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  #441  
Old 05-26-2013, 06:54 PM
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Amen I'm with choctaw103, I don't think you're trying to sport some label, you're just trying to clarify what's happened so far. It's clear to me that things seemed to be going pretty smoothly the first eight years; it was the last five years where things got muddled. I believe one can "be" poly (orientation) even if one is not currently "living" poly (situation). Not that labels or definitions even matter, beyond what clarifies communication. In this case, the many posts you write clear things up satisfactorily for me. I just wish you well on your present and future journey.
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  #442  
Old 05-26-2013, 08:13 PM
FullofLove1052 FullofLove1052 is offline
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I attended Mass this morning, and the word was meant for me. I never dreamed that a religious message would help clarify thoughts and provide me with a perspective that I needed. I will do a separate post to explain it.

The word made me think about some things. I was thinking about all the mistakes we made, and though I can change many things, there is one thing that no matter what, it might still present problems. I have figured out one of the reasons why I am hesitant to try and balance another relationship again: time. 24 hours is not that long, and when there are four people wanting and needing your attention and you have wants/needs of your own, it seems like even less. Before I open my eyes with the dawn of a new day, I will know that at least 40% of my time is already gone. 60% is left for sleeping, taking care of myself/alone time/hobbies/reading/quiet time/whatever, tending to my husband, and spending time with my children. Where would another relationship fit into that? Seeing someone once a week? It sounds like it sucks.

There is nothing to stop me from making the same mistakes with time management again. The only differences are one child will be at school during the day, and my new work hours will be more consistent. No late nights. No 1:6, 1:4, etc. call rota. I will have more control of my schedule because of what and who I am electing to work with. My daughter's school day ends at 3, so I already have it in my mind that I want to be home by a certain time. The school had a brilliant idea. They have built-in parent/child time every morning before their days begin. It is only 30 minutes, but it is time added to every day that I might not have had any other way.

These new changes would only cover my end, though. There is no guarantee our schedules would ever align. I am working with Matt. I have not worked with her, yet. Along with these new changes brings new responsibilities like helping with homework and being involved in school related happenings, and if school is anything like it was for me, there will be homework in some form every day. I had homework on breaks, bank holidays, and everything in between. One year I had homework the day AFTER the term ended. I had to drop it off at the school.

I can fix everything I did wrong and someone still might get 20% or less of my time. It might not even be a conscientious choice on my part. Calendars are great, but I have to be real. I like spontaneity in a relationship. I do not want to spend time with somebody because the calendar says so. There are times I do not want to be around my husband. The only people I want to be around every day without fail are my children. I can handle a day or two without being around Matt. I will have more free time, but I am sure it will not be idle time all the time. I dislike the idea of squeezing a relationship in when I have idle time. I can imagine how good it would be to be a time filler.

This is the first time I have thought about this in great detail. The only reason is because on the drive home, he asked me to present what kind of model I would like if I were to try poly again. He wants it to be detailed and spelled out by the day like a custody agreement. I have no idea, but I have been trying to figure out how to prevent this from happening to him again or to another poor person. Living together is not an option. A co-primary is likely unattainable and probably out. I see no model other than secondary that would work. Secondary is looking more and more like a second class citizen with all the stipulations. It would not be balanced. And this is why I am questioning myself. I just feel like most people would have some idea of how to make it work. Maybe I am looking at it wrong.
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  #443  
Old 05-27-2013, 09:31 PM
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It seems to me that the problem is that you are desiring a co-primary poly relationship, whereas Matt is not so keen on that concept and would prefer that any poly partner be a secondary -- with, as you said, all the stipulations. I guess you have three possible options:
  • accept the secondary partner model,
  • insist on the co-primary model,
  • agree to a monogamous life.
If you insist on the co-primary model, you may lose Matt (and your marriage, and probably face a custody battle). Either of the other two options leaves you less than 100% satisfied in some way. Alas, there are no ways of producing a fourth option that I can see, shy of waving a magic wand and causing Matt to become okay about the co-primary idea.

I could be wrong of course. It's technically possible that Matt would change his mind (for some unknown reason). At this moment, it seems surprising to me that Matt would consider poly at all. He's had all he can take of poly, hasn't he? I would tread that area cautiously. Would he want Si to be a co-primary? Surely not. That seems to set a precedent.

Like you said, there are only 24 hours in a day. Matt is counting those hours. I suspect that's why he wants to know exactly what to expect as far as which hours will go where (if there is a poly situation).

I don't suppose there's any harm in playing out the hypotheticals, but in practice, I would steer clear of any poly situation for the moment. I admit I'm surprised Matt raised the subject of poly; I'd have thought he wouldn't even want to go there. Maybe he sees it as inevitable in the future and wants some kind of control over it ahead of time? It is of course possible that he has detoxed and become somewhat more poly-friendly, but I'd feel leery about counting on that, especially so soon after all the drama and arguments.

Obviously you're closer to the situation and have a better feel for it, so I could be totally wrong but those are my thoughts anyway, in case part of it might help.
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  #444  
Old 05-28-2013, 12:41 AM
CattivaGattina CattivaGattina is offline
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As a secondary (mind you I do live-in with my other partner and his primary along with mine) I can attest that being a secondary does not mean you are treated as a second class citizen. Yes there are scheduling issues at times (making sure that times that we want are clear with both primaries) but we still get a minimum of one day/night just to ourselves and outside of those times we still get to spend time together. If there are things we want to do generally we just plan on doing them and letting our partners know. Even before we moved in there those things existed. All that changed when we moved in is that if either of sleep alone during the night before (and the other's partner is there) when we get up in the morning we spend a little time cuddling together and we see each other more frequently.

I'm unsure what stipulations Matt has on a secondary relationship and how that may change things.
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  #445  
Old 05-28-2013, 04:23 AM
FullofLove1052 FullofLove1052 is offline
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Seeing as how the next 48 hours will be something like a whirlwind, I am doing a post now. After work, I am hopping on a flight to New Orleans. My brother is having surgery tomorrow morning. It really sucks that he does not live in the UK or somewhere closer, but I am not complaining. Family means everything to me, and I am close with all four of my siblings. My children and Matt are not going because it is a long trip but a short stay. I will be stepping off an int'l flight and going straight to work. I am only missing one day of work: Wednesday. On Friday, we are off to Australia for our holiday, so I need to get as much work done as possible. Jet-lag is no concern of mine. I have been around Matt too long because I am thinking, "I really do have this."

Kevin, I was initially concerned when Matt raised that question. My eyebrow was raised, and I was giving him a side eye. I know how he is.

I do not want believe I want another co-primary. That is trouble and bad news. I know myself, and I know it would be far too easy to get off track again. I have learned an unforgettable lesson. I did not believe in hierarchy before. If I decide to do it and attempt to be successful, that belief is going to have to change, or I am not putting myself in that position. I could have the purest of intentions and make of mess of it all. I think even a secondary model is probably too much at this point. I could live with a monogamous life. It was an adjustment in the beginning, but I am adapting and adjusting more and more. I could either suck it up or complain about the mess I helped to create. I chose to make the best of it.

Matt is not going to change. The one way he would is if Si was to stay here, and that is not happening. If she did, she would be 16k km away and not even close. At minimum, it is a solid 18 hours by flight. That is 12 or so to Changi and about 6 or so to Melbourne. I am sure he would go along with it then. At 16k km, she could be anything she wanted to be, and I bet there would be zero arguments from him. No overnights, no dates, and none of the worries he would have with a local person.

He has no problem with me being outside of the home and having a social life. It was never a control issue. It just became too much, and it was seriously like, "Did I see you or talk to you yesterday?" Not in a joking manner either. We live in the same house, and there was no excuse for that to ever be so. Some days it was like, "No, we were both working OT, but when I finally did get home, you were already sleep." It is horrible when you live together and scheduling conflicts only leave you with 5 minutes here and there. I think that is why I am committed to keeping a tight reign on my schedule, making sure we have breakfast and dinner together every day, and making sure we have more than one day a week to play catch-up. I do not want our date night(s) to turn into catching up on family or household business. We have been there and done that. We always used e-mails, texts, etc., but sometimes I prefer to talk face to face. That was sorely lacking.

I can see how it got to be too much. We already had one child. Granted, she was older and more independent when our son was born. As we all know, when a baby's born, your only priority is what the baby needs and sleeping when you get the chance. Most fathers do get neglected after the birth of a new child. Even more so when you are nursing. Add another relationship, returning to work, his career, maintaining a home, caring for the child that was already there, and it becomes easy to see how we ended up with so little time.

I am hesitant to get back into a relationship with Si right now or any time soon. I am steering clear of it. The good news is she is understanding and patient. I want to see how our new schedules will work out and how we balance the things that are on our plates before I even entertain the notion of a second relationship. My marriage is still requiring all of my attention. He is talking to me and opening up, but we have a long way to go. I am looking forward to meeting potential new therapists on Sunday/Monday. We had a month long reprieve because I burned out from processing and exploring my feelings, communicating, and everything else. I am ready to resume now.

He does see it as inevitable. It does not matter what I say. I know that look of, "Yeah, rightttt." He does not care for the idea, and I have been made aware. His reluctance to even settle into a monogamous marriage was a clear indicator that it is still on his mind. I do not blame him for wanting to have some type of idea as to what is crossing my mind. It helps knowing what he is and is not okay with. I asked him last week what he viewed as the drawbacks and negatives. They were things I pretty much knew and agreed with when I was in his shoes.

I saw Si yesterday. We had lunch with her. It was a Bank Holiday for us. We just had one a few weeks ago. I am not complaining because it was gorgeous day, and I spent it with my children. It was really good to see her and spend time with her. My children were happy to see her. Surprisingly, Matt did not have a problem with it. I asked to make sure he was really okay with it, and he just said, "That issue is worked out." Meaning she is not in the role of a third parent and is more of an aunt. He is happy with that. She is happy with it because she can still be part of their lives.

Si and I talked over lunch. We walked back to my house because it was nap time for the little duckies. I invited her over, and we had tea and just talked while they were sleeping. She showed me her new flat. It is very contemporary, and I love the colour scheme and overall design. She has impeccable taste. She seems excited about being somewhere new. Things with us are going really well. We do not see each other every day, but I do try to set time aside to grab lunch with her, get manicures, and we text every day. She invited me to a spa break at this place about 1.5 outside of London. I need to check with Matt to make sure he is okay with it, has no plans, and just to see how he feels. I am going over to her place after we get back to help her pack and for our bi-weekly movie night. It should be fun. We have not set a date. We will be back on the 9th, but after travelling all day, the bed will be my best friend until Monday morning. All in all, things are good on that front. I am still no closer to figuring out what I want unless I can figure out a way to make it work.

Things are improving with Matt. We cooked dinner together last night. I know his love language leans more towards the physical touch from time to time. He wrapped his arms around my waist and was kissing my neck. Cooking can be very sensual especially when you are feeding each other. After dinner, he was watching ESPN, and I was working on my thesis. I made sure that some part of my body was touching him. He seemed happy with that. We talked before he went to bed. He told me about his day, asked me about mine, and he opened up a little more. I have not read his letter, yet. He asked me to read it while I am alone and can focus. While I am in the friendly skies tonight, I will open it, read it, and start replying to it.

I am off to the gym and to a yoga class. I want to get them out of the way before my children and husband wake up.
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  #446  
Old 05-28-2013, 04:47 AM
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So, no co-primary plans; secondary only. I imagine you can work out by degrees what secondary will mean in detail to you and Matt. Keep the communication open, that is probably the most important thing.
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  #447  
Old 05-28-2013, 05:13 AM
FullofLove1052 FullofLove1052 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
So, no co-primary plans; secondary only. I imagine you can work out by degrees what secondary will mean in detail to you and Matt. Keep the communication open, that is probably the most important thing.
Mmhm. I do not see how a co-primary would work now. I have to be realistic. Time would not allow it, and I get the feeling needs would go unmet if I attempted that again. I am not comfortable with the idea of clicking my red ruby slippers and wishing that everything would balance out in due time. That would be a recipe for disaster.

I am not overly worried about the degree right now. He posed the question, and it made me think. It is the last thing on my mind. I have thought about what it would mean for Si. Technically, it would be a demotion. It is not to say that she is not still of major importance, but resources and time will inevitably prevent a healthy or balanced co-primary relationship. I realise that this model goes against the natural shape the relationship took for the greater part of 12 years, but some changes will likely have to be made.
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  #448  
Old 05-28-2013, 05:17 AM
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I'm sure the transition won't be easy, but there have been so many changes in recent months. This is something for Si to think about too: She will probably be a secondary (if a poly partner at all in this family).
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Old 05-28-2013, 01:49 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FullofLove1052 View Post
Mmhm. I do not see how a co-primary would work now... I have thought about what it would mean for Si. Technically, it would be a demotion. It is not to say that she is not still of major importance, but resources and time will inevitably prevent a healthy or balanced co-primary relationship. I realise that this model goes against the natural shape the relationship took for the greater part of 12 years, but some changes will likely have to be made.
Well, people and circumstances change. Your career ramped up, you had kids! Kids take a lot of time and energy, even with a full time nanny, I guess.

I am not clear, is Si moving to Australia or not? You talked of her new apartment and helping her pack? If she's not moving when you do, all this talk is moot.

You're still having twice a week movie nights, lunches, spa/mani-pedi days, chats over beverages. Sounds like she's still getting a lot of your time, despite her unclear status! Sort of like a non-sexual gf, it seems. More than a best friend, because of your history.
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  #450  
Old 05-28-2013, 02:47 PM
FullofLove1052 FullofLove1052 is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
Well, people and circumstances change. Your career ramped up, you had kids! Kids take a lot of time and energy, even with a full time nanny, I guess.

I am not clear, is Si moving to Australia or not? You talked of her new apartment and helping her pack? If she's not moving when you do, all this talk is moot.

You're still having twice a week movie nights, lunches, spa/mani-pedi days, chats over beverages. Sounds like she's still getting a lot of your time, despite her unclear status! Sort of like a non-sexual gf, it seems. More than a best friend, because of your history.
You are right, Mags. Things do change. I was with my children all day yesterday, and when I finally did get to bed, I fell asleep within minutes. I am not cut out for being a stay-at-home mother. That much is clear. I have a new level of respect for our nanny. My oldest kept me on my toes from about 7 AM until she took a nap around 2. My son is low maintenance. I was thrilled that it was not raining yesterday. After about hour two, I could not wait to get them out of the house and into something. It was a fun but very exhausting day.

Yes, she is moving. She is moving a couple of weeks before us, which is probably why it came up. It made me think, "How would I balance the two and avoid the same time management issues?" That is why a co-primary is not something I could realistically pursue. Relationships do change over time.

Non-sexual g/f is probably about right. Not just friends but not quite lovers. She actually is not getting that much of my time. An hour or two here or there is what it amounts to, and it is not always. For example, I might have seen her once last week. I know I talked to her via text every day. The way everything is now, we only have time when Matt is at work, out of the city, already has plans, or if either of us have no other plans. For example, if our schedules permit, we sometimes meet up for lunch. Yesterday he was at work, so we had lunch with her, and she came over after. If he had been off, the day would have played out differently. We got manicures one day, but it was when he had taken our children to a play date. We went to afternoon tea, when he was away on a trip. My children and I went to a play with Si, when he was having drinks with his friend. We had movie night one night when he was at a stag. I would not feel comfortable basing a relationship on whether or not Matt has plans and his social life. That is poly hell in the form of a "primary" running things. There are no scheduling conflicts because the two sets of plans never coincide. Now, there is never a point where I am out with her, and he is at home by himself or just with our children. That is just kind of the cards are continuing to fall. It works now because he cannot say anything. I am not missing any time with him. It is not taking anything away from our marriage. My children and I still get to see her. She is not infringing on him being a parent. There is no sex, and we have had one overnight stay since the fallout. She slept in another bedroom. He was on a trip when it happened, but he had given the okay for it.
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