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  #171  
Old 09-16-2011, 10:57 AM
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rory rory is offline
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All right, I'll try to write some thoughts I had before the mentioning of boobs flew them right out of my head.

I really like the essay on Superhuman Soul! I agree with everything Veaux has to say in it, and it's stuff I've been thinking a lot lately. After starting to live/think polyamorously, I've realised this is how I've always felt about relationships. I've never been comfortable with the idea that relationships and people are replaceable. There's just been a conflict in my head between my natural way of thinking and loving and the assumption I had that I can only be with one partner (because no way I would be so lucky to find somebody I love and who loves me and who I'm compatible with AND who'll be open to poly - I've never been happier I was wrong!). I have and have had needs Alec cannot meet, and I've often been anxious about the "fact" that if I stay with him I'll never get them met in a romantic relationship. But while I had these thoughts, I always concluded I love him and want to stay with him. Finally, with opening my mind to polyamory, I realise I can have it all and there is no more anxiety. I no longer need to focus on the needs he can't meet and I can truly appreciate all the ways in which he is good to me. I can now appreciate him as he is, and not be forced into the people-as-commodities-thinking, i.e. thinking about a checklist of things I want/need and counting how many are present in our relationship and wondering if I should try to change him for somebody with whom I can tick more boxes (assuming I would find such a person). That's felt so wrong, because the beauty of a person is their Superhuman Soul, who they are, and that's more than the relationship needs they fill for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnabelMore View Post
Maybe I should just ask if they like-like her... but if I did would my jealousy be obvious and weird them out?
I was thinking about this, and I'll write even though the situation was now resolved. I think it's good that you didn't let your internal freakout be an external one. However, I think it might have actually been ok to ask them what they feel for her. And I don't think you need to hide that you're jealous. You're entitled to feel that way, as long as you don't let it have too much of an impact how you act (which you haven't). Maybe it's even something you should let them, or at least Gia, know, while of course making sure she also knows that your feelings don't mean you want her to hang out with her less or in any other way to change her behaviour. I'm thinking that I would definitely want to know if something like this was making my partner feel insecure or jealous or bad. That information wouldn't, in itself, change how I act, but it's important to me they know they can talk to me and that I care about how they feel. And I think it's also important to talk about the feelings while you are still able to control how you react to them and be reasonable. From everything you've told about Gia, I see no reason to think she wouldn't be understanding and supportive. And, I don't think it would be unreasonable for you to ask (if you felt like it) if she would feel ok not have sex with somebody else (besides Eric, of course) until you two have started again. It doesn't sound like she wants to, either way. But I think it is relevant information to her that you wouldn't feel comfortable with it at this situation.
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  #172  
Old 09-16-2011, 03:09 PM
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MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
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Hi Annabel!
I'm trying to get caught up on your beautiful thread. I'm on page 13 just now, with 4 more pages to go to bring me up to date. But this
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnabelMore View Post
Sure, I could tell him I love him as a friend or I love the role he plays in my life (Gia's suggestion for wording when I first brought it up to her in the winter). But in truth I feel much more than that, so it would feel like a lie. I love to look at him when he's not looking. I smile without meaning to when I see him. He makes me feel warm and relaxed and nervous and protective and turned on, all at the same time.
has set me to searching out on Internet THIS. [Perhaps my favourite song about NOT speaking up about love. I think that you'll probably identify with the emotions... unless you've made progress since then. (What will the next 4 pages reveal???)] You might decide to bring this song to Eric's attention. [Hint hint hint...]

I also looked up the lyrics and have done a rough translation from the Portuguese for you. Poetry never translates perfectly, and I've been careful to keep the lines in the same order, so that you can read the lyrics while listening to the video and know what she's singing while she's singing it, so that leads to a strange sentence order in English:

Every Time by C. Oyens / Zélia Duncan

My heart
- Every time that it sees you -
Wants to shout; to risk
Breaking out in song:
Betraying me to everybody.
It believes that it’s
Out of reach;
And goes and announces me
When you lightly pass by,
Giving me away like that
Completely freely
In this inevitable state
Of passion.
But then I close my eyes
And it [my heart] becomes silent.
My darkness is my shield;
And silent
Is my heart...

[repeat from "And goes..." until end]

***

I can't resist adding this link to a live version (which I've just discovered).

(No, I don't speak Portuguese, but it's close enough to Spanish for me to understand these lyrics. And I love this song so much that I've learned the lyrics... and sing it. [I can't sing along right now, because I'm in a cybercafé, but I've replayed it at least 4 times while typing all this out.])

I hope that it means something to you. (And if Eric likes it, you might decide to let him read the translation. [HINT HINT HINT!!!])
__________________
If I can't dance, I want no part in your Revolution.
- Emma Goldman Anarchist and Polyamorous par excellence
The person who says something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.
- old Chinese proverb
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~ Anais Nin
I'd rather have a broken heart / Than have a heart of stone.
- from "Boundless Love (A Polyamory Song)" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson

Last edited by MrFarFromRight; 09-16-2011 at 03:14 PM.
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  #173  
Old 09-16-2011, 10:39 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rory View Post
I can now appreciate him as he is, and not be forced into the people-as-commodities-thinking, i.e. thinking about a checklist of things I want/need and counting how many are present in our relationship and wondering if I should try to change him for somebody with whom I can tick more boxes (assuming I would find such a person).
Yes! That's just how I feel about this second go at a relationship with Davis.

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Originally Posted by rory View Post
Maybe it's even something you should let them, or at least Gia, know, while of course making sure she also knows that your feelings don't mean you want her to hang out with her less or in any other way to change her behaviour. I'm thinking that I would definitely want to know if something like this was making my partner feel insecure or jealous or bad. ... And, I don't think it would be unreasonable for you to ask (if you felt like it) if she would feel ok not have sex with somebody else (besides Eric, of course) until you two have started again. It doesn't sound like she wants to, either way. But I think it is relevant information to her that you wouldn't feel comfortable with it at this situation.
Good points, I will definitely consider talking to her about these things if a good time comes around for it.
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The major players. Me, 30ish bi female. Gia, girlfriend of 4+ years. Clay, boyfriend/dom. Davis, ex/friend/"it's complicated." Eddie, roommate & fwb.
The supporting cast. Eric, Gia's husband. Bee, Gia and Eric's toddler. Dexter, Gia's lover. Helen, Eric's lover. Izzy and Nikki, Clay's partners. Liam, Eddie's husband.

Last edited by AnnabelMore; 09-16-2011 at 10:49 PM.
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  #174  
Old 09-16-2011, 10:43 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight View Post
Hi Annabel!
I'm trying to get caught up on your beautiful thread. I'm on page 13 just now, with 4 more pages to go to bring me up to date.
Aww, hi! It's good to see you back, Mr. FFR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight View Post
I can't resist adding this link to a live version (which I've just discovered).

I hope that it means something to you. (And if Eric likes it, you might decide to let him read the translation. [HINT HINT HINT!!!])
Lovely! It does mean something to me, I can certainly relate. I think I've come around to feeling like I'm not in a rush to come clean to Eric, though that pendulum may swing back the other way with some time. You'll probably see more clarification on that as you read on.
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The major players. Me, 30ish bi female. Gia, girlfriend of 4+ years. Clay, boyfriend/dom. Davis, ex/friend/"it's complicated." Eddie, roommate & fwb.
The supporting cast. Eric, Gia's husband. Bee, Gia and Eric's toddler. Dexter, Gia's lover. Helen, Eric's lover. Izzy and Nikki, Clay's partners. Liam, Eddie's husband.

Last edited by AnnabelMore; 09-16-2011 at 10:50 PM.
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  #175  
Old 09-16-2011, 11:05 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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A few days ago, I was thinking about Eric's attraction to Liza and grumbling in my mind, "Why does he want her so bad?" Then, suddenly, I remembered what was going on when I originally hooked up with Harry... I was missing Gia so I decided to open myself up to the possibilities around me and just see who might come along.

Could it be that Liza has come along in Eric's life now because he's feeling distant from Gia and wants someone new to feel special with? Could it even be that he's missing *me*??

I think it's more likely that he just thinks she's hot and sweet and it's not a lot more complicated than that. But thinking about things from that perspective... that maybe Eric is a human just like me with hurts and empty places and needs... made me realize that I don't usually think of him in quite that way, and that's a little messed up.

All this time, I've been viewing things through this lens of the roles that I'd cast for us in my mind. This drama where I love him and he doesn't love me. So I'm the person who desires what she can't have, and he's the object of desire. There's not a lot of room for complexity in that. And it leaves him as an out-of-reach thing, not a full person.

Mr. FFR was trying to point this out to me way back, in his post dated 3/17/11 when he wrote "Hey! I hope that you let Eric down gently when you turned down his invitation after the party! Maybe he's wandering about in a funk: "Why did she reject me?!""

At the time I didn't take it too seriously, but it did sort of niggle at me... like, that was a really good point, why didn't it occur to me that Eric might have taken it as a rejection?

When everything is seen through this lens I find myself constantly assuming that he's not particularly interested in me and feeling this bittersweetness about him. And sure, that makes for a great dramatic narrative, but it's not a good way to relate to a friend.

Time to straighten up!!
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The major players. Me, 30ish bi female. Gia, girlfriend of 4+ years. Clay, boyfriend/dom. Davis, ex/friend/"it's complicated." Eddie, roommate & fwb.
The supporting cast. Eric, Gia's husband. Bee, Gia and Eric's toddler. Dexter, Gia's lover. Helen, Eric's lover. Izzy and Nikki, Clay's partners. Liam, Eddie's husband.
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  #176  
Old 09-17-2011, 02:58 PM
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MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rory View Post
However, I think it might have actually been ok to ask them what they feel for her. And I don't think you need to hide that you're jealous. You're entitled to feel that way, as long as you don't let it have too much of an impact how you act (which you haven't). Maybe it's even something you should let them, or at least Gia, know, while of course making sure she also knows that your feelings don't mean you want her to hang out with her less or in any other way to change her behaviour. I'm thinking that I would definitely want to know if something like this was making my partner feel insecure or jealous or bad. That information wouldn't, in itself, change how I act, but it's important to me they know they can talk to me and that I care about how they feel.
I agree with most of this. It's obvious than you [Annabel] are putting a lot of energy into respecting E&G'S feelings, their timetables, their doubts. If I were one of Gia's good friends, I'd point this out to her and tell her that you [Annabel] deserve the same consideration. Of course it wouldn't do to dictate to her that the first person (besides Eric) that she should be getting it on with after the pregnancy has to be the one who's been missing that aspect of your relationship for so long. As you quoted earlier,
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnabelMore View Post
Something that SourGirl posted on another thread --
"Nothing worthwhile ever came forced."

I like it... very helpful for me to remember right now.
You can't force true feelings. Gia doesn't "owe" it to you for you to be the first. But I'm so glad that it seems that she isn't panting for Liza. And odds are that you will be the first. The problem is letting her know that if she does start off with someone else before you, that that would hurt you... without making her feel that she's being put under pressure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnabelMore View Post
Could it be that Liza has come along in Eric's life now because he's feeling distant from Gia and wants someone new to feel special with? Could it even be that he's missing *me*??

I think it's more likely that he just thinks she's hot and sweet and it's not a lot more complicated than that. But thinking about things from that perspective... that maybe Eric is a human just like me with hurts and empty places and needs... made me realize that I don't usually think of him in quite that way, and that's a little messed up.
I think it's easy for me to see you as a person and not consider E&G as fully 3D, because you're the one who's been sharing with us on here. I'll have to keep in mind that Gia is on meds for her general problems with stress, and that Eric's a human being with pain in his past. You know them better than I do, obviously. But you're also caught up in your worries about how he'll react if you tell him straight that you love him (without any hedging about it, disguising the declaration as you have already done, twice). So I'll throw you my view from a distance and you can mash it together with your better knowledge about Eric and decide it they mix well:

I think it's more likely that he just thinks she's not as important to him as you are, so that a connection with her is not going to be as complicated to deal with as getting in deeper with you. Because she means less to him, she's less likely to hurt him. She's safe. You aren't.

I'm possibly projecting. But I see something of my past self (traces of which remain) in Eric's fear of getting hurt (again). I suspect that he needs to learn (as I needed to) the truth of the 3rd and 4rth components of my signature. I know from experience that if someone lets fear of getting hurt take over, they're more likely to have a fling with an attractive-but-casual person than getting real with somebody who - deep down - they know they care about more.

But a bird will never fly unless it spreads its wings and takes that leap.
__________________
If I can't dance, I want no part in your Revolution.
- Emma Goldman Anarchist and Polyamorous par excellence
The person who says something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.
- old Chinese proverb
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~ Anais Nin
I'd rather have a broken heart / Than have a heart of stone.
- from "Boundless Love (A Polyamory Song)" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson
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  #177  
Old 09-17-2011, 03:21 PM
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MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
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No, I don't think that Eric has a heart of stone. Obviously he doesn't.

Wacky idea: Do you think that it would do any good for you to ask him to go over (talk openly about) his experience with Jen? Maybe one-on-one with you. It wasn't clear to me from
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnabelMore View Post
That's my secondhand recollection of the whole thing anyway.
whether you got this from Eric, Gia, or both of them. (I'm assuming that it wasn't from other people.) Maybe Eric could do with getting it off his chest without Gia around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnabelMore View Post
It was Eric's firm contention when I tried to feel him out about a possible emotional connection more than a year ago that he doesn't love easily, doesn't know how to be romantic, doesn't want or need an emotional relationship outside of Gia. He said once that it's better to be "a minor villain in the first act" by letting someone know he's not in it for love, than to be the major bad guy at the end of the story by leading someone on.
a) This is only part of the situation. I can respect that he doesn't want to say "I love you". Can't he respect that you do want to say it?

b) How does his "doesn't want or need an emotional relationship outside of Gia" hold up under his present emotional relationship with Bee?

Speaking of whom, I am REALLY looking forward to your report on your first one-on-one babysitting session!

Hugs to you and Bee!
__________________
If I can't dance, I want no part in your Revolution.
- Emma Goldman Anarchist and Polyamorous par excellence
The person who says something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.
- old Chinese proverb
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~ Anais Nin
I'd rather have a broken heart / Than have a heart of stone.
- from "Boundless Love (A Polyamory Song)" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson
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  #178  
Old 09-17-2011, 06:15 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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"Jump into that water and see for yourself
Take a deep breath and hold it in, hold it in

She's got a secret and she wants to tell
But I made a promise to hold it in, hold it in

Baby I'm in love and maybe it's not to tell
Only thing that I can do is hold it in, hold it in

I was told that I'm a man now and I'm not allowed to cry
The only thing that I can do is hold it in, hold it in
Hah!

(Refrain) Life is "Oh my God, if I tell him, he'll tell her, and then she will know I like her!
Good grief!
I don't think that I can take this heartbreak any longer
I will not hold it in
Hoo! Hoo! Hoo!

Well thecouple with the baby and it's no secret why
Neither one was able to hold it in, hold it in

Kids in the streets yeah they're all getting high
Everybody's screaming "hold it in, hold it in!"
Ha-hey!

(Refrain)

If there's God, He's embarrassed and it's no secret why
The only thing that He can do is hold it in, hold it in

So I printed him a letter to be sent out to sea
Looking for a bottle to hold it in, hold it in
Ha!

(Refrain)"

-- "Hold It In", Jukebox the Ghost
__________________
The major players. Me, 30ish bi female. Gia, girlfriend of 4+ years. Clay, boyfriend/dom. Davis, ex/friend/"it's complicated." Eddie, roommate & fwb.
The supporting cast. Eric, Gia's husband. Bee, Gia and Eric's toddler. Dexter, Gia's lover. Helen, Eric's lover. Izzy and Nikki, Clay's partners. Liam, Eddie's husband.
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  #179  
Old 09-18-2011, 09:55 PM
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MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnabelMore View Post
"Hold It In", Jukebox the Ghost
Am I demonstrating just how out of the loop I am when I admit that I'd never heard of this group? After reading this post, I Googled title and band and came up with this video. thanks for the introduction!
__________________
If I can't dance, I want no part in your Revolution.
- Emma Goldman Anarchist and Polyamorous par excellence
The person who says something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.
- old Chinese proverb
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~ Anais Nin
I'd rather have a broken heart / Than have a heart of stone.
- from "Boundless Love (A Polyamory Song)" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson
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  #180  
Old 09-21-2011, 04:49 AM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight View Post
I think it's more likely that he just thinks she's not as important to him as you are, so that a connection with her is not going to be as complicated to deal with as getting in deeper with you. Because she means less to him, she's less likely to hurt him. She's safe. You aren't.
Totally possible! And, if it is the case, he may or may not be aware of it.

But honestly, as surprising as it might seem considering how much I've obsessed over it here in the past, I'm feeling content to not worry about what Eric knows/feels right now. He is warm to me and obviously cares for me as a friend, values me in his life, trusts me. I mean, don't kill me if I come back next week moaning about the situation again, but that's enough for me for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight View Post
Wacky idea: Do you think that it would do any good for you to ask him to go over (talk openly about) his experience with Jen? Maybe one-on-one with you. It wasn't clear to me fromwhether you got this from Eric, Gia, or both of them. (I'm assuming that it wasn't from other people.) Maybe Eric could do with getting it off his chest without Gia around.
The story came out from them to me in a series of conversations, woven in with other topics, over the course of the first few months of my involvement with them, with occasional deeper pieces popping up after that. They were pretty thorough, looking back, even if it took them a while to get it all out. Mutual friends have also added some of their own perspectives to my understanding of the situation.

I could see asking Eric more about it, but I know it's a difficult subject for him... not exactly a "trigger" but certainly not pleasant... so I probably wouldn't unless there was something specific I wanted to ask.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight View Post
a) This is only part of the situation. I can respect that he doesn't want to say "I love you". Can't he respect that you do want to say it?
Ha, not unless I tell him that I want to say it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight View Post
b) How does his "doesn't want or need an emotional relationship outside of Gia" hold up under his present emotional relationship with Bee?
I get what you're saying, but being open to the child you've always wanted is not quite the same as being open to a new romantic partner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight View Post
Speaking of whom, I am REALLY looking forward to your report on your first one-on-one babysitting session!

Hugs to you and Bee!
See the next post! And yay hugs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight View Post
Am I demonstrating just how out of the loop I am when I admit that I'd never heard of this group? After reading this post, I Googled title and band and came up with this video. thanks for the introduction!
You're welcome! Such a cute vid. And don't worry, I'd never heard of them either before they popped up on my pandora.com radio station.
__________________
The major players. Me, 30ish bi female. Gia, girlfriend of 4+ years. Clay, boyfriend/dom. Davis, ex/friend/"it's complicated." Eddie, roommate & fwb.
The supporting cast. Eric, Gia's husband. Bee, Gia and Eric's toddler. Dexter, Gia's lover. Helen, Eric's lover. Izzy and Nikki, Clay's partners. Liam, Eddie's husband.
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