 07-30-2010, 09:41 PM
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redpepper redpepper is offline
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That's okay, most of this thread has little to do with poly even...
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Old 07-31-2010, 08:28 AM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Originally Posted by RatatouilleStrychnine View Post
The people who are tracked down by the products of their sperm donations may have ended up "with a kid on their doorstep", but it was not their kid. You can have unexpected genetic relations turn up on your doorstep whether you donate sperm or not.
I guess if this happened and you were CF, and they kept stalking you, you could go the same way as anyone deals with a stalker: Call the police and get a restraining order. Mind you, where I live, you can actually only get a restraining order against a former lover, which I think is ridiculous. I've got sense enough not to take lovers who turn out to be stalkers... it's the crazies whom you turn down and become obsessed that you really have to worry about!

And it's a good point that CF or not, you can end up with relatives making your life hell, and feeling obliged to deal with it because they're supposedly "family." But in my life, my family is the people I've chosen as family. I've got blood-relatives with whom I never ever speak (all of them, in fact, aside from my parents). Sharing DNA doesn't make you any closer to someone, it's the family-instituted indoctrination that does that...

One way to deal with the mentally-ill adoptee would be to insist they get medical attention. And if they refuse, but they insist that you're their "real" parent, then take that to court and get power of attorney, at which point you can have them put in treatment.
As I am sure any cat owner will be able to tell you,
someone else putting you in a box is entirely different
from getting into a box yourself.

Last edited by SchrodingersCat; 07-31-2010 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 08-02-2010, 02:09 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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I thought about this over the weekend, and I decided that it IS possible to be CF and change your mind like redpepper did, and like Schroedinger described (although as I've said, I'm sick of hearing about it being applied to me). However, with full or partial hysterectomy, or tubectomy, it is virtually impossible to have an "accident" that will cause one to change one's mind (I have heard of cases where "laser" tubal ligations "failed" and the person got pregnant, and then there's that relatively new "Essure" procedure which seems to come with a tiny risk of "accidental" pregnancy once the procedure is complete). I personally hold that if you change your mind about something like this, then some part of you was always "unsure" about it, or deep down you wanted it but were too immature or preoccupied with other things to understand yourself on that level. As far as it goes with "changing your mind", all I have to say about that is, once you have a kid or adopt one, or give one up for adoption, you can't change your mind after THAT, so I'd rather stick with what I know already works.

The thing I take issue with is when people think that they are CF just because they haven't had a kid YET, when they fully intend to have one "some day", or when they have one after planning on it their whole life and then say "I was CF before I had my kid... "

When it comes to biological vs adopted, I agree that it's your "PARENT(S)" who RAISE you, as far as the child is concerned. But, in regards to "being CF", which is mainly the concern of the "parent" as far as being the VESSEL or VEHICLE of reproduction goes, I still do not view someone who caused a child to be generated to be CF, according to the "world view" outlined by Ceoli and subsequently quoted by others.

Last edited by NeonKaos; 08-02-2010 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 08-08-2010, 09:16 PM
indicca indicca is offline
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Default you go, ygirl!

You go, ygirl!
My husband and I are CF by choice and it is maddening when people harp on us about not procreating! Why should we?! there are plenty of people in the world already, why add to the mess!? My husband had a vasectomy a few ago and the dr who performed the surgery told us that he felt "it was morally wrong. How did we know we didn't want kids if we didn't have any already" it took over an hour to convince the dr it was our choice, not his. that he needed to respect our decision to be cf just as we respect his decision to have kids. It was maddening, I tell you!
Being CF is wonderful. We would love to meet other people who share our views on being CF too.
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Old 08-09-2010, 07:36 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
Or it could be considered a tax to pay for future generations that will be wiping the drool off your chin when you are too old to take care of yourself and don't have children of your own to do it.
Actually, I don't believe it makes a significant difference. People without children still have younger friends, people they were mentors for, people they took under their wings, partners, etc, all of which are likely to be there for them when they need it, and people with children might have children who are themselves busy, live too far, don't get along with them or for many other reasons won't care for them.
The cynic in me is also thinking, in this economy, shouldn't we thank the people who are giving jobs to these future generations? After all, the people I know who live in homes for the elderly or have someone come and take care of them in their own home are paying for it themselves out of their retirement money, which they earned. (Oh, and all of these people DO have kids, incidentally).

Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
Either way..if a healthy portion of the population doesn't procreate the species dies. That's terribly valid and about all I have to say on this topic as the thread is related to something that does not apply to me.
I agree with you. If nobody this generation (or any generation) had kids, we'd be screwed. However, I don't think we're in any danger of that happening. I feel that as far as my generation is concerned, they have already had enough children that the human species is not as risk, and therefore I don't personally need to have a single one. As a species, for our survival, we've done our duty.

Now arises the opposite problem. Indeed, if too big a portion of the population reproduces, or the portion that does does so too much, it's possible for a species to get extinct due to the lack of resources or habitat. In the case of humans, it's also possible for it to have a negative effect on other species and on the planet itself. I believe if the population was much, much, much lower, then having kids could become some kind of duty, and you'd be looked down on if you don't have any, because the species might die. It might even become illegal to have no kids unless you could prove your sterility.

On the other hand, when the population is too high, then I feel it's the opposite. No matter how much you want kids, by having too many you might contribute to the extinction of your species or the destruction of your planet. In such a case, only a limited amount of people might be allowed to have kids, or the maximum allowed might be one, to make sure the population reduces.

And of course, there is the middle ground, where neither is going to be a problem, and people should just be able to decide, as long as they're not hurting others in the process (I feel strong negative emotions towards people who insist on having biological children, knowing full well they will suffer a lot and die young due to hereditary conditions. I feel it's just wrong to actively cause someone to suffer that much).

My personal belief is that the population is too high right now, although we're not all doomed either. I wish to see it at least stabilise rather than keep growing, and would be happier if it started reducing, to stabilise later on.
I'm sure everyone can see that it can't keep growing forever. The only real question is how much is too much, and how much is enough? Well as I said, I personally feel that we're in absolutely no danger of extinction from there being too little of us right now (and other people my generation have already provided enough humans for us not to go extinct so I don't need to ever have any kids myself), and that there has been problems already caused by there being too many of us.

I don't feel it's at a stage where I would tell anyone that they shouldn't have kids, but it's at a stage where I wouldn't feel comfortable at all having biological kids myself. For that reason, I don't want any biological kids, ever. At this time, I don't want kids at all, but I am not against the idea of adopting some at some point, which I believe means I can't call myself "a true childfree".

I think it's just my "no waste" mindset. I always think of things as "if there are some already, why make a new one and let the existing ones go to waste?".
In a way, I think the same about children. "As long as there are children to adopt, why would I even consider "making" new ones and letting the others stay orphans? That's just mean".
That's just the way I've always felt, even as a kid. I know adopting is a hard process, but for me, having a biological kid is a "I wasn't able to adopt" kind of thing, rather than the other way around. If I am making any sense here.

I'm not trying to judge people here, (clarifying because, re-reading my post, it might sound like I am, and I don't want to give that impression). I'm just explaining how it feels for me, and indeed has always felt. I don't hold anyone else to what works for me, be it my polyamorous lifestyle or not wanting biological children or any other personal life choice.
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Old 08-09-2010, 08:23 PM
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redsirenn redsirenn is offline
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Default Another CF person here...

I am 29 - and I hear the "you'll change your mind" comment repeatedly. Especially since I am still young and "capable". I absolutely think it is possible that I could change my mind one day, but am waiting for that bell to ring, and it simply hasn't yet. I question myself very deeply, and still find no desire for a child in my life.

Sometimes this is a hard thing for me to face for myself... The thought that when I am older I won't have that familial support network (Although I have lots of BFFs that could fill that role), and that my parents may never be grandparents... something they REALLY want. I think my mother has come to accept it though, since a discussion I had with her last year when I asked her to quit asking me about it.

Recently, I got a copper IUD that will ensure (99.8% anyhow) that I will remain child free until I am past forty. It is easily reversible for that small chance that I do change my mind.... this adds an incredible peace of mind in my decision, and I feel is the essence of feminism - the ability to choose.

I passionately support and respect those who do CHOOSE to have or not have children, and don't simply have them because they are supposed to, just like I passionately support those who CHOOSE their own relationship styles.
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Old 12-19-2010, 05:34 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is online now
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I just found out that the couple my gf has become romantically involved with is child-free (they are 35 and 27). They've got good jobs and lots of money, and now are taking on my gf as a sub or slave or gf or whatever the heck. Almost like a child substitute! They pay for everything for her, nice dinners out, 3D IMAX movies, trips, you name it...

There! I'm on topic: CF and poly!
Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

Mags (poly, F, 61) loving miss pixi (poly, F, 39) since January 2009, living together since 2013
"Master," (mono, 36), miss pixi's Dom for 3 years
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Old 12-19-2010, 06:06 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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i think it's great that they want to treat her to lots of fun stuff and they can afford to do so, but i think it's kind of creepy to liken it to a "child substitute".

then again, i don't like my cats to watch me masturbate, so maybe i'm just a prude.
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Old 12-19-2010, 06:30 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
I just found out that the couple my gf has become romantically involved with is child-free (they are 35 and 27). They've got good jobs and lots of money, and now are taking on my gf as a sub or slave or gf or whatever the heck. Almost like a child substitute! They pay for everything for her, nice dinners out, 3D IMAX movies, trips, you name it...

There! I'm on topic: CF and poly!
Not to be a picky person, but when I date someone I love to provide. I make decent money and can provide, so I do. I would never liken any of it to a child relationship.

Pampering is part of the package when dating me.
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