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  #71  
Old 12-23-2010, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by NeonKaos View Post
Translation: Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Or, "All men are pigs".
Not true. If the man is interested in MORE than just a casual fuck, he will not mind waiting. He will enjoy going out on dates and not have any expectations of sex at the end of them or while on them.

And I believe I said MOST men are pigs. Not all.
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  #72  
Old 12-23-2010, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I know what you mean about piggish men. I have a zero tolerance for them. I wish men would not perpetuate the stereo type of piggish men get the girl cause it just isn't true. They might get some pussy and they might get some cock, but they don't get quality and the joy that comes from a connection... sure it is rare, but is available and when a person is engaged in piggish behaviour they miss the doors that open completely.

Finding numb connections with others means that is all that is drawn to you. I fully believe that have experienced that. Have you seen my post on whole hearted people in my blog? it talks more of this idea. to have joy we must be willing to engage, rather than be numb.

Mindfulagony, please don't settle. You are worth more than that and seem to want more than a shallow, surface, looking good from the outside connections and depth.
Don't worry RP, I'm not giving up. I'm not so sure about the notion that pig'ishness isn't successful though. It is far too successful at any rate.

I'll stick to just being me. Whatever the appropriate label for that happens to be, I don't know. I'm sure it will bring fulfilling relationships if not flocks of interest.
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  #73  
Old 12-23-2010, 07:59 AM
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Just caught up with this thread again. I feel the need to separate several different notions that are being comingled:
(1) the desire for sex early in a relationship (for arguments sake let's say that's about an hour into the first date)
(2) the desire for a primarily sexual relationship
(3) the willingness to feign interest in an emotional relationship to gain sexual access

From the OP first post, I thought the primary problem was of nature of (3) above. Which is a problem and, in my view, a fairly widespread one. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I believe it's widespread (note: I don't mean ALL or EVERY when I say widespread) because of a male-female dynamic. The stereotypes that we seem all too willing to play out: male as sexual aggressor and female as reluctant user of sex as bargaining chip for love, affection and whatever else (e.g., security, wealth, fame). Earlier someone else mentioned this same dymanic (Ariakas?) with less negative spin on it than my own.

This is the stuff of fairytales that have pissed me off since I was a wee lad. But, it is a powerful narrative that just gums up the works in so many unproductive ways. My - tentative - hypothesis is that this narrative underlies why strategy (3) is so widely used and its use generally accepted by men and women alike.

I see no particular problem with numbers (1) and (2) if they are up front and mutually agreed upon approaches to a particular relationship. Pig'ish labels need not apply.

I thought TL was primarily railing against situation (3). If he is, I would have to agree that there's far too many men who employ that strategy for one silly reason or another.

Agree with other comments that there's likely something about how they're approaching their search that seems to be disproportionately drawing the wrong kind of attention their direction.
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Last edited by MindfulAgony; 12-23-2010 at 08:02 AM.
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  #74  
Old 12-23-2010, 09:13 AM
preciselove preciselove is offline
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I don't really see the interest in casual sex so I'm not sure why men would feign interest just to stick their penis in a vagina. Seems like a little too much work to me?

I can understand puppy love or NRE but what do men get out of random casual sex? They might as well be sticking it in a fleshlight or something.
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  #75  
Old 12-23-2010, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MindfulAgony View Post
Just caught up with this thread again. I feel the need to separate several different notions that are being comingled:
(1) the desire for sex early in a relationship (for arguments sake let's say that's about an hour into the first date)
(2) the desire for a primarily sexual relationship
(3) the willingness to feign interest in an emotional relationship to gain sexual access

From the OP first post, I thought the primary problem was of nature of (3) above. Which is a problem and, in my view, a fairly widespread one. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I believe it's widespread (note: I don't mean ALL or EVERY when I say widespread) because of a male-female dynamic. The stereotypes that we seem all too willing to play out: male as sexual aggressor and female as reluctant user of sex as bargaining chip for love, affection and whatever else (e.g., security, wealth, fame). Earlier someone else mentioned this same dymanic (Ariakas?) with less negative spin on it than my own.

This is the stuff of fairytales that have pissed me off since I was a wee lad. But, it is a powerful narrative that just gums up the works in so many unproductive ways. My - tentative - hypothesis is that this narrative underlies why strategy (3) is so widely used and its use generally accepted by men and women alike.

I see no particular problem with numbers (1) and (2) if they are up front and mutually agreed upon approaches to a particular relationship. Pig'ish labels need not apply.

I thought TL was primarily railing against situation (3). If he is, I would have to agree that there's far too many men who employ that strategy for one silly reason or another.

Agree with other comments that there's likely something about how they're approaching their search that seems to be disproportionately drawing the wrong kind of attention their direction.
DING DING DING!!!!!!!!!! #3 is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. TY
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  #76  
Old 12-23-2010, 01:35 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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i guess all the "good" ones must be gay and/or married.
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  #77  
Old 12-23-2010, 03:37 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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I find it weird that anyone could be "jealous" and say pig-men are the one who get what they want. If you're not a pig, then what they want (and get) isn't something you would want anyway! It's sex without a connection and hurting other people. They might not care, but you probably would. Bottom line is, it's not for you, that's why you're not trying to get it.

It sounds to me like saying it's unfair that people who steal stuff get what they want. If you're not a thief, you wouldn't want what they get: stolen stuff. And you'd get a guilty conscience even if they don't.

Sure, it's easy to steal or to manipulate people, but the reason we don't do it is that there is nothing in it for us. I don't understand being jealous of that, I certainly wouldn't want to be in their shoes. They're not the ones who get the strong connection and everything you can get from having a life partner. And the "good guys", that's what they want, right? So no, the pigs don't get it any more than you do, they get something else that you're not interested in.
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  #78  
Old 12-23-2010, 04:49 PM
Jade Jade is offline
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"If a man is open to more than a casual fuck, he will not mind waiting." True. And suppose he gets to the sex (because he didn't mind waiting), and comes to realize "we're not compatible." What does it take for him to not be a pig at that point? How long did it take you to find a compatible girlfriend in high school? How long did it take your wife to find a compatible boyfriend? How many things looked promising, but didn't last? Relationship fizzles are far more common than successes. You shop in a market filled with hope, but no satisfaction is guaranteed.
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  #79  
Old 12-23-2010, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonberry View Post
I find it weird that anyone could be "jealous" and say pig-men are the one who get what they want. If you're not a pig, then what they want (and get) isn't something you would want anyway! It's sex without a connection and hurting other people. They might not care, but you probably would. Bottom line is, it's not for you, that's why you're not trying to get it.

It sounds to me like saying it's unfair that people who steal stuff get what they want. If you're not a thief, you wouldn't want what they get: stolen stuff. And you'd get a guilty conscience even if they don't.

Sure, it's easy to steal or to manipulate people, but the reason we don't do it is that there is nothing in it for us. I don't understand being jealous of that, I certainly wouldn't want to be in their shoes. They're not the ones who get the strong connection and everything you can get from having a life partner. And the "good guys", that's what they want, right? So no, the pigs don't get it any more than you do, they get something else that you're not interested in.
Jealousy is not exactly the right word here. Let me extend your analogy to try to better communicate what I mean. Thievery doesn't make me jealous, it pisses me off. Or more precisely, I get frustrated with people who choose to steal when what they want can usually be obtained through patience and hardwork (and a little luck too). My frustration not only arises when they steal my stuff but when they steal other too. Theft erodes trust. I'm also angry when they're selfish, uncaring acts hurt other people.

The same thing applies to pig'ish men. It is upsetting not because I want what they get. It is upsetting because it is disingenous and erodes trust. It is upsetting because it is hurtful.

Because of that hurt, some women put up a security fence (he says, hopefuly not taking the analogy a bridge too far). That (emotional) fence then creates a barrier to genuine connection when someone like me rolls around the corner. If TL's words are a reflection of the intensity and tone of his wife's feelings, I would venture to guess that her defenses are pretty well built at this point.
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Last edited by MindfulAgony; 12-23-2010 at 05:34 PM.
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  #80  
Old 12-23-2010, 06:48 PM
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After 40 years of dating I have come to know that it is best to make men wait, regardless of pigishness or not. Now that I know what I am made of in the casual sex arena, I would have no problems waiting until I am sure they are worth a relationship or not. I would hope they would do the same with me. I wouldn't want them to be involved with me if they are not a good match. Now that I have experienced what waiting creates in terms of really seeing what a person is like beyond lust I am content with what I have discovered. Most of the time they are not a good fit for me and I am glad I didn't go there. There is often something that doesn't fit with my values really. I am finding that this whole waiting thing takes the edge of it all for me. I don't have anything but enjoyment of moments with people rather than the dance of romance/sex that I used to have... like birds in a dance to mate. I am glad to be out of that thing whereby the male bird prances around like a testosterone idiot, while I decide if they are fuckable... only to find out that I was just a casual fuck more often than not... of course, as you all know if you have been following my life story that is, I don't have a casual sex bone in my body it seems, so I am talking from that place of course... if I did, I am thinking it would be a different story. That dance might be more interesting and cause more pigish behaviour from men. I dunno...I just have not ever been interested in involving myself really. I just walk away thinking of it as a complement and don't find out how it would end if I actually gave the man the time of day. Is that mean? I mean, I'm sure at some level it hurts their feelings as that is way a lot of men have been trained to pursue women...women have taught them that because they accept it... am I in someway damaging their ego by not engaging them? Should I stop and explain to them why I am about to walk away from them? What is a woman's responsibility here?

mindful,,, glad you are keeping it real by being you ..that is attractive to me. ..... if men can be pigish though... what if that is being themselves though?
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