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  #381  
Old 05-12-2013, 06:44 PM
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I believe you will get faith. Have patience with the process.

It's possible that Matt wants your forgiveness too, for any of his shortcomings. Whatever went wrong, involved three adults: you, Matt, and Si. You can't take all the responsibility for what went wrong, you have to let Matt and Si be responsible for their portions.

Matt gave you a special gift with the pink diamonds; maybe you can give Matt some kind of gift as a gesture of thanks. It would be a virtuous circle; no need to fear it.

Above all, let the good things in life be, and forgive yourself enough to receive precious gifts. Life is too short to live any other way.
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Old 05-12-2013, 07:07 PM
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I have already given him my forgiveness. Same with Si. Matt has forgiven me, and we are moving past it. We do not bring up the past. It was like wiping the slate clean and starting from scratch. I just have not forgiven myself, and I am left wondering why has he forgiven me when I do not feel like I deserve it.

A gesture of thanks is a good idea. I think I have an idea of what to get him. I will try to accept the gift and try to remember that he thinks I actually deserve it. Rejecting a gift is usually not a good idea. I am not trying to hurt his feelings or even make him think I do not like or appreciate it. Quite the opposite.
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Old 05-12-2013, 08:10 PM
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Well, I think you have the right idea: Center your attention on saying thanks, rather than questioning the giver. It is kind of like when we receive a compliment: Sometimes we are conditioned to respond with a, "Oh no I'm not that great," rather than just accepting the compliment for what it is and giving thanks. It's the right way to show appreciation to the person who gave the compliment -- or the gift.
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:08 AM
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Good morning. I intended to do this last night, but I drifted off into sleepyland.

We got home around 2ish yesterday afternoon, and it was an hour's drive from Gatwick to London. Matt and I talked the whole drive back. I am still not fully at ease with accepting what was gifted to me, but I have decided to try and work past my guilt. He has forgiven me, so I must deserve it, right?

Our children took their afternoon nap, and I decided to take one, too. I never get to sleep during the day. I woke up in time to help Matt with dinner. I like cooking together. The menu was pretty nice. We knew we wanted to do something special, since it was the first official and planned meal since everything had fallen apart. Tomato and mozzarella salad, Lobster bisque, Filet Mignon and butter poached lobster tails served with grilled asparagus and mashed potatoes (paired with Cabernet Sauvignon), Limoncello Granitas, and Eton Mess served with ice cream and paired with Pinot Gris. Our children ate with us, but they had something different. It took hours to prepare everything, but we did it and finished in perfect time.

Surprisingly, there was no awkward energy during dinner. We all talked some, but we decided to focus on our children and keeping things light-hearted.

After dinner, it was bath time and bed time for the little duckies. Si got to help and be part of what we do with them every night. I think this might have been the first time she has gotten to be part of it. It made our daughter happy. Some part of me expected Matt to block it, but he did not. I later checked in with him privately to make sure he was truly okay with it and not just going along with it like he used to. He quickly reminded me that if he had a problem with it, he would have said it and repeated it until I heard him loud and clear. I like his new assertiveness and firmness. He knows what he wants, and I respect him for speaking out.

Once they were in the bed, we headed downstairs to talk. After four days, everyone had the chance to address concerns, present any worries, and the chance to process any thoughts before we met up.

Si is going to move, and she will be living with us as originally planned. To give you an idea of how our new home is, where she will be living is separate from the main house. It was listed on the plans as a "mother-in-law" suite, but it is really a guest house that was added years after the house had been built. We changed the overall design and layout by adding another bedroom, expanding the bathroom, changing the kitchen from a kitchenette to a full kitchen with a breakfast bar, and some other changes. Si put up the funds for the renovations on where she would have been living. She was actively involved in selecting tiles, counter tops, appliances, flooring, etc., so for all intents and purposes, it is her home.

We discussed forgiveness, the roles that we all played in the fallout, things that we can do to make sure it never happens again, how to communicate effectively amongst the three of us, parenting and parenting styles, and an overall gauge of opinions and feelings on everything. Once we discussed all of the big issues, we pretty much just kind of talked about everything that has been going on in our individual lives the past two months. We talked about future plans. It was nice to just talk for a couple of hours. It was not just one person talking and running the conversation. We were all talking, listening, and overall, we seemed to mesh well. The communication style is different. Maybe because it is right now! All relationships seem to be on a healthier and healing path. I am happy about that.

I am still no closer to figuring out exactly what I want to do as far as being mono vs. poly. Si and I talked about our relationship after Matt had retired for the evening. (It was not intentional. He was drifting off any way, so I sent him to bed.) She is patient and understands, so in essence, she is waiting for me because she thinks our love is worth the wait. I cannot keep her waiting forever, though. I cannot figure out why I am struggling so much. I was honest with her last night. It was probably one of the most honest and soul baring conversations we have had to date. I am still in love with her. There are days where miss her and want to get back together, but I wonder what that would do to my marriage and the progress we have made. My marriage is fragile, and before I can worry about two relationships, I need to be able to successfully handle one. I am often torn, though. Everything is so fresh. Wounds have yet to heal. I need to seek clarity and give it more time.

In non-poly news. They have completed the renovations on Si's part of the home, and it looks amazing. I am impressed. I forwarded the e-mail to Si. I am sure she will see it when she wakes up. I received my first update of the week, and the home will be ready for us to move in earlier than expected. That was music to my ears. One less worry and strain on me.

Most of our furniture and belongings are already on the way. The removal process started well in advance due to potential customs and quarantine issues. I would be upset if we had to purchase even more furniture because of a hold-up. A few containers left a few weeks ago. In the event they arrive before we do, we have a built in cushion that will allow the stuff to be placed in storage with the company until we are ready for them to deliver it. Considering that it takes 6-9 weeks for most, and we are moving in June, I am sure a storage unit will not be needed. We have also started to process of shipping our vehicles. We were told to have a cushion of 14-21 days on top of the 5-7 week shipping period. Before leaving, our vehicles had to be steam cleaned and basically made to look showroom new. Oz has very strict import requirements, and we wanted to make sure we allowed room for delays. If they have to disinfect anything, that would be even more expenses. On top of items being shipped, we have arranged for certain things to be flown in via air freight. Moving overseas is stressful enough, so I welcome the chance to make things a bit easier.

We decided not to sell our home. Due to sentimental value, we decided not to get rid of it. We are going to use it as a holiday/rental property. We live minutes from King's Road, Sloane Square, and most of the spots tourists come to London to see. This is a prime piece of real estate. The offers for our house were out of this world, but we passed on all of them. The process to turn our home into a rental home was relatively simple. The company we are using to list our home is owned by close family friends, and I know they will make sure our property is taken care of. We will be retaining ownership of our home, earning a profit, and we will have somewhere familiar to stay when we visit London. It seems like a good idea. Most importantly, we made the decision together.

I am off to interrupt Matt's sleep because I feel like talking right now. He said that I can come to him at any time. I am finally taking him up on that.

Enjoy the rest of your Sunday, and Happy Monday everyone!

Ry

Last edited by FullofLove1052; 05-13-2013 at 04:48 AM.
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  #385  
Old 05-13-2013, 08:20 PM
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Re:
Quote:
"I am still not fully at ease with accepting what was gifted to me, but I have decided to try and work past my guilt. He has forgiven me, so I must deserve it, right?"
Exactly.

Re:
Quote:
"I like his new assertiveness and firmness. He knows what he wants, and I respect him for speaking out."
Agreed; hope to see more of that.

Re:
Quote:
"Most importantly, we made the decision together."
I believe that's the key.
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  #386  
Old 05-14-2013, 12:47 AM
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Do you two read each others blogs?
It's a little disconcerting how.... opposite they sound...
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  #387  
Old 05-14-2013, 01:05 AM
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Do you two read each others blogs?
It's a little disconcerting how.... opposite they sound...
No. It would make no difference. Something changes every hour. What happened 24 hours ago certainly does not apply today.
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  #388  
Old 05-14-2013, 03:35 AM
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I have a break from work, so I am doing my morning check-in.

A marriage with no trust is just about the hardest existence there is. I made some decisions that were not the best, so I know I brought this on myself. I am continuing to do with how I act, things I say, and my omissions. I am still making mistakes, and my judgement could be certainly better. I opt not to disclose all the details. I am often selfish, and I tend to do things the way I want to do. I am persuasive and guilty of talking people into doing what I think is best. That should not be a surprise to anyone.

Hubby and I do no see eye to eye on many things. Si's involvement with our children is still a hot topic. Though he made peace with her, he is not comfortable with her being a parental figure, and as I said a few pages back, he would never willingly agree to sign a parenting plan, commit to shared custody, or the division of time. Be it conducted privately or on the record. He is adamant about insuring that she has no legal say. Now or ever. He asked me to give him some time to figure out how he would like for her to be involved. That was revealed during our heated debate last night. The role of a family friend with minimal to no say is about all he wants. If he could, he would break our daughter from calling Si mum. A mother in Adelaide took the ex-husband and the step-mother to court to stop the child from calling the other woman "mum," so he might be trying to stop it. He thinks mum, mummy, mother, etc. all have special meanings and should not be taken lightly. A part-time parent is not enough to warrant being called that, and he believes in his soul that it is confusing for a child. He does not want her thinking that a parent is like a fleeting experience. He admitted what he forgave her for, and none of the actions regarding our children have been forgiven yet. That is not going to happen any time soon. She has to earn his trust back, and until she does, he is going to micromanage how much time she spends with them, supervised visits, and everything else. He spelled out his terms for her being minimally involved and gave concise reasons why he is being so hard. He does not trust her, and she knows it. Abide by his terms or she has the option to leave.

There was something that she and I discussed, but nothing came of it. That was an extreme that even I would not go to. I do have morals and scruples. I know I am not the poster child for ethics, but I acknowledge that making plans without him was wrong. I learned my lesson. He will not let it go, and he questions my every move regarding our children. The only thing that has changed is how he treats her. He is respectful, but he keeps her at a safe distance. I know that feeling. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, right? They agreed to seek counselling because realistically, their problems are deeply rooted. No amount of talking can resolve them. Waiting on them to rebuild a friendship could take years. I am not holding my breath.

She is no longer moving in with us. Honestly, I do not think he wants her to move. Period. I think he is tolerating it for the sake of our daughter, but that is where it ends. He is not healed from all the damage we caused, so it is unrealistic to expect them to be buddy buddy this soon. Moving in together has the makings of disaster written all over it. Ideally, he would probably prefer to work on their problems while continents apart. I almost wish they had never talked. It was less complicated when they were at odds. Crazyville, but it was not like this.

I have no one to blame but myself for the missing trust. Some of the things I have done in the past three weeks have not exactly been the most trustworthy. I know how important it is to be honest, truthful,and consistent, but it is so easy and comfortable to slip into my old ways. They are like those trusty nude court heels that are broken in and comfortable. In turn, I reduce the amount of trust he has in me. I earn a little, and then I manage to lose it all in the same breath.

We talked about the latest situation. He was pissed off. I am glad I knew what I was walking in to. Naturally, we argued. The only thing we argue about is anything and everything pertaining to the raising of our children and who should be involved. I say she should be involved just as much as him. He still wants to her involvement to be limited and little as possible. He wants to micromanage any contact. Basically, love our children from a distance and have no real input regarding how we raise them. There is no compromising on this, so I think this will continue to be a bone of contention in our marriage.

Our marriage has high days and low days. Our marriage is different because Matt opens his mouth, puts his foot down, and has no problem saying exactly what he thinks and feels. He is not rolling with the punches or doing anything because I want him to. I cannot talk him into doing anything. He has a mind of his own. He has opinions that must be respected. We see things differently and clash. We are working out all these different dynamics and kinks. It's not easy. We have problems. Darling, that is common knowledge! Right now, *insert given name* and I are trying to adjust to several changes. Every day is not going to be perfect and peachy. We have a long way to go. We know we are going to make mistakes on this new journey.

Despite the heated nature of our debate, I appreciate him coming to us and addressing his concerns. I understand why he was worried. He genuinely had a reason to question me. I have shown him who I am, so he knows what I am capable of. Red flag. We have decided to move past that as best we can. A new day has arrived, and we have the chance to be better than yesterday.

I have to get back to work.

Last edited by FullofLove1052; 05-14-2013 at 11:38 AM.
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  #389  
Old 05-14-2013, 01:33 PM
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I know you said you don't read each other's blogs, and I understand that. If DH wanted to blog here I would not read unless asked, there's something to be said for having a safe place to just put out your own POV and not worry about it. So I won't speak to what I've read, (not that i have read both your blogs in their entirety to be honest).

Instead I want to speak to the marriage of no trust. I totally understand how that feels, how sometimes it feels like it's just too much work, and you feel like it will never be enough. DH and I moved into poly, the wrong way. So we had to work on rebuilding trust. It's been five years and there are still small things we are working on and starting to see a therapist for how to get over the hurt. We've forgiven, and we've worked on rebuilding trust the problem we are having now, five years later, is how to not still be hurt. Not to get triggered by little things. A scene in a movie, the wrong phrase.

You guys are in the beginning of that and so there are going to be a TON of triggers. The smallest things are going to feel huge because they remind him of the trust that was broken. To rebuild it, is not easy and too many times I see people wanting to rebuild it with short cuts. "I promise I'm trust worthy now and the only way to prove it is for you to trust me!"

Does not work. What helped us was complete and absolute transparency. ABSOLUTE. If it made me uncomfortable to mention it, or I felt like it would be better to just not say anything then it was something I HAD TO share. Uncomfortable as it was, as embarrassing, even if it did exactly like I thought it would and made him upset, made him pull away, made him go off brooding and left me feeling like an idiot and abandoned as he went to deal with his own feelings over it.

There can be NO omissions, no "I didn't think it was a big deal so didn't mention it." None of that. tell him everything, even if it sucks, even if it's uncomfortable because it will get better! Once he knows that you will tell him everything!

The other thing I wanted to speak to is something I might get into trouble with. See, it's totally valid for you to feel like he's not fair to Si. Not saying he is or isn't. It's totally valid for you to be upset. Guess what? You kind of don't get to unload that on him. Sure from your POV it might be, "Hey she's been here! She's like another parent, you can't deny that!"

That is obviously not his. From his POV it seems that you two pushed him out of the family for years, making it you two and the kids and he felt abandoned, unwanted, unneeded. That is a feeling a lot of people in poly moving into it or mono partners feel and fear and to tell the truth, you kind of validated those fears. It's going to take a hell of a lot to soothe those and prove that you won't do it again.

Personally, something DH and I have discussed is that we have at times had people in our lives that were close to the family but in the end they were called aunts, uncles, and yes in one case a guncle. HOWEVER, the kids are ours. So we decide, between the two of us, how we are going to raise them. No one else. Sure we might talk to people we trust and care about, we might vent, we might take advice, and getting a break while they take over with the kids for a bit is great! However, we are exceptionally proud, in this day and age, that the kids know we are the parents. That while they have others that might be 'like a second mother/father', they know we are their parents. They know that we have their backs, that we are there to depend on, to ask questions, to support them. Why wouldn't your husband want that as well for your kids?

I am happy to have the kids friends over when there are holidays because they are too stressed at choosing whether to go to mom's, dad's, second dad's, step dad's, or grandma's place. Different things are important to different people. For you it might be important that the kids feel they have three parents. For him it might be important to know that you four, (you, him and the kids), are a strong base family and that other family can be built on that but the base is the base. I know it's meant a lot to me. I know others here dont' operate that way and that's great for thme. But what works for them doesn't work for us, and what works for you, three parents, doesn't seem to work for your husband. Especially when he feels it isn't possible. It hasn't been possible. It's been you two, and him sort of there. How horrible to be now told that he can be the father, but she still gets to be a co parent as well!

His rules may not seem fair right now and restrictive, transparency may seem like no privacy, but it's not forever. It's not fair, not saying it is, however, it's necessary. Like I said, it's been five years for us. But now, instead of him being able to read every email, every IM and hear every conversation, he got comfortable and then went to where he would leave as soon as I was speaking to DC. Both to give us privacy but also because he was testing his own waters. To be comfortable with it and know he can trust me again. It took time. Now it's at the point where he asks if I want privacy and even jokes with DC. But basically, I did the crime, I had to do the time, and NOT bitch about it. Very hard, but I will say worth it. I love where our marriage is and that we know there's always room for improvement and working at it.
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  #390  
Old 05-14-2013, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Vixtoria View Post

You guys are in the beginning of that and so there are going to be a TON of triggers. The smallest things are going to feel huge because they remind him of the trust that was broken. To rebuild it, is not easy and too many times I see people wanting to rebuild it with short cuts. "I promise I'm trust worthy now and the only way to prove it is for you to trust me!"
I am trying to avoid short cuts, but the temptation is present. A marriage or any relationship with no trust is more challenging than I ever expected. It is essential in the foundation, and without it, everything is just free falling.

Quote:
Does not work. What helped us was complete and absolute transparency. ABSOLUTE. If it made me uncomfortable to mention it, or I felt like it would be better to just not say anything then it was something I HAD TO share. Uncomfortable as it was, as embarrassing, even if it did exactly like I thought it would and made him upset, made him pull away, made him go off brooding and left me feeling like an idiot and abandoned as he went to deal with his own feelings over it.
I can definitely see where it will not work. I do not feel comfortable with transparency, so I tend to avoid it. I have to get to the point of feeling comfortable. I used to be open with him. Now, I have shut down because he has. He opens up to me and then goes off to process his feelings. I dislike feeling vulnerable, and that is how I was left feeling when I was opening up and telling him everything. I just felt like, "Oh well. He does not believe me, so does it really matter if I open or not?" It does matter. Price of admission.

Our counsellor kept reminding me that someone has to make the first move, and that even the smallest omissions will feel like a mountain versus a mole hill. She phrased it as taking 10 steps forward by doing the right thing and being 100% honest, but taking 9 back by electing to omit pertinent details that seem minor to me but major to him. That is exactly where we are. I consider certain things "no biggie," but to Matt, that is not quite right. I am trying to get into the mindset of being okay with baring my soul and not expecting him to do the same.

Quote:
There can be NO omissions, no "I didn't think it was a big deal so didn't mention it." None of that. tell him everything, even if it sucks, even if it's uncomfortable because it will get better! Once he knows that you will tell him everything!
I am the queen of doing this. Something along the lines of, "So what is the big deal exactly?" It usually does not end well after that. It is a big deal, and I have to accept that.

Quote:
The other thing I wanted to speak to is something I might get into trouble with. See, it's totally valid for you to feel like he's not fair to Si. Not saying he is or isn't. It's totally valid for you to be upset. Guess what? You kind of don't get to unload that on him. Sure from your POV it might be, "Hey she's been here! She's like another parent, you can't deny that!"

That is obviously not his. From his POV it seems that you two pushed him out of the family for years, making it you two and the kids and he felt abandoned, unwanted, unneeded. That is a feeling a lot of people in poly moving into it or mono partners feel and fear and to tell the truth, you kind of validated those fears. It's going to take a hell of a lot to soothe those and prove that you won't do it again.
It is not his POV at all. He is okay with her being in their lives but as nothing more than a family friend or someone who loves them. He wants any and all decisions regarding them to be made by the two of us. Admittedly, my POV is a little jaded and biased. She has been around, and my feelings for her probably are clouding my perception. We are not even going to get into how he feels about us possibly getting back together. That deserves a post of its own.

I wish I could argue with how he was feeling, but truth of the matter is, it is quite true. We went behind his back, changed plans, and left him out of the loop. When he was off on the weekends or whenever, he had to run his plans by her to make sure she did not have anything planned. I argued with him to the point of him becoming exhausted and just relenting due to being tired of fighting. He was vocal the entire time about how he felt. I downplayed his concerns and feelings. Other times, I just did not want to hear it because he was not cooperating with my perfect little vision and my plans. I did validate some of the fears that mono partners likely have. I am trying to soothe it, fix this, and prove that it will never happen again. I truly am sorry for how I treated him. If I was him, I would have left.

Matt's never had a problem accepting advice from our parents, siblings, and peers. He wants to do like most people and take every view and opinion into consideration, but the final say should be between us and no one else. He does want the family base to be the core and to be strong. I know it is unfair to almost force him into having to co-parent. It is almost like asking and answering a question for a person. The choice was already removed before the question was even presented.

I know how I would feel in his position. I would be angry and seething mad. That would like us divorcing and him telling me, "Oh, you will always be their mum, but you must share parenting responsibilities with my new spouse and the children are calling her mum, too. You just have to accept her as a co-parent because she is here." Realistically, I would blow a fuse. I do not know why there is this double standard. I can get mad, but apparently, I do not think he is allowed to.

Quote:
His rules may not seem fair right now and restrictive, transparency may seem like no privacy, but it's not forever. It's not fair, not saying it is, however, it's necessary. Like I said, it's been five years for us. But now, instead of him being able to read every email, every IM and hear every conversation, he got comfortable and then went to where he would leave as soon as I was speaking to DC. Both to give us privacy but also because he was testing his own waters. To be comfortable with it and know he can trust me again. It took time. Now it's at the point where he asks if I want privacy and even jokes with DC. But basically, I did the crime, I had to do the time, and NOT bitch about it. Very hard, but I will say worth it. I love where our marriage is and that we know there's always room for improvement and working at it.
I agree that they are necessary. I do not necessarily have a problem with his restrictions. Considering the circumstances, they could be much worse. He is being rather lenient, and he gives me the chance to bail myself out all the time. I just choose to do other things. It is like rebelling against him, but it ends up backfiring on me. I know it is not forever, and it is hard. Time and consistency are important, and the sooner I accept that, the easier things will be. It is hard not to bitch, though. I did the crime, so I must serve the time.

Thank you for this. It was what I needed to read.
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