Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > Poly Relationships Corner

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 02-11-2013, 11:17 PM
SchrodingersCat's Avatar
SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 2,130
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManofDiscovery View Post
To call a man narrow minded because his sexual orientation is for somebody who does not have a cock is frankly ridiculous. I struggle to believe a person would actually try and put that forward as a credible argument.
Kindly re-read my quote. I said "narrow view of gender and sexuality." You have indicated that your view of gender is that it equals sexuality. A person born with a penis is, always has been, and always will be a man. "He" can "call himself a woman" but to you, that "doesn't make it true."

Funny how you jumped that to narrow-minded. I mean, I'm not going to deny that I do think you're narrow minded. Not because of your sexual orientation, I'm extremely tolerant of any sexual orientation. There's absolutely nothing wrong with only being attracted to cis-gendered women. I would never try to claim otherwise.

No, sir. You are narrow-minded because when people make points that don't support your ignorant beliefs, you go in the corner and pout rather than allowing yourself to be educated. You end discussions on the basis that it's become too difficult to defend your position, which is basically because your position is prejudiced and irrational.
__________________
Gralson: my husband (works out of town).
Auto: my girlfriend (lives with her husband Zoffee).

The most dangerous phrase in the English language is "we've always done it this way."
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 02-11-2013, 11:28 PM
ManofDiscovery ManofDiscovery is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: NW England
Posts: 117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
No, sir. You are narrow-minded because when people make points that don't support your ignorant beliefs, you go in the corner and pout rather than allowing yourself to be educated. You end discussions on the basis that it's become too difficult to defend your position, which is basically because your position is prejudiced and irrational.
Sigh. You're lucky I'm a cat person.

I don't see why it's ignorant if a person says 'I'm expecting to meet a woman' if they are informed if their potential date does in fact, own a cock. Just because the trans woman sees herself as no different to any other woman does not mean that the man will. If that makes him ignorant and narrow minded then too bad.

Not narrow minded. Just common courtesy.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 02-11-2013, 11:37 PM
SchrodingersCat's Avatar
SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 2,130
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManofDiscovery View Post
The guy is expecting to be meeting a woman. Whatever your view on whether a trans woman is the same as a woman...
I acknowledge that a cis-woman is different from a trans-woman. If you're not going to use the proper terminology, then we cannot have a conversation.

Quote:
he is expecting a woman, not a trans woman.

Hence the responsibility is on the trans woman to inform him of this. He might be ok with it, he might not.
So to paraphrase, I am responsible for any assumptions a man might have about women, and it is my responsibility to clear those up before I agree to date him? I would argue that each person is responsible for their own prejudices and assumptions. It doesn't matter one iota if those assumptions are widely held and common. They're assumptions nonetheless. And we all know what happens when you [make an]ASS[out of]U[and]ME.

I also want to point out that while I can understand why you'd be insulted by my tone and language, I didn't actually directly insult you or call you a name. I merely indicated I find conversations with door knobs to be more rewarding than this discussion.

You've used terminology that is insulting, and you don't seem to care, because you have your preconceived notions and you're not even willing to consider that they might be prejudiced and hurtful. Most decent people, upon being told that a certain phrase hurtful, would apologize for being rude and then use the proper term when it's provided. You just blast through all that and keep spewing the same ignorant garbage. So if you want people to treat you with dignity and respect, it's a good idea to start doing it yourself.
__________________
Gralson: my husband (works out of town).
Auto: my girlfriend (lives with her husband Zoffee).

The most dangerous phrase in the English language is "we've always done it this way."
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 02-11-2013, 11:41 PM
ManofDiscovery ManofDiscovery is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: NW England
Posts: 117
Default

In the real world outside the forum, the term 'woman' is not usually considered offensive.

Just like if a man talks about dating a woman, it is assumed he is talking about a cis-woman and not a trans-woman.

These are fair assumptions to make, because they are how the majority of people live their lives. Most men want a cis and not a trans woman.

Hence the reason I said the onus is on the trans.

We may just have to agree to disagree on this one, puss. Sorry- cis-puss.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 02-11-2013, 11:48 PM
SchrodingersCat's Avatar
SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 2,130
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManofDiscovery View Post
Sigh. You're lucky I'm a cat person.

I don't see why it's ignorant if a person says 'I'm expecting to meet a woman' if they are informed if their potential date does in fact, own a cock. Just because the trans woman sees herself as no different to any other woman does not mean that the man will. If that makes him ignorant and narrow minded then too bad.

Not narrow minded. Just common courtesy.
No one said that a trans* woman sees herself as no different from any other woman. Clearly you do not have any trans* friends, or you would have at least the slightest inkling of the day to day struggle of being born into a body that doesn't fit your gender identification.

Can you even begin to imagine what that would feel like? Imagine waking up tomorrow, your penis gone, and a vagina in its place and breasts on your chest where you used to have carefully sculpted pecs. Ok, get over the perverted first few hours of playing with your tits and cunt, and then imagine waking up like that every day for the rest of your life.

No, never mind. That doesn't even BEGIN to cover it. Imagine that when you're a little boy, your mom dresses you up in pink frocks, takes away all your GI Joes and Tonka trucks, and give you a bunch of dumb Barbie dolls and tea cups. When you friends are out playing street hockey, she doesn't let you go join in because you might get dirt on your skirt.

And then just to wrap it all up in a pretty pink bow, you grow up and start being attracted to other girls. You ask them out. But when they find out what's going on under your blue jeans (because you've finally gotten old enough that your mom can't make you wear dresses anymore), they give you a repulsed look and never speak to you again. And this happens again. And again. And again.

You're so incredibly lucky to have been born into the right body for your gender. Stop being so fucking self-entitled for one second, and just try to imagine what these people are going through. Is it really so much for you to make the small concession of letting them feel accepted at least for that first date, before you run for the hills screaming?
__________________
Gralson: my husband (works out of town).
Auto: my girlfriend (lives with her husband Zoffee).

The most dangerous phrase in the English language is "we've always done it this way."
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 02-12-2013, 12:06 AM
ktpoet's Avatar
ktpoet ktpoet is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central PA
Posts: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
"should" being the operative word. Unfortunately, the queer so-called-community is sometimes the most guilty of rejecting trans* people. It's stupid and it needs to change.
Yeah. That's a good point, and very unfortunate. I was thinking more along the lines of the pansexual and gender-variant parts of the queer community, not necessarily the cis-gendered LGB parts.


To answer the original poster's question: All you can really do is be there for her. Make sure she knows that you care about her and that she's beautiful.


As far as when one should divulge such information, I really think it's just personal preference. When should a person divulge any sort of medical condition, past or present? For instance, I try to be very open about my anxiety before the first date (mostly to explain why I look so ridiculously nervous), but I'm not going to tell about my hoarding tendencies until I know I really like the person and want to continue seeing them. And there are some things that I may not tell a partner at all until I'm very comfortable or I feel it's necessary. It's important for the person with the "secret" to feel safe. They're the one that has something to lose. They're the one facing rejection, ridicule, and possible danger.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 02-12-2013, 12:17 AM
ManofDiscovery ManofDiscovery is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: NW England
Posts: 117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
You're so incredibly lucky to have been born into the right body for your gender. Stop being so fucking self-entitled for one second, and just try to imagine what these people are going through. Is it really so much for you to make the small concession of letting them feel accepted at least for that first date, before you run for the hills screaming?
What was it you said about assumptions, cis-puss? I have a number of trans friends, and this is an issue we all agree on. Some of them have come to this conclusion because of having had problems after not being upfront in the past.

So I should go on the date with the trans girl, pretend I'm happy with it in order to make her feel accepted...and then ignore her?

The rejection has to come at some point. Surely it's better to come before she's wasted any of her time investing in what is ultimately going to be fruitless date, romantically at least?

What if she actually liked me (I know that's hard for you to imagine right now, but surprisingly it does happen) and I led her on in order for her to feel accepted? She's going to feel worse about that then she would have find upfront.

If I'm going on a date with someone advertising themselves as a cis-woman (see how I'm using the proper term, see I do pay attention)...that's what I expect to meet. I'm not operating some charity service where I spend my evenings boosting the self esteem of fragile egos. I offer a great listening ear - but don't make me feel like I've been the victim of some bait and switch manoeuvre.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 02-12-2013, 02:08 AM
Josie Josie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 70
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManofDiscovery View Post
What if she actually liked me (I know that's hard for you to imagine right now, but surprisingly it does happen) and I led her on in order for her to feel accepted? She's going to feel worse about that then she would have find upfront.
Now this is your most ridiculous point yet.

So, you go on a date, you find out something that makes the two of you incompatible, despite the fact that your date likes you. Then what? Are you suggesting you should then stop talking to them immediately? Stop being friendly and enjoying a nice evening? Because you're incompatible romantically?

I've been on a number of dates where we have both been cis-gendered, often I've found something that is a deal-breaker for me. I've then continued the date (possibly having mentioned the fact that I couldn't be romantically involved with them the moment I realised it - depending on intuition and context), I've laughed, I've had a good time and perhaps even continued to be their good friend. This has happened with the last two people I went on 1st dates with.

I think that's what has really been bothering me about this thread. The idea that there has to be some intense romantic intent on 1st dates.
I don't know about you, but often, I barely know a person on a first date! They seem nice, I go along. I could end up romantically interested, we could end up being friends, it could just be one of those enjoyable nights out with someone where you don't necessarily ever meet up again. It could be a massive bore.

I don't see how continuing a date to it's logical conclusion (i.e. end of dinner, etc) and being friendly and talking and doing most of what you were doing before finding out the deal-breaker (minus overt flirting of course), is leading someone on. In all romantic situations I like to think that I mean more to someone than sex, that if they weren't attracted to me, they'd still like me.

I don't see why you'd have to react any differently towards a person you're on a date with that tells you they're transgendered than you would with any other deal-breaker.

It was a nice date, you liked them, you find out you're incompatible with them or they are with you - in my experience, this is most 1st dates!

And when it comes down to it, it's a bloody first date! I think, unless you've known the person for a while and have been getting your hopes up over time, that anyone feeling hugely hurt and 'led on' on a first date with someone who then reveals they're transgendered needs to get a grip on themselves. How serious can you get about a person on a first date? And if the answer is very: you probably need to deal with that, most first dates don't work out and you can't afford to let yourself get too smashed up every time on doesn't go as wanted or expected.

Note: No offense to OP, I think if someone has a bit of a fit at you and insults you on a date then there's more than enough reason to be upset.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 02-12-2013, 02:51 AM
MeeraReed MeeraReed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: East Coast, U.S.
Posts: 352
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManofDiscovery View Post
What was it you said about assumptions, cis-puss? .
Please stop calling her a cis-puss. That is really vile and rude. Yeah, I know it's from the "cat" in her name, but...please stop.

She's not the only one who is annoyed by your communication style and your deliberate misuse of terms. She's just the only one who has bothered to continue responding to you.
__________________
Single, straight, female, solo, non-monogamous.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 02-12-2013, 07:37 AM
ManofDiscovery ManofDiscovery is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: NW England
Posts: 117
Default

What a bunch of humourless crap.

Some of you need to get a grip and realise they there is a real world outside this forum. A real world where on dating sites, there is not a separate option for sex and gender. Just one. Where if someone puts female, they expect to meet what they consider to be a female, not a trans.

Yes there may be other deal breakers, but most of them are personality/ life style related and are not binary options you can select in your profile.

To me, if you give the impression to someone that they are getting one thing, and you give them another, then you can't be surprised if they aren't happy. Just like if the woman were to post pics from 10 years ago when she was 50 pounds lighter, I'd be annoyed. It's about misleading someone. Not that same as meeting up and discovering that there is no spark.

And seriously? You're getting offended by 'cis-puss' now?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:06 AM.