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  #111  
Old 02-09-2013, 07:39 PM
nondy2 nondy2 is offline
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Oik. Thanks. I don't mean to play the victim, in fact it's the opposite.

I'm going to remove me ego or try

I was upset because I was threatened with an infraction for being sarcastic. I do not think my comments warranted that.

Again, ego out of it. The disability movement is about getting society to understand that people with disabilities are not second-class citizens. From my understanding of it, we want people to respected for their individual talents, not thought of a "less than." That is why the comment "I am in control of my body and mind" rubs me the wrong way. Yes. That is the typical belief. But an activist with autism might say I am in control of my mind- it's just different from yours. I should not personalize it. I am speaking from the point of view (one point of view) that is from a movement I have been involved with for some time.
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  #112  
Old 02-09-2013, 07:44 PM
nondy2 nondy2 is offline
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Vix,

I am so very sorry. I do not mean to put your struggle down in any way. This got way out of hand. I was upset because Boring offended me, and then I was hit with an infraction.

I do KNOW other's lives are really realy hard, much harder than mine.

I do think that AS A GROUP disabled people have had less success in getting jobs and so on than OTHER GROUPS. That is all I meant. I am sorry.
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  #113  
Old 02-09-2013, 07:47 PM
nondy2 nondy2 is offline
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I can see where you are coming from. I did not mean to use victim status. I did not at all mean to belittle anyone.

All I said was that people who haven't raised a child don't have that exact experience. They CAN speak to it, but from the outside.. is that belittling?
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  #114  
Old 02-09-2013, 07:52 PM
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Vixtoria Vixtoria is offline
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Yay for you being in full control of your body and mind, some of us aren't. Some of us will never be. That's just a fact. So maybe a better reply to "I am in control of my body and mind" is to laugh it off with a "Me too! It's just not always in the shape/form/location I want it!"

I don't see where you were threatened but I miss things. A lot, hence the not in control of my mind at all times. Or most times. If you felt threatened, take it to staff. That's what they are there for! As someone who is staff on sites I can tell you yes it's a lot of work, but they would MUCH RATHER you take it to them then get so upset and feel victimized. Staff can't be everywhere, they can't read everything and they most certainly can not know what offends one person or the next.

I really don't think anyone meant offense, but it's like calling a black person black, colored, african-american. Which one is right and which one is offensive depends on the person! Same with queer, gay, lesbian. Some people don't like one term others do. I know I can't blame people for using the term I find offensive until I have told them!

Disabled people do have a hard time, it's a toss up IMHO, whether it's harder for those that are considered obviously disabled and those with hidden disabilities. I'm sure those with obvious will say them and those with hidden will say them. It always feels worse when it's what you are dealing with.

Seriously though, you ever feel threatened then you tell staff. They try to keep things safe here even if they try to not censor people. They just can't know everything. Also, a private message of "that was a bit too far for me." Can't go wrong either. Best case they see where it might have hurt and apologize, worse case they blow you off and you go to staff.
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  #115  
Old 02-09-2013, 08:02 PM
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Vixtoria Vixtoria is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nondy2 View Post
I can see where you are coming from. I did not mean to use victim status. I did not at all mean to belittle anyone.

All I said was that people who haven't raised a child don't have that exact experience. They CAN speak to it, but from the outside.. is that belittling?
I think you need to take into consideration that it can be. I was told I wouldn't have children of my own, yet I did. If I hadn't, I would have felt belittled that my experience is from the outside.

When major things happened in my family one of my earliest memories is running. Hearing the news and running for the stairs, my only thought was 'my kids.' Not the kids, not my sister and brothers, my kids. They were mine. So much more than they were even my mothers. If you had told me then that I couldn't understand because they weren't actually mine and I wasn't on any legal status whatsoever considered a parent, I would have been crushed, and angry.

There are people that have tons of hands on experience and are parents. Like my mother. I wouldn't want her opinion. She wasn't a parent, a mother, in any way. Giving birth is nothing. She is a woman who should never ever have had children, but she did. Her opinion is more valid than someone that didn't have children? Hardly.

Honestly, the crap of 'it's different when you have your own children!' is just that, crap. I feel nothing different about the love for my own children versus the ones I raised or helped raise that were not mine. Hard for others to understand, but then if they aren't in that position I guess it doesn't matter? Should I not accept your opinion as valid as a parent because you have ONLY had your own children? Flip the switch, when you reverse things you start to see how you could have been possibly just as prejudice against others as you believe they are to you.
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  #116  
Old 02-09-2013, 09:01 PM
ThatGirlInGray ThatGirlInGray is offline
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Originally Posted by Vixtoria View Post
If you had told me then that I couldn't understand because they weren't actually mine and I wasn't on any legal status whatsoever considered a parent, I would have been crushed, and angry.
With good reason, because in your words they WERE your kids. When I say it's different if they're your own kids, I'm not talking about biological or even legal crap. The emotional connection is a HUGE part of what makes someone a parent. If YOU know that they are yours to take care of, to love and be responsible for, to make the tough decisions as well as the easy ones, then fine, they're your kids and your experience is absolutely on par with other parents.

Quote:
There are people that have tons of hands on experience and are parents. Like my mother. I wouldn't want her opinion. She wasn't a parent, a mother, in any way. Giving birth is nothing. She is a woman who should never ever have had children, but she did. Her opinion is more valid than someone that didn't have children? Hardly.
I would argue that, according to what you've related, she WASN'T a parent. And this isn't about opinions. Like assholes, everyone's got one, and they're entitled to it. The difference, as I see it, from someone who cares for children (sibling, babysitter, teacher, whatever) versus someone who raises children is one of perspective and sheer depth of responsibility, emotion, and knowledge. It sounds like you raised your siblings. You knew what it was like to do the best you can, not knowing for sure how things were going to turn out with this small life you were trying to guide. Others who have never been in that position (regardless of whether or not they've given birth) are not, imo, in any position to judge my choices or actions. Obviously they still CAN, but I'm certainly not going to bother letting their judgement have much influence over me if I feel like there is an important piece of the puzzle they're missing, having never experienced what I'm dealing with.

Quote:
Honestly, the crap of 'it's different when you have your own children!' is just that, crap. I feel nothing different about the love for my own children versus the ones I raised or helped raise that were not mine. Hard for others to understand, but then if they aren't in that position I guess it doesn't matter? Should I not accept your opinion as valid as a parent because you have ONLY had your own children? Flip the switch, when you reverse things you start to see how you could have been possibly just as prejudice against others as you believe they are to you.
The crap part is the narrow definition some have of how one qualifies as a parent. I maintain, having been on both sides of it (an opinionated person without kids, and an opinionated person with kids) that raising children gives you more knowledge and a different perspective than someone who has never raised children. The love I feel for my biological children won't be any different than the love I feel for my adopted children, so I totally understand what you're saying- biological connection has NOTHING to do with parent status. It's actions and responsibility and emotion. If you have those, you're a parent. If you don't, you're probably not.
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  #117  
Old 02-09-2013, 09:10 PM
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BrigidsDaughter BrigidsDaughter is offline
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Originally Posted by nondy2 View Post
Sorry, V.

but someone could also say they are lucky to be straight ...would that be ok?
Yes, someone is allowed to say that they are lucky they are straight, acknowledging that it must be difficult to be gay and they are glad that they are not. Everyone is entitled to their personal opinion. It doesn't make it automatically right/ wrong, or discriminatory.
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  #118  
Old 02-09-2013, 09:27 PM
ThatGirlInGray ThatGirlInGray is offline
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Originally Posted by Vixtoria View Post
Should I not accept your opinion as valid as a parent because you have ONLY had your own children? Flip the switch, when you reverse things you start to see how you could have been possibly just as prejudice against others as you believe they are to you.
One more thing that just occurred to me about this part specifically- Let's say you have a problem that has to do with some issue surrounding balancing the time, needs, and attention of a biological child versus another child you're raising (adopted or not) and, after I give a bit of advice, you say, "That's not really helpful because you can't understand about X unless you've tried to do it yourself," YOU WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! I am NOT capable of truly understanding (yet) what it's like to reassure one child that another is not coming in to "take their place" or that I still love them even though the special needs child needs me more. Just like I'm not fully capable of understanding what my friends with disabilities go through. Or those with chronic pain. Or dealing with an abusive relationship or family. Or cancer treatments. Ultimately, when someone says, "You can't fully understand if you haven't been there" they're probably right, and those people trying to give advice need to remove THEIR egos from the situation and realize that no matter how much knowledge and experience they have in other situations, they don't and can't know and understand everything and need to accept their limitations. Hopefully gracefully.

That doesn't make either side discriminatory automatically, but the mindset of "I have the right to decide for you even though I've never been in your shoes" can lead to discrimination easily, and as I see it that's the fear many minorities have and what we need to try so hard to guard against.
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Last edited by ThatGirlInGray; 02-09-2013 at 09:30 PM.
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  #119  
Old 02-09-2013, 10:01 PM
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NovemberRain NovemberRain is offline
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1. My son is ten. He wouldn't have to make that choice for quite a few years and the feminists would say (perhaps) he NEVER can make that choice - only pariticpate/advise.. as a man. So, the discussion is a bit premature.
Hi nondy,

I'd like to offer a different perspective. For the record, I am invisibly disabled, and child-free by choice.

This struck me. I used to listen to Dr. Laura (when she was on simple AM radio). I used to drive across country a lot, and there were times when there was nothing else to listen to (back in the day, before mp3s). I really, really hated her in the beginning, and then I realized some of what she said was sensible. She is fierce and passionate about protecting children from abuse. As a child who was abused, I wish that there was anyone in my life who would have noticed or protected me with even half the passion that she has.

She talked about her son, a lot. And I would hear her tell people about how she educated her son about abortion. She has, as you may know, or could imagine, a very strong opinion about it. I remember her relating that, after explaining to him, he said to her (at five-ish?), 'mommy, why would anyone suck a perfectly good human being into a sink?' (or something like that)

The point that I'm bringing here is about how that child grows up. I'd be willing to bet that her son is going to be damn sure he's not dipping his stick into a woman that has a different opinion on abortion than he does.

So, even though your son may only be able to participate/advise, he has the option to choose in advance. And not having the info, or not knowing it's important, he may neglect that advance choice.

I, myself, made that choice for myself before I started (consciously) having sex with people. I don't remember if I told my partners that as a teenager (I likely did not), but later on I did. [After my tubes were tied, it became a whole different conversation. I would say, 'My tubes are tied, however, you need to know that my feelings have changed somewhat. If I were to get pregnant, it would be such a damn miracle, I would feel rude to abort a creature that worked so hard to be here.']
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  #120  
Old 02-09-2013, 10:24 PM
BoringGuy BoringGuy is offline
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if one were to go back and read my and nycindie's posts that are obliquely referred to above (regarding whether a 10-year-old "knows about" abortion, from whence the thread segue'd (sp?) into a clusterfuck of debating whether child-free/child-less people are more oppressed than crippled people <-- the OP referred to themself as "crippled" at some point; don't think i didn't notice that), one would see that we were NOT TRYING TO GIVE FUCKING PARENTING ADVICE. We were POINTING OUT THAT A TEN YEAR OLD CAN FIND OUT THINGS THAT THEIR PARENT(s) WON'T DISCUSS WITH THEM. Maybe other people were trying to do give parenting advice; i seem to recall Helo insisting that he knows all about it even though he's a paid caretaker and not a parent, etc. etc. But I don't see folks citing his remarks about that, just mine and nycindie's - the individuals who have proudly declared that we want no part of this parenting gig.

disability or not, gay or not, black or not - i have experience with others becoming "triggered" when i state that i don't like kids. it gets inaccurately translated into "i hate kids and don't want them to exist anywhere, ever. kids should be destroyed wherever they can be found, pregnant people should be forced to abort, and all women should be surgically sterilized ASAP." Then, inevitably, someone who can't have kids but wants to or was told they couldn't but did after all has a TANTRUM because they can't fathom someone else being happy living a life that would be a complete nightmare for themselves. Well guess what - maybe having CP (which I do not), being straight (which I am not), or having a kid (which I do not) would be MY worst nightmare. It's too fucking bad if someone else's life would be a nightmare for me - if my saying so (which i did NOT - i said i consider myself lucky to not be disabled or unhealthy because i am aware something could change in the blink of an eye - you people do not know how close i came to dying a couple years ago but instead of whining about what i've "been through", I choose to say that i appreciate my condition moore because of it) makes you take umbrage, then you are obviously not as happy with YOUR life as you are trying to convince yourself you are.

tl;dr if you want to be treated like everyone else, stop demanding to be treated like you're unique and special. pick one because you can't have both.

Last edited by BoringGuy; 02-09-2013 at 10:29 PM. Reason: went on a tangent and forgot to say something
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