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  #41  
Old 02-09-2013, 06:33 PM
ahpook33 ahpook33 is offline
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Originally Posted by ManofDiscovery View Post
It's not a question of me 'defining gender' for someone else.

But that is exactly what you are doing!


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Originally Posted by ManofDiscovery View Post
At least when I respond, I try to make logically sound arguments that I've thought through - instead of making patronising statements like 'you could do well to read up on this'. What exactly should I be reading up on?

You just keep on making everyone else's point for them.

A lot of what you could be reading up on is contained in the thread above. Lots of sound knowledge from folks who know more about it than I do. Start there.

PS. you're funny when you call my statements "patronising" immediately after telling me that yours are "logically sound arguments that I've thought through".
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  #42  
Old 02-10-2013, 09:00 AM
ManofDiscovery ManofDiscovery is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
So I read that page. The points relevant to this can be summarised as 'a transgender person can see themselves as being a different identity to the sex they are assigned at birth'.

However just because you see yourself as female does not mean that someone else will. Because this is such a fundamental deal breaker for so many people, potential dates deserve to know up front.

However, if it's not a big deal, and it makes no difference 'i class myself as a woman therefore I am exactly the same as all other women'...why not tell your dates about it upfront? It's not a big deal, so no one should care, right?
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  #43  
Old 02-10-2013, 09:21 PM
Pyuvii Pyuvii is offline
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Originally Posted by ManofDiscovery View Post
Yes, and my response was for her to be more upfront in the first place. Nobody seemed to like this.

I think what you wanted to hear was 'those people are all so awful people for rejecting her, don't worry, just keep trying blah blah'.
I think telling them after the date was pretty upfront...
And no that wasn't what I wanted to hear.

I wanted/want to know how to comfort her after she's been rejected for something that's an essential part of her identity; Honestly I probably should have left out the trans part because it seems to have completely derailed the thread =P
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  #44  
Old 02-11-2013, 06:11 PM
ManofDiscovery ManofDiscovery is offline
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Originally Posted by Pyuvii View Post
I think telling them after the date was pretty upfront...
And no that wasn't what I wanted to hear.

I wanted/want to know how to comfort her after she's been rejected for something that's an essential part of her identity; Honestly I probably should have left out the trans part because it seems to have completely derailed the thread =P
The nature of upfront is that it happens beforehand, not after.

However, sorry for derailing your thread, since in fairness you did ask how to comfort her. Give her a cuddle? Best way I can think of. Some people are going to accept her and some won't...that is a constant I'm afraid.
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  #45  
Old 02-11-2013, 07:57 PM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Originally Posted by ktpoet View Post
Generally, anyone in the queer community should be pretty accepting and not turned off by the trans* status.
"should" being the operative word. Unfortunately, the queer so-called-community is sometimes the most guilty of rejecting trans* people. It's stupid and it needs to change.

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Originally Posted by ManofDiscovery View Post
There are plenty of dudes out there who have a think for trans girls (myself included), but you want to know what you're dealing with beforehand.
All the trans* people I know very emphatically don't want to be dated specifically "because" they're trans*. They're not a fetish. Having a "thing" for trans girls is completely objectifying them: I'm not attracted to you as a person, I'm attracted your trans* identity.

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Originally Posted by iluvawhooty810 View Post
U seem worried only about one side of these? The transgender person, and their safety, what about emotional, and verbal abuse the guy may also get after telling his friends, maybe family, mother, grandmother, etc.. bout this wonderful woman who hes so attracted too and click so good.
So basically you're saying that because trans* people are hated and judged by most of society, they should have to put themselves out there to be more hated and judged, just so that other people can't possibly be hated and judged by proxy for being associated with them?

A man isn't likely to get beat-up or killed for going out on a date with a trans* woman. He isn't likely to be rejected by his family. If he endures verbal abuse from his friends and family, then his friends and family are ass holes and he probably shouldn't spend time around them anyway. And above all, his family need never know. They're not going to have sex with his girlfriend, right? They're not going to find out on Facebook, because remember we're talking about a trans* woman who is selective about whom she tells. If it was plastered all over her Facebook, this man in question would have known before the first date and this conversation never would have happened.
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Last edited by SchrodingersCat; 02-11-2013 at 08:08 PM.
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  #46  
Old 02-11-2013, 08:04 PM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Originally Posted by ManofDiscovery View Post
However just because you see yourself as female does not mean that someone else will. Because this is such a fundamental deal breaker for so many people, potential dates deserve to know up front.
You're not acknowledging that it's a deal breaker for both sides. If me being a trans* woman is a deal breaker for you, then your cis-female sexual orientation is just as much a deal breaker for me. When it comes to relationship compatibility, my right to know your sexual orientation supersedes your right to know what genitals I was born with.

So I'm going to turn this around and say that if a straight man doesn't want to date a trans* woman, then the onus is on him to make that clear before going on any dates with any women. Not only do the trans* women have the right to know, but I personally, as a cis-gendered woman, would be turned off by someone with such a narrow view of gender and sexuality.
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Last edited by SchrodingersCat; 02-11-2013 at 10:33 PM.
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  #47  
Old 02-11-2013, 09:55 PM
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NovemberRain NovemberRain is offline
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
You're not acknowledging that it's a deal breaker for both sides. If me being a trans* woman is a deal breaker for you, then your cis-female sexual orientation is just as much a deal breaker for me. When it comes to relationship compatibility, my right to know your sexual orientation supersedes your right to know what genitals I was born with.

So I'm going to turn this around and say that if straight man doesn't want to date a trans* woman, then the onus is on him to make that clear before going on any dates with any women. Not only do the trans* women have the right to know, but I personally, as a cis-gendered woman, would be turned off by someone with such a narrow view of gender and sexuality.
QFT. Brilliant, SC, simply brilliant.
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  #48  
Old 02-11-2013, 10:40 PM
ManofDiscovery ManofDiscovery is offline
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
So I'm going to turn this around and say that if a straight man doesn't want to date a trans* woman, then the onus is on him to make that clear before going on any dates with any women. Not only do the trans* women have the right to know, but I personally, as a cis-gendered woman, would be turned off by someone with such a narrow view of gender and sexuality.
This amused me slightly...I was just speaking to a girl off plenty of fish tonight on the phone for the first time.

I'm trying to imagine at which point in the conversation I would have inserted the phrase:

'Btw, just so you know...I don't want to date a trans woman. Are you a trans woman?'

I think that would have gone down really well - she would have loved that.

To call a man narrow minded because his sexual orientation is for somebody who does not have a cock is frankly ridiculous. I struggle to believe a person would actually try and put that forward as a credible argument.

Anyway...this debate is just going round in circles. Let's end it, because it's getting boring now. No new points are being raised.
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  #49  
Old 02-11-2013, 10:57 PM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Originally Posted by ManofDiscovery View Post
This amused me slightly...I was just speaking to a girl off plenty of fish tonight on the phone for the first time.

I'm trying to imagine at which point in the conversation I would have inserted the phrase:

'Btw, just so you know...I don't want to date a trans woman. Are you a trans woman?'

I think that would have gone down really well - she would have loved that.
Well colour me gobsmacked.

Duh.

At exactly the same point in the conversation where you expect the trans* woman to say "Oh, by the way, I was born with a penis."

*face palm*

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Anyway...this debate is just going round in circles. Let's end it, because it's getting boring now. No new points are being raised.
On the contrary. I raised a new and valid point regarding whose responsibility it is to ensure sexual compatibility. But rather than address that point, you just looked at how humiliating it would be to actually be the person who has to do that. Funny, that. You think you're entitled to that information, but you don't think you're required to provide the complementary piece of the puzzle, because that would be awkward and difficult for you. Well boo fucking hoo. Trans* people have to deal with judgemental comments from people like you every moment of their lives. But who cares about that, right? I mean... Obviously your needs come first. God forbid they should inconvenience you or make you uncomfortable. The horror!

But I concede your conclusion. I would have better luck discussing this issue with a door knob. At least then I would know better than to expect an intelligent response and sincere consideration of points made that don't support its pre-existing conclusion.
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Gralson: my husband (works out of town).
Auto: my girlfriend (lives with her husband Zoffee).

The most dangerous phrase in the English language is "we've always done it this way."

Last edited by SchrodingersCat; 02-11-2013 at 11:09 PM.
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  #50  
Old 02-11-2013, 11:09 PM
ManofDiscovery ManofDiscovery is offline
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
On the contrary. I raised an excellent point regarding whose responsibility it is to ensure sexual compatibility. But rather than address that point, you just looked at how humiliating it would be to do that. Funny, that. You think you're entitled to that information, but you don't think you're required to provide the complementary piece of the puzzle, because that would be awkward and difficult for you. Well boo fucking hoo. Trans* people have to deal with judgemental comments from people like you every moment of their lives. But who cares about that, right? I mean... Obviously your needs come first. God forbid they should inconvenience you or make you uncomfortable. The horror!
You raised an excellent point, if you do say so yourself

Let's say a guy meets a woman on a dating site, who says she is a woman, but happens to be trans.

The guy is expecting to be meeting a woman. Whatever your view on whether a trans woman is the same as a woman...he is expecting a woman, not a trans woman.

Hence the responsibility is on the trans woman to inform him of this. He might be ok with it, he might not.

I hold no judgements against the trans community. People are free to do whatever they want, and live how they please. But if you're telling someone to expect one thing, and you're delivering another, then you have a right to inform them of that.

As if a guy is going to say 'btw, I'm not comfortable with dating trans women' to every single potential online date, on the offchance they may be trans. Such a small % of the population is trans that it makes no sense whatsoever.

Quote:
But I concede your conclusion. I would have better luck discussing this issue with a door knob.
If you can leave all the insults and drama inducing falmpalms behind next time...they add nothing to the debate, and do nothing to strengthen your point.

Last edited by ManofDiscovery; 02-11-2013 at 11:12 PM.
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