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  #31  
Old 02-08-2013, 07:27 PM
ManofDiscovery ManofDiscovery is offline
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The whole 'you don't know if it will get sexual before you go on a date so it doesn't matter' thing doesn't really fly for me.

The idea is that you are going on a date because there is potential romantic interest. There are plenty of men out there who wouldn't care if a woman was trans or not. There are also plenty of men for whom this would be a dealbreaker.

This is not the same as having a STD, because most STDs are not permanent. But again, if someone had something as serious as HIV or AIDs, then I would expect to know pretty early on...if not before the first date, at an appropriate point during it, if it was obvious both parties were getting on well.

But the fact that you used to be a man is a lot different to simply having a chequered past, and having been in jail etc.

I agree that gender identity is not simply the same as your genital composition...but many guys would not agree and would only want to date a woman who has been legally classed as sex female for her entire life.

Whether they are right or wrong to feel this doesn't really matter - it is their preference and they are entitled to know.

The only concession I will make is that I could just about see that a trans woman, if it was going well on the first date, could then reveal the full story before things got any heavier. But even then, the guy would be pretty justified in feeling misled.

The woman is then left with the possibility of the man storming out of the bar in a rage...is this preferable to simply being upfront, and letting the people who want you as you are to then meet you?
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  #32  
Old 02-08-2013, 07:40 PM
Pyuvii Pyuvii is offline
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I stated that not all relationships are sexual =P

My main issue with your statements is that you are looking at trans as being some sort of lifestyle choice; It's not a lifestyle choice, it's a matter of identity!

And it's not like these people are really going "Oh hey, I think a penis is physically repulsing to me, and I don't think I could have sex with this person and have that aspect of a relationship, which I think would cause relationship problems, so I don't want to have a relationship with this person" they are going "EEW a Tranny, eeewww!"
Don't defend these people >_>

Anyways, the issue I was asking about was how to comfort her when she's being rejected solely for something that she was born with, not on whether or not she tell them etc etc, so if you want to continue that conversation, please start a new thread.
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  #33  
Old 02-08-2013, 09:36 PM
ahpook33 ahpook33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManofDiscovery View Post
When you make a point and say things like 'you obviously know nothing about gender', 'this annoys me' and then attempt to take the higher ground by saying you won't enter into the debate any further - it just shows that you're struggling to express yourself in either a mature or calm fashion.
You have demonstrated several times that the only opinion on this that matters to you is your own, and those that mirror your own. THIS is why your point of view on this is demeaning. You do not get to define gender for others, no matter how certain you feel about your own definitions.

Go ahead and disagree, but stop trying to invalidate other people's points of view on this. You could do well to read more on the subject and learn a few things.
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  #34  
Old 02-08-2013, 11:33 PM
AJ1 AJ1 is offline
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Originally Posted by ManofDiscovery View Post
But the fact that you used to be a man is a lot different to simply having a chequered past, and having been in jail etc.
No, it isn't. Perhaps for you, having been to jail is less of a dealbreaker than being trans, and to someone else (me, for instance) it isn't. To some men, the fact that I can't bear children is a deal-breaker, to others it isn't. To many men, having breast implants or not shaving would be dealbreakers, to others they aren't. That doesn't make the information required first date conversation. I wouldn't feel mislead to find out a man had been to jail on a second or third date, even though that would probably be a dealbreaker for me. If its a big deal to me, it is my job to ask.

Everyone has their preferences, and they are responsible for managing them. If you feel very strongly about not being with a person who is transgendered, then perhaps the onus should be on you to ask about it on the first date, if that is how soon you would like to know. I don't think there is any responsibility to disclose that information until it is clear that the relationship is going to become physical (which may or may not be the first date). If you want to know sooner, ask.
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  #35  
Old 02-09-2013, 12:20 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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This seems like an opportune moment to repost the "Genderbread Person" illustration:

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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
See Breaking through the binary: Gender explained using continuums. The image below is the printer-friendly version, a link to which is included in the article.

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  #36  
Old 02-09-2013, 12:52 AM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Might I add, NYCindie, that the genderbread person does not list the preference option of "pansexual"... some bisexual people want either a butch man or a femme woman, not, say, a femme guy or a butch (tomboy) gal, or a person who is gender fluid or trans.

And so, to address the OP: as far as preventing (as much as possible) the pain of being rejected for being trans, a transperson can screen their date, either online if it's cyberdating, like ok cupid, or on the first date, to see how open minded and queer or queer friendly their date is. Then, reveal that they are trans before groping begins (although this is debatable if they are a post-op transwoman and it's just casual sex), or dump the date if they seem close-minded, transphobic, disrespectful, insulting, or, heaven forbid, with the potential for violence.

Prevention is always better than cure, right?

Transpeople, especially tranwomen (altho the heroic Chaz Bono sure has taken a lot of media flak), are still acceptable butts of jokes everywhere, unlike other groups, such as Jews, African Americans, gays and lesbians, the disabled or mentally challenged, etc. This has got to change. Education is the only way it will change. I think fat people and little people are the only other cultural groups who can still also be used as the butts of jokes for a good har de har har.

Watch your kids. If your "son" seems to love dresses, high heels, wearing their hair long, pocketbooks, the color pink, jewelry, dolls, makeup, playing house, sewing and other traditionally feminine crafts, and other "feminine" things past the age of 4 (because kids don't really know their gender before that age), consider, "he" might actually be a girl. Get in touch with transfriendly organizations and counselors if you suspect a gender identity issue.

He may just be a femme boy, but "he" might be a girl! I wish school would start to teach kids that a penis doesn't automatically equal boy and vulva/vagina a girl. There are enough intersexed and transgendered persons out there, I think it's 2% of the population. Other cultures have long standing traditions of acceptance of this segment of the population. Western/European/Christian culture has been detrimental in our understanding, tolerance and celebration of people who are "different" in this way.
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Last edited by Magdlyn; 02-09-2013 at 01:00 AM.
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  #37  
Old 02-09-2013, 01:22 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
Might I add, NYCindie, that the genderbread person does not list the preference option of "pansexual"...
It may not be clear, but those terms listed are not meant to be a completely representative list; they are simply some points on the continuum (see the arrows on the lines?), and there could be many other options in between them. But I just clicked on the link to the article where I found that illustration and it seems the author has updated it to include pansexual at http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/...d-person-v2-0/.

Here is a smaller version of his illustration:
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  #38  
Old 02-09-2013, 11:11 AM
ManofDiscovery ManofDiscovery is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyuvii View Post
Anyways, the issue I was asking about was how to comfort her when she's being rejected solely for something that she was born with, not on whether or not she tell them etc etc, so if you want to continue that conversation, please start a new thread.
Yes, and my response was for her to be more upfront in the first place. Nobody seemed to like this.

I think what you wanted to hear was 'those people are all so awful people for rejecting her, don't worry, just keep trying blah blah'.
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  #39  
Old 02-09-2013, 11:18 AM
ManofDiscovery ManofDiscovery is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahpook33 View Post
You have demonstrated several times that the only opinion on this that matters to you is your own, and those that mirror your own. THIS is why your point of view on this is demeaning. You do not get to define gender for others, no matter how certain you feel about your own definitions.

Go ahead and disagree, but stop trying to invalidate other people's points of view on this. You could do well to read more on the subject and learn a few things.
I will let you invalidate my point of view, but I'm not allowed to respond? That makes sense.

I have read/listened to everything that's come back, some of which makes sense, and some of which is frankly ridiculous.

How some people can suggest that a person having a penis when you're expecting them to have a vagina is the same as them liking strawberry icecream when you like chocolate is beyond me.

It's not a question of me 'defining gender' for someone else.

At least when I respond, I try to make logically sound arguments that I've thought through - instead of making patronising statements like 'you could do well to read up on this'. What exactly should I be reading up on?
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  #40  
Old 02-09-2013, 05:19 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManofDiscovery View Post
'you could do well to read up on this'. What exactly should I be reading up on?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender
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