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  #861  
Old 06-13-2014, 12:36 AM
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I am heavily weighing the possibility of distancing myself from her. Against my spouse's wishes and therapist's opinions, I am considering moving out of the main home. It is not conducive to her mental health and well-being or my healing efforts to be around her. I have no idea how living separately and co-parenting are going to work. I have not thought about the logistics. He is against it, so I am sure it will lead to arguments. We have two other children to consider. Isolating her is not the answer. I am not willing to ship her away to some residential treatment facility. Some experts recommend that. It seems counterproductive.

I am not keen on most Attachment Therapy methods. Her therapist is one of the few in the state who can provide the kind she needs. It is DDP or Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy. I am trying to learn all that I can about this method of treatment. As long as coercion and regressive tactics are not applied, it seems safe. I have thought about limiting my contact with her to the bare minimum, which will be during her therapy and family therapy only. I am only considering that much contact because this model of treatment requires my participation. The presence of the detached parent supposedly helps eliminate the opportunity for the child to manipulate and lie.

She is a complicated case because she is disinhibited. She can fool even the best. This is why the family therapist and her teacher have not picked up on anything. She comes off as being together and well-adjusted. She knows what to say, how to act, and even what to do in social settings to appear normal. Every so often her true colours will show, but she has trained herself to stay calm. The forced affection towards me was not to alarm people. The first 50 of 140 minutes involved trying to break through the composed image she was presenting. It took making her mad to get her to express any kind of emotion. There was a cooling off period before she was even willing to talk again.

Attachment Disorders can be gotten over, but not without years of intensive therapy. I suppose that is why her therapist is increasing the length of her sessions. She will now be going in two hour increments every week. Starting on 23 June, the family will be partaking in morning sessions of therapy with her in three hour increments for 10 days. We agreed to do it because that is during her term break. I was not taking her out of school on some type of medical leave.

I blame myself for this. The only positive is he stopped me from doing what I had originally planned. Thank you, Jesus, for him blocking the whole co-parent/co-primary BS. It is a great thing that he stopped me from bouncing our children in between homes. If I had done that, she would have no bond with him either. At least she is capable of love and being close to people. She loves him, her nanny, and siblings. The two adults have been consistent caregivers in her life. I never dreamed I would be one of those parents whose children ran to their nanny instead of them.

I am not hopeful. People can spin it how they want. I can keep it real, though. No pussy should have come before my child. I do not believe it was ignorance. It was indifference and arrogance. I had to know what I was doing would mess my child up. I am only sorry I was dismissive and did not listen to my first mind that told me two relationships being compartmentalised and co-parenting would not benefit any one in the long run. My child is walking proof. I cannot blame anyone but myself. I saw the relationship becoming too demanding. I knew I should have ended it. I was selfish, caught up in myself, and only worried about my life. For what? Someone I did not even love and was only loyal to. I over compensated in my relationship and aacrificed the one with my child. What did Eminem say on "Superman?" "Bitches; they come; they go." No slight to Kensi, but she was not worth any of what happened. Especially this. I am going to leave that alone because I feel something rising up in me, and it is not fairy floss and love me like a love song friendly.

My child has taken to calling me Eli, which is one of my nicknames. I guess I should be thankful that she is saying anything to/or about me, huh? It is more than depressing. I am not sure if it is the depression or if I really feel this way, but I am not sure I deserve a second (or third-tenth plus) chance. I have proven that I am not a source of stability time and time again. I had over four years to make amends, and I continued to fail at parenting her (well). I was not absent because of PND, being in the armed forces, or even my chosen career. I was voluntarily absent because of a relationship and selfishness. How do you face that and reconcile it?

I am being mindful of her needs, and I want her to get better. I am just incredibly disappointed in myself.

As always, thank you, Kevin. I will be watching that movie today. I have a day off, so today is a good day for that.

Thank you, Wildflowers. I will search for that book. Adding it to my ever growing list.
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  #862  
Old 06-13-2014, 06:08 PM
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I feel that during "the Kensi years," you were probably in some kind of state of denial. On some level you knew (or suspected) that the road you were on was going to lead to some Very Bad Things, but you ignored the warnings your subconscious was trying to issue. But I'm also inclined to speculate that you didn't know -- couldn't have known -- specifically what kind of damage was going to happen as a result of your actions. I don't think you knew your five-year-old in particular would be the one to take the lion's share of the damage, in the particular way that she did. I could be wrong but I would suggest that as a possibility.

It's not hard to imagine why you'd want to remove yourself from your daughter's home so as not to get on her already-raw nerves, but I have to side with Matt and your therapist based on what I know. First of all, you need to live where Matt lives. Second of all, you need to live where your other two children live. As bad as your five-year-old has been damaged, the rest of your loved ones (to whom you are responsible) shouldn't be sacrificed on that altar. We need to find another way to help your daughter, some kind of a compromise that doesn't compound the problem with damage to other people as well.

And, I even think it's necessary (if aggravating) for your daughter to be exposed to your company in measured doses. The damage she's suffered so far was the result of you not being there for her. Refraining from being there for her now will only worsen the damage, even if your company makes her angry. She at least needs to know that you are now available to her and will remain so, even if she chooses to never take up on that offer.

I feel that the best thing to do is to continue living in the same house, but modify your interactions with your daughter so that you are being very respectful towards her and giving her some space. And find a way to communicate with her that you aren't trying to abandon her again, you're just trying to let her be the one to decide if and when you and she can be friends. Find a way to communicate with her that you very much want to be her friend.

I would avoid taking any big huge steps here; I would stick to very tiny, very careful steps. Don't change your daughter's environment. Supply her with an environment that she can depend on, something where she knows the rules and can plan her life around them. Mom already disappeared from her life one time. Let's be sure it doesn't happen again. As I said your presence may anger your daughter, but it's very likely that your daughter needs to feel a lot of anger before she can heal. Anger is one of the steps of the mourning process.

So back away a little, enough to show that you respect her, but not so much that she will misunderstand and suppose that you've decided you want to abandon her for good. There's a really delicate balance that needs to be attempted here. Trust your therapist's counsel, and trust Matt's counsel too. Matt does, after all, have more of an in with your daughter and probably a better feel for what she is feeling and going through.

I don't mean to pat you on the back and say, "There there, you did fine." I wouldn't pat my own mother on the back either -- not like that. But I will reiterate that the past is forever cemented. If you spend too much thought/time/energy dwelling on it, you may miss out on your chance to improve the one thing that can be improved: the present. I don't think anyone can promise you 100% healing for your daughter, far less 100% restoration of the ideal mother-daughter relationship. But we can sure try to work as many repairs as possible. Even if the most we can accomplish is 1% healing, we have to try.

Don't give up. Just keep on trying to approach her with as much tenderness and deference as possible, even if she rejects you again and again and again. The situation is complicated because she is very young. She does still need parental guidance. Children still need limits, rules to live by. So you can't allow her anger to grow into an inferno that destroys everything. She needs to remember that reasonable people try to be diplomatic with each other. She needs to grow up with that wisdom in her soul.

I'll of course continue to follow this thread and be helpful in any way I can. Some of my advice will be fit for the dumpster, but I'll keep trying anyway in case some of it might prove to be useful.

Hope you enjoy the movie, it's one of my faves.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
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  #863  
Old 06-13-2014, 06:33 PM
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What Kevin said. It's my opinion that removing yourself will just make the problem worse in the long run. Your daughter has had some HUGE changes in her life this last year. You not being around, a near divorce, a move, school started, new sister and now mom is always around. That's a lot for any child to deal with.

BE THERE AND PRESENT, but don't hover, don't force it. You can ask about her day and accept whatever she offers. If she wants alone time when she gets home from school, let her have it, but be around. It will eventually make a difference for her to know that you are there, maybe not soon, but eventually.

See your therapist and discuss your current depression immediately!
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  #864  
Old 06-13-2014, 09:41 PM
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Good morning. I woke up with a different perspective this morning. Bit more optimistic than I have been in the past few days.

Our oldest has picked up on the tension. Tensions have been mounting for the past month. Plus, the changes impossible were to ignore. I went from not picking up or taking the oldest at all to picking her up and taking her every day but Friday. It went from built-in daily bonding in the afternoon with my youngest daughter to meeting the nanny at a halfway point, so I could take her to her afternoon dance classes and now therapy only. Yes, I have that minimal amount of contact with her. We virtually have no contact at home these days. Breakfast and dinner. The way our home is designed, Matt and I have a master floor. It is designed like a flat without a kitchen. Their bedrooms are on the floor above ours, and even if she is on the master floor, there is no guarantee she will see me. She does not have to see me after about 6-7:30, which is generally when we eat dinner.

SNeacail, I am back in therapy. The depression was affecting me more than the prior time. I was functional then and not crippled by it. I was already feeling guilty about not being there, and usually I could dispel any negative thoughts. I had no luck this time, and I knew I needed help. It was all too reminiscent of PND, and it took me the first nine months of my son's life to properly bond with him. Research now shows that the incidence of maternal depression is higher when a child is four than in the months following a child's birth. I was depressed during my pregnancy with him, which was a predicted outcome. I was at a significantly higher risk for PND, so I knew what I was working with. Unlike then, I am not ashamed of seeking help. I am still nursing my son, and though there are "safe" drugs, I would rather not take anything.

There has been a lot of upheaval in the past year. Even without any of those things, my efforts were just too late, and I have lost interest in doing anything I did from June/July 2013-May 2014. I am fighting the urge to only mother two out of three children. I know I need to be there and present, and I am determined to hold on to that.

I told our oldest what was going on. Ila was a fountain of wisdom on this subject because she has been there. Albeit with different criteria met but on the spectrum. It helps having someone who has overcome RAD, which is on the more extreme and severe spectrum of attachment disorders. From her experience, they never go away, but you can manage them. While she has no contact with her biological mother, she also does not hate her. She said she has triggers, but she knows how to cope when that happens. Her treatment was more broad because her outcomes were more along the lines of teaching her how to attach to people in a healthy way, helping her learn that nothing was her fault, rebuilding her self-esteem and self-worth, healthy ways of expressing emotions, etc. She said treatment was hard and painful because she no longer had the option to run away from the issues that had been hurting her. She had to identify the painful memories one by one in order to give the therapist a raw look into what happened in her world. She remembers naming the people involved in whatever transpired. She explained that the goal of that was to bring out raw emotion and allow her to experience them again. It is a corrective measure. A healing element was grieving for her past and learning to embrace something more positive. She went through all the stages of grief, and she said it was not easy because the whole process involves fear, uncertainty, having to let go of control, pain, fear, sadness, and all emotions attached to those negative memories. It was interesting to hear from someone who had direct experience with attachment issues. She said no physicality other than comforting her was provided. I have heard about the controversial methods like holding, and that was one of my fears.

She offered her own set of suggestions and warnings from her experiences in her childhood. She said to expect her to resist the inclination to trust me. She described it as a survival of the fittest, and her view means she has to fight what does not feel natural. Nature/nurture vs. I am in this on my own. Trusting and loving me are unnatural. She thinks her defence mechanism will be to push me away at the first sign of her heart softening towards me or even the first glimpse of trust, which is what happened this time. Her personal range of emotions ranged from sadness to anger, and it had nothing to do with developing a secure attachment. It was the fear of letting go and losing control. She said to expect her talk back, be defiant, or disrespectful for no reason other than she thinks she can be. She has already started that with cheekily calling me Eli. She said do not avoid punishment and taking away things she likes. She remembers spending the ages of 9-10 on punishment for her attitude, disrespectful behaviour, and refusal to respect authority. My child has to learn boundaries, rules, and structure with me. She said be selective about trusting her because manipulation might come down the line. She said she tried all kinds of tactics to get out of therapy. If she can get something out of the deal or guilt me into doing it, I would be playing into her hands. She said be suspicious of her showing affection. It means she wants something, and the minute it is not given, she will flip on me. She said I need to change back to what I was doing and remain a constant presence in her life. It will show her that I am not going anywhere, and that she is not in control of me or this.
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  #865  
Old 06-13-2014, 10:03 PM
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Re:
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"It helps having someone who has overcome RAD ..."
And how. It sounds to me like you got some good advice there.
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  #866  
Old 06-17-2014, 08:05 PM
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I am up with my hubby watching the World Cup. Unfortunately for us, it comes on during the small hours of the morning, so it means waking up early or going to bed later to see some of the games. I am not rooting for anyone in particular. We are placing bets, though. We are both confident that Australia will more than likely lose against Spain, Chile, and the Netherlands.

We are bonding over sports, and I welcome the time with him. He is more in to the game than me, but it is nice to have some quiet time before our children wake up. It is not exactly quiet, as he gets very excited during these games. Regardless as to what is going on with our child or even with me, we still have to take care of our marriage.

I like his lighthearted nature. He started singing Aloe Blacc's, "The Man," after he won a bet earlier this week. "You can tell everybody. Go ahead and tell everybody. I'm the man. I'm the man. I'm the man." It made me laugh because it was out of character for him. I am accustomed to serious, sarcasm loving Matt. These days he is working overtime to keep my spirits high, and I cannot thank him for that. He is doing something right because the atmosphere is shifting.

I have more clarification regarding Eis and this disorder. I am learning about AD/RAD and reading about therapeutic parenting. She has therapy this afternoon. I am mentally preparing myself for a fight. I have found myself having to count backwards to stop myself from OJ'ing her. The defiance is rearing its ugly head. We have moments where we are not speaking and moments where she challenges me and tries to go toe to toe and word for word. Last night's brouhaha was over her refusal to do homework. (She told me, "No, you do it.") It was really hard not to tell her, "I brought you in this world screaming, and I can and just might take you out silently. Try me." I immediately remembered that the one rule of thumb is to take nothing she says personally, so I had to let it roll off. I understand why education and new parenting are so important. Her defiance, calling me by my first name, overall disrespectful behaviour, etc. are her ways of exerting and exercising her need to feel in control of me. She has to have control because it gives her the sense of making me feel like I have lost something. Similar to the way that she "lost" me. That same control is what she pulls out to maintain her own safety it is just the two of us. Matt neutralises and diffuses the situation because she can cling to him and use him as a buffer when I am in the same room. My constant and consistent presence triggers and confuses her, but her therapist said that it is a good thing. She has to learn that she cannot run away or avoid her problems. Her problem is me, so she is having to face me. She had no choice but to be around me yesterday, and it made her mad because circumstances were out of her control. This is not something she chooses to do. It is her way of adapting and what she has learned over time.

My good days will always outweigh my bad days. I hope everyone is doing well. I am smiling and happy for the first time in several weeks. If I feel like it later on tonight, I will do a post about my best friend and Kensi-gate.

Back to the game before the mini humans wake up.

Last edited by FullofLove1052; 06-18-2014 at 03:25 AM.
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Old 06-17-2014, 08:42 PM
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I have found myself having to count backwards to stop myself from OJ'ing her. The defiance is rearing its ugly head. We have moments where we are not speaking and moments where she challenges me and tries to go toe to toe and word for word. Last night's brouhaha was over her refusal to do homework. (She told me, "No, you do it.") It was really hard not to tell her, "I brought you in this world screaming, and I can and just might take you out silently. Try me."
LOL! I remember days like these. Now that I only have one teenager at home and he seems to have come out of the puberty emotional stage, things are much better. Warning: boys between the ages of 11-14 +/_ get super emotional (PMS 24/7)

Take heart, some of this is just normal school age behavior, even the need for control and the subsequent defiance. It seem that all the other issues are just escalating things.

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I immediately remembered that the one rule of thumb is to take nothing she says personally, so I had to let it roll off.
This is extremely difficult! Ask any parent and they will tell you that you are not alone in this struggle. I curse my dad every time my kid did something like this because he was the one who said he hoped I would get a child just as strong willed and hard headed as his kid.

Good luck tonight!
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Old 06-18-2014, 12:24 AM
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Yeah, sometimes it's just a kid being a kid. (A 5-going-on-15 kid.)
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Old 06-18-2014, 07:46 PM
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I blame myself for this. The only positive is he stopped me from doing what I had originally planned. Thank you, Jesus, for him blocking the whole co-parent/co-primary BS. It is a great thing that he stopped me from bouncing our children in between homes. If I had done that, she would have no bond with him either. At least she is capable of love and being close to people. She loves him, her nanny, and siblings. The two adults have been consistent caregivers in her life. I never dreamed I would be one of those parents whose children ran to their nanny instead of them.

I am not hopeful. People can spin it how they want. I can keep it real, though. No pussy should have come before my child. I do not believe it was ignorance. It was indifference and arrogance. I had to know what I was doing would mess my child up. I am only sorry I was dismissive and did not listen to my first mind that told me two relationships being compartmentalised and co-parenting would not benefit any one in the long run. My child is walking proof. I cannot blame anyone but myself. I saw the relationship becoming too demanding. I knew I should have ended it. I was selfish, caught up in myself, and only worried about my life. For what? Someone I did not even love and was only loyal to. I over compensated in my relationship and sacrificed the one with my child.

I havent posted or check in here in a long time ... So sorry to hear this Ry. A friend and member here sent me this link and also a link to an article which gives a similar opposing view to children being exposed to poly.

http://www.drkarenruskin.com/polyamo...-for-children/

I dont mean to hijack your blog with this or to beat a dead horse or make your depression worse but some people might like to see this and if there is a thread better suited for this people should feel free to post it there if they feel its relevant.


My daughter was about 13 when she discovered all about my then wife's other relationship ....so there is a big age difference ....however she said countless times in the early aftermath of that "she chose that over us " ....and now she /they choose pretty much everything and everybody over her. Maybe someday they will reconcile but I dont see any signs of it now only anger, annoyance or indifference.

People think scheduled "quality " time is some how balances that scale. I've learned (through the experience of the past few yrs ) that the special moments ...the special bonding time is rarely scheduled...you have to be there when it happens. Ive argued this very principle in the context of romantic partners with other members here but I think it has a greater meaning with kids. With a heavy sex / pussy (quoted from above ) focus on "dates" or " sleep overs" it is more likely to schedule that type of special moments.
However time is a zero sum game.


Take care D


Ps 47 minutes in as I type ...spain is up 2 to 0 over Chile

Last edited by dingedheart; 06-18-2014 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 06-18-2014, 09:17 PM
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I havent posted or check in here in a long time ... So sorry to hear this Ry. A friend and member here sent me this link and also a link to an article which gives a similar opposing view to children being exposed to poly.

http://www.drkarenruskin.com/polyamo...-for-children/

I dont mean to hijack your blog with this or to beat a dead horse or make your depression worse but some people might like to see this and if there is a thread better suited for this people should feel free to post it there if they feel its relevant.
No worries. I needed this article about six years ago. I was pregnant, so I had time to change whatever I was thinking.

I would not fault my daughter's therapist if she was in agreement with that article. She is trying to be diplomatic, but if I was her, I would be thinking, "This blood woman possibly ruined the chance of ever having a relationship with her child. What does she have to show for it?" Wait. I can answer that. I was able to be myself in all my selfish glory. I almost lost my marriage. I lost my husband's respect and trust. Oh and that relationship? Dead, buried, and nothing but scattered ashes. Oh, I have a hell of a lot to show for my choices.

Quote:
My daughter was about 13 when she discovered all about my then wife's other relationship ....so there is a big age difference ....however she said countless times in the early aftermath of that "she chose that over us " ....and now she /they choose pretty much everything and everybody over her. Maybe someday they will reconcile but I dont see any signs of it now only anger, annoyance or indifference.
One day they might reconcile. If they choose to, it has to be on their time. Has your ex-wife tried to do anything to heal what has been broken, or is she caught up in herself?

The only reason I am trying now is because an undiagnosed disorder will only get worse before it gets better. Studies show Dissociative Identity Disorder or simply, multiple personality disorder, starts with an attachment disorder. I am not asking for that. Even without the formal or suspected diagnosis, she still has depression, anger issues, self-worth, and self-esteem issues. It is hard for me to hear her talking down on herself. She did it during therapy. I was waiting for her to call herself a dirty, rotten lousy child. I am not trying to be the reason she starts cutting to cope with pain or the reason we bury a child. I also do not need her being mistreated, abused, or taken advantage of because she feels like that is all she deserves. The general opinion is she is at a good age to be treated for it, so the first outcome is not to restore our relationship. I want her to be healthy.

Quote:
People think scheduled "quality " time is some how balances that scale. I've learned (through the experience of the past few yrs ) that the special moments ...the special bonding time is rarely scheduled...you have to be there when it happens. Ive argued this very principle in the context of romantic partners with other members here but I think it has a greater meaning with kids. With a heavy sex / pussy (quoted from above ) focus on "dates" or " sleep overs" it is more likely to schedule that type of special moments.
Scheduled time is certainly not where it is at for me. I am learning that I enjoy spontaneity and going with the flow. For me, it is those moments that I cannot schedule or predict. I cannot predict when my son will snuggle up under me while I am reading a book and just sit there quietly. It is not unusual for our oldest to ask me if I have time do watch a movie with her, or if I want to go to Lindt Cafe. It is times like that where she confides in me, and we continue to build on our relationship. Before she started rejecting me, I enjoyed talking to our youngest before her bedtime. Over the past year, it was not unusual for me to walk by her room and for her to ask me I wanted to join her for a tea party. I sucked at imaginative play, but I was getting better. Playing with Barbies and tea parties were a challenge. I found a happy medium when the Langham hosted a Barbie Tiffin. I always said yes because whatever I was doing was not more important than spending that time with her. If only I had learned that lesson circa 2009 or so.

When I stopped dating/having overnights/letting loyalty affect my judgement and started spending quality, unscripted time with my children, I learned they were amazing little mini humans.

Quote:
However time is a zero sum game.
Absolutely. I could not be in two places at once, and it stood to reason something, several things, or in my case, every little thing was going to suffer and take a hit. I want my children to be independent, but I also want them to be able trust and believe in the fact that I will always have their backs.

I listened to my child describe several times where she sought me out only to realise I was not there. Some would argue, "Maybe you were at work, with friends, or x place." My child has specifically isolated the times where she was told I was with my ex. She has basically created a mental catalogue. It helps with imagery and recreating the moments, but no wonder she is filled with resentment. The number keeps rising. She could not give a definitive number of times it happened, but hearing her say "a lot," was more than I needed to hear. Once is truly too many when it comes to that. At no point should I have ever been unavailable to her. Damn the reason. If my job had been the culprit, I would have changed things immediately. My career did not become established until well into the first years of her life. At that point, the damage was done, so it made no difference how many hours I was working. She was accustomed to it.

Looking back at my childhood, I cannot think of one time where I needed my mum and she was nowhere to be found. I have always been close to my daddy, but my daddy was not my mum. Sometimes I wanted my mum's love and comfort. No other substitute would do. From that angle, I understand my child's frustrations and questions.

I cannot harp on or change the past, but in the words of Rascal Flatts, "I am wishing I could rewind."

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Ps 47 minutes in as I type ...spain is up 2 to 0 over Chile
Chile won. They knocked Spain out!
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