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  #151  
Old 12-24-2010, 08:31 AM
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redpepper redpepper is offline
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Thank you sage. This is what I was wondering and waiting for someone to notice huge points about RG when I read the last days posts.

You are not acting like a mono RG. Or at least trying something different out that isn't monogamy.
So, let me get this straight. Wife is sharing stuff that you reckon you *own* yet you are too and that is okay? Its okay for you to meet up with Bree, fuck her brains out, finding you care for her and call it by no describing words, but you object to your wife doing the same thing and calling it poly? Hmmmm? Have I got this right?

If I have I'm sorry I am struggling to have any patience with that. I'm sorry you are hurt, but you seem hypocritical. Not to mention your fuck fest seems a tad like you were getting even. Might be wrong, please correct me if I am, but it seemed a bit fast to be rushing into sex when your relationship with your wife was not stable. Something in the way you announced you fucked her made me think you were saying "there, I did it... Okay?! Take that!" Sex complicates emotions. It does for a lot of people anyways. Therefore diving into it too early can fuck with your head.

I suggest you slow down, take a breath, adjust your thinking you own your wife or her freedom as that is her right to have and start appreciating what you've got instead.

She isn't going anywhere. You have all the things you love around you and a new woman that needs some time to adjust to this situation. Take it slow, relax, do some work on what you *think* because you were taught it from our monogamous culture and see if you come up witn the same statements you made a few posts back. If you do, then move on. If not then you have a place to start.

That's what I reckon anyway.
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  #152  
Old 12-24-2010, 06:36 PM
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It's Christmas here now, beautiful and sunny and warm. My warmest wishes to all of you freezing your butts off over the other side of the world :-) xx

I have more patience with RG. He's hurting and I know the desire to make the hurt go away by clutching onto whatever is available. Then when that doesn't help there is a strong need to have everything return to the perceived safety of monogamy.

RG I think the fact that Bree is in a Seminary does make a huge difference. I know some people with strong religious beliefs can make peace with polyamory but it's a much bigger thing. :
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  #153  
Old 12-24-2010, 07:20 PM
ThatRomanticGeek ThatRomanticGeek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
You are not acting like a mono RG. Or at least trying something different out that isn't monogamy.
So, let me get this straight. Wife is sharing stuff that you reckon you *own* yet you are too and that is okay? Its okay for you to meet up with Bree, fuck her brains out, finding you care for her and call it by no describing words, but you object to your wife doing the same thing and calling it poly? Hmmmm? Have I got this right?
... No. Not really. You know what I get from Bree? The feeling of actually being wanted. The feeling of being thought of as good company. Feeling important. I don't get that from the wife. I get comparisons ("my BF holds my hand! He listens to my problems! He does xyz, ad nauseum..."). I get told that all I want from her is sex... Which, while my libido outpaces hers considerably, isn't true. But I *do* get irritated and and lonely when we haven't had sex all week (or maybe we have, but only because she felt obligated to) and yet she's out the the door to spend the night with her boyfriend. To run all over town doing things that *we* haven't done in years because she refuses to call a babysitting agency ("But I don't know those people! I can't trust them with my kids!" What utter bullshit.) And then, yes, to have sex with this guy. Who can always do no wrong.

Is it jealousy? Yep. It sure is. I embrace that. I don't want two loves. I want one. And I want one that in turn wants one. Hypocritical? Nope. Bree lives 1000 miles away. I've seen her all of twice. And while I do have very strong feelings for her, she apparently feels like she can't reciprocate. I don't fully understand why, but does it matter? On the one side, I've got a woman that can't or won't love me like I want to be loved, and on the other, I've got a woman who... I don't know what. We had a great weekend together, but any talk of meeting again gets shut down. Yet, she was texting that she missed me before I was even home.

I find myself pissed off at both of them. Michelle for not being honest with herself and with me about who she was years ago, when it didn't matter as much. Now I've got three other lives that depend on me and my choices. Now I've wasted my twenties. I'm pissed at her for approaching this open marriage thing under the guise of "if it gets uncomfortable, we'll stop" and when I felt things were happening too fast with her current boyfriend without enough regard to my own emotions, I was told "this is who I am, deal with it."
Nice to see where I rate.

I'm pissed at Bree for not having the balls to own up to her feelings. In talking with her about our previous falling out, she said that it was because the closer she felt to me, the further she felt from God. I've no doubt she feels some of that again... But I don't see why God would punish her for following her heart. She knows she could have my whole heart, if she'd just accept it. Instead, I'm kept at arm's length. I'm her closest friend, no doubt... I know her better than probably anybody. But there's still this... barrier. She won't let me all the way in. That's part of why she's declared that she just wants to be "us" without applying labels to it. I thought it was because I was married, but she knows... KNOWS that I don't want this open marriage. She knows I want to be with her. So why does she erect this wall?

And... I'm pissed at myself. For not being okay with Michelle and her boyfriend... but at the same time, I'm pissed at myself for WANTING to be okay. For feeling like a doormat for Michelle and Bree. For being scared to do what I think needs to be done - Leaving. For not wanting to leave. For agreeing to try open marriage in the first place. For not being able to make Bree go away and just swallow my pain at that and at how Michelle makes me feel and just be strong for my kids. For fighting with Michelle. For the moments when I hate Michelle. I hate myself for marrying so young. I hate myself for even considering any of this and what it means to the kids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I suggest you slow down, take a breath, adjust your thinking you own your wife or her freedom as that is her right to have and start appreciating what you've got instead.
I resent the notion that the desire for mutual monogamy has anything to do with ownership. And I'm not a hypocrite: I'd enter into a mutually monogamous relationship with Bree in a heartbeat. If I could. But I can't. Instead, I'm stuck with a polyamorous wife who doesn't appear to have any idea what I'm feeling or why. "I'd let you do whatever you wanted, why can't I have the same courtesy," she says. That's missing the point. But she doesn't want what I want, so maybe it's stupid and pointless that I'm still around. Other than these little things called the kids. And this life that we've spent over ten years building.

I want the life I had a year ago back... But it's gone, and I don't know what to do about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
She isn't going anywhere. You have all the things you love around you and a new woman that needs some time to adjust to this situation.
Michelle isn't going anywhere, but I can't say the same for Bree. She won't adjust. We'll go on like this for a few years. She'll see me occasionally when she feels strong enough. Then she'll feel guilty for a few months. Wash, rinse, repeat. Then she'll go to get her second masters degree abroad in a few years, and that'll be that. She'll get married. And she'll be out of my life in that capacity for good.

And Michelle is putting incredible pressure on me to "make a decision." She can't live with my indecision she says. She needs resolution. So... whatever that means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Take it slow, relax, do some work on what you *think* because you were taught it from our monogamous culture and see if you come up witn the same statements you made a few posts back. If you do, then move on. If not then you have a place to start.

That's what I reckon anyway.
I'm trying. Dear God, how I'm trying.
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  #154  
Old 12-24-2010, 11:53 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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Right now it seems to me you're staying with your wife because you don't want to be alone. That doesn't sound that good to me. Doesn't sound very respectful of her either that you'd leave her in a heartbeat to run away with Bree but want to hold on to her if she's the only thing you have.

I think it might be best for you to just break things off even if it means being alone afterwards. Then you can rebuild yourself, decide what exactly you want, and work from there.
Or you could decide to stay, but then you'd have to be really into it. And I don't think you are. It doesn't sound like it's working out for you. I realise I could be very wrong but that's the way it looks to me right now.

I wish you the best, but I think you really need to figure things out for yourself here. And make decisions you can control. You can't control other people, you can only control yourself. Right now you're resenting these women for trying to do what they feel is best for themselves, but you need to start doing the same too, in my opinion.
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  #155  
Old 12-25-2010, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatRomanticGeek View Post
... No. Not really. You know what I get from Bree? The feeling of actually being wanted. The feeling of being thought of as good company. Feeling important. I don't get that from the wife. I get comparisons ("my BF holds my hand! He listens to my problems! He does xyz, ad nauseum..."). I get told that all I want from her is sex... Which, while my libido outpaces hers considerably, isn't true. But I *do* get irritated and and lonely when we haven't had sex all week (or maybe we have, but only because she felt obligated to) and yet she's out the the door to spend the night with this guy. Who can always do no wrong.
This sounds like poor communication skills. Using statements that lay blame and say "you" did something is not communicating well. Have you tried learning some new ways to communicate? We use techniques that have really helped. We have studied communication for years ("Non-violent communication" or "compassionate communication") and have some really good skills that make us open up, feel safe and that really help get our feelings and needs across. Perhaps some therapy around this would help.

I hear in what you are saying that she demands from you and you demand from her. I want this and I want that. I also hear that you are angry because neither woman is doing what you want... valid, but not going to get you very far. Until you talk about your feelings in safety to them I doubt you will end up being with either of them. Until they have a safe space to talk about theirs too I doubt they will want to stay with you either... that kind of thing doesn't seem to resolve and even if you go on to another woman and communicate the same way, it will be the same thing... in my opinion. Communication skills are learned, we don't get them handed to us at birth. One has to learn to empathize, advocate for our needs to be met and to really listen and ask questions in such a way that is respectful. It's hard work, but so much more is solvable.

I really don't think you need to leave personally, I think this is still salvagable. I think that you are stuck and it hurts and you want out, but with a more effort I think you could turn it around. I would suggest doing some conflict resolution stuff. Talk about what you see happening around you without emotions about it, then talk about how you feel about it, without using "you" statements (it might be an idea to go over in your head what you are going to say on that one as its easy to fall into blame talk)... talk about your needs from the situation, stuff like "I need to feel appreciated, I need to be touched, I need some words that indicate that I am loved"... then ask for those needs to be met and start strategizing about how that might happen.

Then ask her what she thinks from where she sits and when either of you start getting into the blame thing, stop and start again. Realize that you both do it and remind each other... ask what the other means in terms of what they feel, rather than what you have done wrong. It's hard work to do this and you both have to want to, so be patient. There is more info on communication in the "communication workshop" sticky.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatRomanticGeek View Post
I resent the notion that the desire for mutual monogamy has anything to do with ownership. And I'm not a hypocrite: I'd enter into a mutually monogamous relationship with Bree in a heartbeat. If I could. But I can't. Instead, I'm stuck with a polyamorous wife who doesn't appear to have any idea what I'm feeling or why. "I'd let you do whatever you wanted, why can't I have the same courtesy," she says. That's missing the point. But she doesn't want what I want, so maybe it's stupid and pointless that I'm still around. Other than these little things called the kids. And this life that we've spent over ten years building.
I'm confused. You want monogamy with your wife and your girlfriend? What do you want? I don't get it, so maybe that is why others don't too. You seem to want to be monogamous but will be poly to suit you because it would be with your girlfriend... if she decides she wants you that is in which case you will mono? If not that then you are not poly, you are back to mono...? please help me understand?

To me poly means that you can and do love more than one person. Sounds like you are capable of that and there for are a poly person... If you aren't then really you are a mono guy using Bree to move on from your wife no? and now you seem angry with her for not accepting you and removing you from your situation... how is that fair for her? I wouldn't be interested either. Why would I want to deal with someone elses crap? even if I loved them.

If this were me I would forget the girlfriend, who seems to be uninterested and confused at the moment anyways and salvage my marriage. Do the work necessary to get things back in some kind of order and ask your wife to rise to the occasion to do the same. Put other lovers on hold until things are on the way to being sorted. Poly relationship dynamics such as yours are not that solid if the foundation is cracking. Your foundation, your primary relationship with your wife, is cracking... take the time to fix it. Go to therapy and put the work in to learn some new skills and get on your feet again... thats what I would do anyways.
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  #156  
Old 12-27-2010, 02:21 AM
vodkafan vodkafan is offline
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Things were going so well before but I have made a bit of a hash of things at Christmas. I have hurt OHb's feelings and my wife and I ended up having to have a talk about things on Christmas night of all times after the kids were in bed.
Not a total disaster we are muddling through. It all came down to her not being able to be in two places at once so everything has been a compromise. I have to admit that OHb has acted the bigger man the last couple of days, but on the other hand he doesn't have six kids around at his place to complicate matters. I don't feel I have seen my wife at all this Christmas; when she was here it was as if her mind was elsewhere and she couldn't wait to go again.
The whole process is going to repeat next week end at New Years.
I would rather just get it over with and get back to our normal routine.
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  #157  
Old 12-27-2010, 04:52 AM
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Hi Vodkafan

I thought it was always your agreement that your wife spend christmas eve and christmas day with you and boxing day with the other guy? So I don't really see how he has been the bigger man? After-all as you say when she's with you she's shared with you and all the kids; when she's with him there's just the two of them. You are one of my big mono heros the way you cope with it all.

If I had the feeling that Z was "elsewhere" when he was supposed to be with me sharing a very special time I would be furious. Although from her point of view I can understand that she was probably missing him especially if he was alone. Maybe it's time to think about sharing your space and would be better next year if he came to you?

I hope you will get some one on one time with your wife these holidays because that time is just so vital and precious for a relationship.

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  #158  
Old 12-27-2010, 06:24 AM
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It really does seem time to bring two households together no? Holidays really do show that out don't they? Eventually life can't help bring people together. That's what family is all about really. It seems we are programmed to come together. It seems to be human nature.

Sorry, how was he the better man here? It seems you were to me. No doubt your wife was concerned and missing him, but it has been her choice to divide her time no? Part of that is foreseeing how holidays will go. I find it hard to be present when Mono is not around; I can empathize. That is one of the reasons I advocated for our all coming together and being closer. Its changed things and it is nice he is close but not living in the same place so we can still be ourselves together when we can, but on holidays we are all one and it flows well.

Good luck. More holidays to come.
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  #159  
Old 12-27-2010, 06:33 AM
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I suppose it's time to admit to myself that I'm struggling a bit again. Z has left for Australia and I'm here for at least another few weeks finishing off renovations and doing all the packing up, selling off etc.

Of course I'm missing him but there is an underlying unsettledness. There are probably many reasons for this that are not poly related but I think there is a definite poly component which I'm finding really hard to put into words (unusual for me).

It's to do with the level of commitment in a mono/poly relationship. If we were in a good mono relationship I think I would be a lot more secure in it somehow. He's told me over and over that I am his life partner, so much so that I have had to let it go with him. There's literally nothing more he can say or do. So why am I feeling like this?

He has really had to take this job for the sake of his career and the financial support of his kids. I will be worse off financially because I will be living off capital and the exchange rate isn't favourable. Because he'll have a good job he's going to make up the difference and maybe that's the problem. Maybe I feel insecure accepting financial help from him and further meshing our financial life when someone could come along and want more of him than I feel comfortable with.

We've always said we'd talk about anything like that happening and negotiate but maybe I feel that by living, at least initially, with his financial help, I would have less power somehow.

I'm working through this as I write it. I think it comes down to convenience and financial loss. I already took a big financial hit when I walked away from my marriage and I can't really afford another at my stage in life. I know I feel less secure about this side of things because Z is poly.

Poly/mono relationships seem to work well in married situations when there are children and more reason to keep them working. They work well in scenarios when neither party is losing or gaining or giving more than the other. That was what ours was. I think my insecurity boils down to the fact that we will be moving into a situation where he is in a stronger practical situation than me and that scares me.

And yes I know I have hardly mentioned "love" in all this. It goes without saying that if I didn't love this guy to bits I wouldn't even be considering the move. I suppose it's a case of "feel the fear and do it anyway" but if anyone out there can actually make sense of this babble and add anything constructive I would be grateful.
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  #160  
Old 12-27-2010, 08:46 AM
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Sorry sage I have to rush off out but I think your statement made a lot of sense.You nailed your fears down well. It looks like you don't have too much to worry about though. I would choose to see it that by you becoming more financially dependent on z he is fulfilling his traditional male role and is actually showing his commitment to you in a practical way. May write more later as there are other things to consider in this situation. Chin up
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