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  #11  
Old 01-22-2013, 07:53 PM
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Marcus Marcus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatGirlInGray View Post
Marcus, I don't know what post you read, because there are SEVERAL Red Flags here:
Oh I agree that the post is riddled with red flags.
I also agree that the relationship sounds poisonous, complete with high octane drama and an apparent absence of adult communication.
I just don't see the OP being somehow a victim here and the guy a "user and abuser". He sounds like he is emotionally immature, but there aren't any characters in that post who aren't emotionally immature.
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  #12  
Old 01-22-2013, 08:20 PM
ThatGirlInGray ThatGirlInGray is offline
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Maybe "abuser" was a little harsh (although I wouldn't discount the possibility of emotional/mental abuse) but "user" is completely apt. LOTS of emotionally immature people use others- the saddest part is that they don't even realize they're doing it so they have NO reason to try to change.
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  #13  
Old 01-22-2013, 08:23 PM
Hannahfluke Hannahfluke is online now
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I wanted to comment on the thing you said about the bag of "stuff" you gave back. You said if we looked into the bag it'd look like the most romantic date ever. There's a huge, huge, huge difference between being romantic and being loving.

My boyfriend and my husband aren't terribly romantic. We don't do candlelight dinners very often. I've gotten one really expensive jewelry gift from my husband (besides replacing my really cheap wedding set with a nicer one) in the 21 years we've been married (and that was this past year). My boyfriend, in the 15 or so months we've been dating, has done one romantic dinner for me (he cooked dinner for me last Valentine's Day, planning everything and cooking it, even though we were at my house). I had to tell him, around our first anniversary, that I'd really like it if he got me a present, even if it was just a set of earrings from Target (he picked up beer he knew I'd like and dropped it at my house on his way to visit his parents in a different state for the first Christmas we were together and didn't get me a birthday gift at all). He did buy me a couple presents for Christmas but I think that's because I went out of my way making sure to wear the necklace he got me for our anniversary A LOT and making sure he knew I loved it. My boyfriend hasn't ever bought me flowers. My husband has bought me flowers maybe 3 or 4 times in the last year (truthfully, I can only think of two, one of which was because we'd bought cool underwater LED lights for a party we were hosting and needed something else to put in the vases also ).

But I know that both of them care about me and love me and want me to be happy. My husband does things that make me feel loved all the time, from rubbing my shoulders when they hurt to staying home with me when I'm having a hard time, even though I know he'd rather be with his girlfriend since she's free (she has a really busy schedule). My boyfriend does things like come over to my house after a long day at school (he's a nontraditional college student) to fix my son's car for me, since I had an unexpected interview the next day and so my son couldn't use my car to get to college like he'd planned on. My boyfriend recently moved (a week ago) and yesterday told me "I don't know if you've noticed, but I left the left side of the closet for you to use" (it's a studio apartment and only has one closet). The fact that he's willing to give up some of his little storage space so that I can leave some stuff at his place instead of carting everything back and forth the 2 or 3 nights a week I sleep over there makes me feel incredibly loved.

The fact that this guy is really romantic doesn't over-ride the fact that he has not acted very loving to you. Perhaps you feel like a monster because our society has all these movies and books and other cultural items that tell us that being romantic means that they are being loving and you feel like you are rejecting love because he's so romantic. But the fact of the matter is that he's not being loving most of the time, it sounds like, despite the fact he is being romantic. His romantic gestures sound pretty hallow to me. I'd rather have my boyfriend who is willing to stand out in the cold helping my son fix his car (my husband hates car repairs) than someone who buys me flowers but doesn't support and help me.

Hannah
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  #14  
Old 01-23-2013, 05:38 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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I mean this in a kind but firm way, ok? I am not criticizing or judging!

Why do you feel yucky? I think maybe because several times you went back to a relationship that was not feeding you in the past. That was not self respecting behavior and you are starting to see that/come to terms with that. Dealing with your being disappointed in the relationship, dealing in the break up feelings that come with ending a relationship, and dealing with takign stock of your own behaviors. You are in this "review space" frame of mind -- and it's a big thing to have to digest.

But don't take ownership of all the problems here being all YOU. Some yes, but some... this dude sounds messed up. Ack.

When you stated needs that were not being met, he flipped it on you like "you are not ok with polyamory" so it could be your problem. Rather than him owning your feedback as "You are not ok with HIS BEHAVIOR right now." Has nothing to do with polyamory. Has everything to do with loving/kindness type behaviors being shown/not shown BY HIM. And him not wanting to own that or change it and you having to deal with that.

Never mind the wife laundry list. I wonder if she's being mistreated herself.

When you wanted to break up for your own best health...

Quote:
Shortly thereafter, I told him I thought it would be best to break up. It was really hard for me. I really didn't want to, but the whole situation was just too crazy and chaotic.
He ignores your limit...

Quote:
He said he thought we needed a "temporary separation" and we could come back together later. He also said he thought it'd be ok for us to still get together, fool around, or even have sex during this time. I didn't ask... those came out of his mouth unbidden.
And when he trespasses upon you, and shows up at your door...you do not enforce consequence by saying "No. I am not seeing you. I did not agree to that arrangement. Shoo." You do not leave the door closed -- but open the door and let him in.

Quote:
Since then, little has changed aside from not having sex.
Again, not choosing YOU and your best healths. Not choosing self-respecting behavior here. You could choose to apply principle 1 to yourself -- your own inherent, worth, dignity and value. If he comes over, why bother to open the door? Remember you broke up with him?

I am not hearing you changing phones and emails, I am not hearing you telling him to cease and desist all contact.

So... he does not respect you and show you respectful behavior. You do not respect you and show you respectful behavior either. You say you want to leave but do not choose to behave like you have left. It's nice to want to be on good terms with an ex, but... This could be a case where you cannot be friends with this man and still be in good health yourself!

He's give an inch take a miler type? Well... you cannot force him to change his ways. But you can walk away from him and stop associating yourself with him. Put your own oxygen mask on, YOU look out for your healths and safety. You have that responsibility to yourself.

Of course you are going to feel yucky. This is a lot to be dealing with.

To move it out of the yucky zone... You could choose to take better care of you and choose better behavior toward you.

I'm UU, and I don't behave this way. I am poly and I do not behave this way. This guy is behaving in abuser-y sounding ways to me. At the very least, in some seriously disrespectful ways. His wife is suicidal and his exGF is PTSD person and he does WHAT? Care for them appropriately? Respect boundaries/tiggers? Or futz about with his own wants? (And it is alarming he is a youth advisor too. Ugh.)

Please consider checking out the website and esp clicking the image for the larger speak out loud list in case anything else rings a bell. If it does, still leave but do it safely.

You see it is unhealthy. That is good. But I sincerely hope you are not being abused. I hope you are safe and can safely WALK AWAY from this guy. Sometimes the leaving time is a dangerous times and since you have tried to break up and he's not hearing it... I worry about your well being. Some people don't like being given "no" for an answer and escalate things.

Be safe over there, ok? Can you talk to your minister for pastoral care or guidance?

Walk away for your own best healths and break up like you wanted to. But be careful doing it. He's red flagging me too. Sounds weird over there. I am sorry you are dealing with this.

concerned,
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 01-23-2013 at 06:00 PM.
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  #15  
Old 01-26-2013, 05:13 AM
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lovefromgirl lovefromgirl is offline
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Originally Posted by Valentine View Post
His wife is diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, and one night she was upset and broke her laptop in half with her bare hands. Then she tore her dress in half. Then he went to the store, and she walked barefoot a mile to meet him in the parking lot.
That right there is more than an anxiety disorder. I have had anxiety for over a decade now (officially diagnosed in 2003 after a very special plane ride). I've known plenty of other people with anxiety. I have never seen it manifest like that, in me or anyone else.

He should not have asked her whether she wanted to go in. He should have told her she was going and left her ass in the ER, preferably with a needle full of Haldol jabbed into said ass. She was the kind of unwell that wanted seeing-to then and there.

Quote:
He dropped her off and started to leave, and when she asked him where he was going, he said, "You don't get to know that," and went to his best friend's place...
Then again, he appears to have his head firmly tucked up his own backside, so.

Quote:
A couple days later, his wife informed him that while he was at his friend's place (and mine), she had gathered up all the pills in the house she could find and a razor blade. She took them out to the hill by their house, wrote a suicide note, and sat there thinking about it. She didn't self-harm or take the pills. As he told me about this, he stated that this is actually an improvement on her behavior... they both came to an agreement that destroying her computer and all the rest was better than her cutting herself (which she has a history of).
REALLY not an anxiety disorder. Try borderline, try severe depression, try the manic-depressive spectrum, but don't blame this one on anxiety unless she's so miserable from the anxiety that all she wants is to stop the misery. I've had to be talked down a few times because when I've been anxious without much respite/normalcy/recovery time, I wonder if it will only end when I'm dead.

He was a right idiot to leave her alone that night, though, and taken with everything else you've posted, they need to get their shit together before they involve themselves with anyone else.

Quote:
This is so fucking unhealthy.
Listen to yourself. Run. Run all the miles.
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  #16  
Old 01-31-2013, 05:14 AM
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Valentine Valentine is offline
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So, I was wrong about some things, but I'm not too concerned about them. Here's why:

Dude has apparently not actually seen one of his other partners in over a month. The other one, he doesn't actually like and doubts he'll keep seeing her. Conflicts between him and his wife about household stuff continue to go unresolved and cause unhealthy conflict. Until recently, he spent most evenings talking on chat with a member of the church youth group, as he was feeling alone and she's a teenager with teenager problems and likes talking with him.

He took this youth out to lunch last week. She confessed having a crush on him. This has happened before. However, this time he responded by indicating he reciprocated her feelings and continuing to hang out with her the rest of the day, holding hands, listening to romantic music, etc. She is 15. He is 37.

Dude's wife has been sleeping on the couch ever since. He informed one other youth adviser (a friend of his) and then me. I informed ministers confidentially, and he plans to meet with one of them to inform them himself. Dude is seeking therapy. The other adviser he told had no intention of informing the ministers, and so he unaware that they know anything.

Wife is moving out. She's been spending more and more nights with her boyfriend. Dude told me he's thinking about killing himself. That was a contributing factor in choosing to inform ministers.

A friend of mine sent him a text of support in seeking therapy. Following this, dude tells me he feels he can't trust me or talk with me. He reminded me that he told me not to talk with my friend about him back when we were dating (another reason I broke up with him, because that's some controlling, abusive bullshit). Since then, he's sent me several emails about how he's feeling, updating me on his therapy plans and stuff.

Wife and I have not spoken. Seems to me their marriage is ending, but it's seemed like that before. I'd like to reach out to her, but I am also afraid to and do not really know what I'd do if I tried.

I'm not feeling like a monster anymore. I've informed the appropriate authorities, discussed plans for future intervention if necessary, and steeled myself against any attempts of emotional entanglement.

I've spoken with the youth in question. She's scared for him (of course, whether he deserves her concern or not), but holding up. Apparently I was the only one who had reached out to her since all this happened. I've made sure that won't continue to be the case. The ministers are discussing how informing her family is to be dealt with. The way it was phrased, I am not sure I agree with how it is going to be handled. It sounds like they are going to encourage the youth to approach her parents about it rather than go to the parents directly. I grew up Catholic, and this is really not pushing any of my trust buttons, to put it mildly. I might leave the church over this, depending on how all of it unfolds.

This stuff has nothing to do with polyamory. I'm feeling really overwhelmed, though, and I am amazed that I haven't started smoking again or gotten plastered. In fact... I have this overwhelming desire to be really, really healthy.

Any suggestions?
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  #17  
Old 01-31-2013, 05:42 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Wife and I have not spoken. Seems to me their marriage is ending, but it's seemed like that before. I'd like to reach out to her, but I am also afraid to and do not really know what I'd do if I tried.
Could tell her just that. Maybe like...

"I wanted to reach out to you. I was afraid to because I really don't know what to do or say if I did or how you would react. Then I decided it was better to let you know I wanted to reach out to you in case you felt alone in all this. If you need me for anything in terms of appropriate support -- make you a dinner, walk the dog, etc. Let me know. Even if I don't know what you might need, I want you to know I am around. Willing to do something for you to help comfort if you are willing to let me know what that appropriate thing could be."
Quote:
I'm not feeling like a monster anymore. I've informed the appropriate authorities, discussed plans for future intervention if necessary, and steeled myself against any attempts of emotional entanglement.
Good for you! Yay! Not feeling like a monster because you took some self-respecting and respecting-others kinds of behaviors in response to his shenanigans.

If he is threatening suicide -- you reporting to ministers is spot on. Hopefully his wife or ministers are calling ER.

I had been wondering if there was going to be some Yuuth inappropriate somewhere in there. Sigh.

I am glad you reported this in the appropriate channels and got the machine moving. I am glad you reached out to the youth. Could reach out to the parents, but follow the protocol laid out for this in your RE manual. Ours is pretty solid, so hopefully yours is too! There's plenty UUA resources there.

I am disturbed the other youth leader he confessed to did not report though. If this bothers you, I hope you told your ministers/DRE people. You may need your OWN pastoral care in all this. (Could point wife to that resource too).

Quote:
A friend of mine sent him a text of support in seeking therapy. Following this, dude tells me he feels he can't trust me or talk with me. He reminded me that he told me not to talk with my friend about him back when we were dating (another reason I broke up with him, because that's some controlling, abusive bullshit). Since then, he's sent me several emails about how he's feeling, updating me on his therapy plans and stuff.
I am glad you see where he is trying to be controlling.

But he's ALSO trying to make YOU own some responsibility for his feelings, get attention strokes, and/or make you his "captive audience" in his drama show.
  • unwanted email = he broadcasts to YOU whenever he wants. Your responses (or non response) he can bend to fuel his "perceived reality." Make it all jive with his song.
  • Face to face convo = exchange of ideas, and having to witness (rather than imagine) your actual reactions in real time to his talk, and his behavior. In your face, tone, talk. (Not easily ignorable... this actuality stuff. )

I note how he tells you he does not want to engage in "talking" because he doesn't "trust" you. (More like he cannot reliably expect you to play along with his perceived reality song that way. He cannot control your response in face time talk so he can keep telling himself "But I'm a nice guy! Nothing wrong with me!")

I note he wants you for "audience" and employs email to get what he wants from you. Your "audience-with-no-feedback-ness" or at least "Audience with feedback I can ignore." He can choose to delete your responses (if any) unread. He can choose to believe no response from you is "tacit agreement." There he can "control" the perceived reality song he plays himself.


Quote:
This stuff has nothing to do with polyamory. I'm feeling really overwhelmed, though, and I am amazed that I haven't started smoking again or gotten plastered. In fact... I have this overwhelming desire to be really, really healthy. Any suggestions?
Of course you are overwhelmed -- you have an emotional vampire still trying to suck you dry. He may even be a combo vampire. Could click to see which one ans the tips for dealing with each type.

He could choose to deal with his own best healths in more appropriate ways. Whether he does or doesn't is on him.

You could deal in your own self. You could tell him to cease and desist contact. You are not "the guy" for that. Direct this stuff to his therapist and minister people. His health is not your responsibility. You are broken up. You are also not friends because he is not safe for your own mental/emotional health. Then block him or change your email.

Hang in there. Keep choosing self-respecting behaviors -- not only are you not feeling "monster" any more, you are sounding a lot healthier already. Keep going on the healthier track and do what you need to do for YOUR best healths.

GL!
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 01-31-2013 at 06:06 AM.
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  #18  
Old 01-31-2013, 07:02 AM
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lovefromgirl lovefromgirl is offline
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So, I was wrong about some things, but I'm not too concerned about them.
The things you just listed would be setting off giant panic buttons in my head. Boyfriend's a closet pedo and, when called on his shit, apparently thinks threatening suicide is the way to go? No. You told the authorities. That is right. Now -- and here is the important part -- you get as far away from these people as you can because the cuckoo is strong in both of 'em. Sleeping in a church parking lot would be better for you than staying.
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  #19  
Old 02-09-2013, 11:27 PM
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NovemberRain NovemberRain is offline
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I keep trying to get distance, and then I go back to it because I don't want to lose my place to the new partners or I want to prove something or I just like him and it hurts to end things over and over again.

This is so fucking unhealthy.
None of the added 'explanation' changes anything. I think you've summed it up nicely there, all by yourself.

I'm wondering why, exactly, it is that you like him? I don't like him, and I don't know, don't want to know him.

What is likeable about telling a woman who is your wife, 'you don't get to know that,' when you are leaving her presence after she's just clearly exhibited some serious mental health challenges?

What is likeable about a man who tells you he's not sure if your relationship is good enough... for ANYthing?

What is likeable about a man who says he loves you and want to have sex with you and then refuses to do so?

What is likeable about a man who doesn't communicate cleanly and clearly and honestly with all his partners?

Do you have support? Are you in therapy? Or have good friends who can care for you from time to time? If not, I highly recommend all of that.


ETA:
oops, I didn't read page two. I'm with lovefromgirl. Run. Run all the miles.

I'm so sorry that church is letting you down. That sucks. Thank you for reaching out to the girl.
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Last edited by NovemberRain; 02-09-2013 at 11:34 PM.
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  #20  
Old 02-16-2013, 07:09 PM
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Valentine Valentine is offline
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Thank you so much, everyone, for your feedback. My family and friends have given me the same advice (get the fuck away).

It's weird. I used to have no trouble dropping people like bad habits. I've broken off total contact with people I was involved with or just friends with for shit that's benign by comparison to all this. I haven't been in denial about any of the horrible things I've mentioned here... but I've had a hard time walking away. It's not getting easier.

_____________

The church ministers met with the kid and her parents, and my ex-boyfriend has been asked to step down from the youth group. He does not go to the discussion group his wife heads anymore. He doesn't go to the services. His wife is moving out of their house. He tried to kill himself last Tuesday.

He has come to the conclusion that he is sick and has many problems relating to love/sex addiction and procrastination. His wife just thinks they're fundamentally incompatible in their relationship and life goals. As far as I can tell, she doesn't recognize the cycle of abuse and the overwhelming disrespect that characterized their interactions. He does, though. It is a shame it took all of this for him to see it.

I took GalaGirl's suggestion and sent a note of support to his wife. She seemed touched.

The ministers wrote him a note of support. He's got support from his mom, the youth adviser friend, and a childhood friend of his, but he's leaning on me heavily. Even after all the shitty treatment, it still tears me up to see him suffering. Even though he is reaping what he sowed. Their life, which I thought was so beautiful when I met them, has crumbled. It is awful. Just awful.

@NovemberRain - I do not have a therapist at this time and cannot afford one, but I do have good friends who can provide support. There's also the ministers. I trust them more now that I see how they ultimately handled all of this. I'm thinking it would be good to meet with them.

I think I'd feel guilty to walk away, though I can't concretely say why. I'm in a lot deeper than I thought.
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