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  #11  
Old 10-20-2010, 01:50 PM
Imagination Imagination is offline
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Default this happened so far/ friendships etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imagination View Post
Now I mailed a good friend of mine and suggested that we make a secret date, may be she will reply.
I told her in another E mail that this wouldn't be such a good idea. She wrote me back, that she also is in a relationship now and her friend wouldn't be very happy if she cheated him. But we want to stay in contact and possible meet each other (all of us) in the future (They live a few hours drive from my place)

I believe that one problem can be "forced" monogamy. But the other thing is, that many couples are quite isolated, don't have so many social contact and jelousy can play an important role here. This is the case kind of with my relationship, my girlfriend. So it will be great to just go out more and meet other friends or couples.

I migth want to visit another female friend for some days and Claudia has some problems with this. I offered her to come with me, but the whole situation is difficult for her, due to to the fear of being left, which has happened a few times to her.

Small steps are better, working with what is right now. I feel much better now, accepting what I am and what goes on everyday and learning how to deal with it.
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  #12  
Old 11-28-2010, 09:21 PM
Imagination Imagination is offline
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Default a new beginning

Now it's time to tell some more. Meanwhile I started to express my emotions and thouhgts in a self confident, may be sometimes also a little selfish way. Communication with Claudia improved but then we got into heavy arguments and she started to beat me regularily. Sometime I hit her back. One day it escalated and she attacked me sexually. This was not a rape but it kind of felt like it. I almost broke up.

My personal experiences are continued at the end of this post, next I introduce the foundation for my more determined attitude.

I started to study the teachings of the socialist patients collective, partly based on Wilhelm Reich. The idea is that illness is caused by the conditions of society. Our whole life is ruled by value (money) and the power (family, state, religion, corrupted science) that makes us stay in line. Power, which is an expression of the value thought system, can't unmask, because then the fraught would become obvious. When power unmasks it becomes physical - violence - and it results in illness. In illness the mutually exclusive matters value and violence are combined. Illness is the appearance of value and violence together, only in a changed form which is illness they can unite.

When we talk of sexuality, we reside within the frame of beaurocracy and the relationship of goods rather than human beings, the human species is still to evolve. Sexuality can only take place withing the boundaries that the economic, political, social and cultural environment of a society sets. Different forms of love or sexual relationships haven't necessarily anything to do with lust or sexual activity. Exclusively by making love and by having sex in a fullfilling way, a surplus of lust can be created.

There would be nothing wrong or dangerous about boundless sexuality. The limitation of genital fullfillment, cleared of all restrictions of society, is set by the sexual activity itself. While making love possibly a subject – object (of desire) relationship turns into a subject – subject relationship. On both sides subjectivity becomes objective when the object of desire is internalized. The object no longer is (only) object of desire, but it becomes part of the subject. In all other cases (drives), the fulfillment of the need don't lead to a union, we still suffer from subjectivity respectively the flaw that goes with it. The objectification of the other fails, it has only the function to be incorporated into a formal subjectivity. For example, when we eat, the sensation of hunger, a reluctance or unpleasure, is gone for the moment, but there is no additional lust created, no union, no real-ization comes up, only the need to eat will come up again.

Because of the division between subject and object talk and activities (without touch) that are related to sexuality can be intensely influenced by the rules of the capitalist programming (see above). To a large extent life is organized according to mind control. Second hand needs are created and exploited, as we suppressed our real needs and forgot about about them. An example:

Before we get sexually involved, we feel a kind of tension, narrowness, pressure and increased heart beat. These sensations can result in lust. If we are denied our sexual or other demands, we become scared. This happened a lot of times to most of us in our childhood and also later on. We develop artificial desires created by the market respectivelly by the conditions of society. In times of war our desire for fear is satisfied by genocide or the hunting of minorities. In peaceful times the demand for angst - a result of misguided sensations - is met by profitable industries/ products like horror movies, horror news or criminal literature among others.

We have sexual/ love relationship because we want our partners to benefit us, we long for artificial needs of social acceptance/ status/ self importance, we want to feel valuable, we want to own certain goods that might make us feel better, we compare each other, we want to be successful, we wish to be sexually attractive and to be desired, we use an abstract system of thought and judgement the same way money defines in an abstract and unreal way how much things (labor and products ) are worth.

If we deal only with new forms of love/ sexual relationships, we very likely will not change anything substantial, besides may be having more sexual fullfillment, which is a good improvement. If we want to change our lives against the system of control, try out different forms of behaviour in addition to new sexual acitivities and successfully protest against the repression within and without, we should adress all these circumstances that have a strong influence on the way we relate with each other. Where lie the wrong assumptions that create a society of egocentric "individuals" with a subjectivity that stands for a disrupted life, a distorted perception of the world, dictated by the laws of the market? We all live under these conditions and that connects us. While reflecting the sickening foundations of society, we can find out what divides us. What divides us is that, which we have in common. From there we can go on and change for the better. Poly relationships certainly are a good starting point and to some degree they already question and dissolve the common agenda of ownership.

But now lets get back to what has happened in my and our lives.

A friend of Claudia and me got involved in our relationsship and we became intimate together. This is good for all. Jan (besides he is also in a one to one relationship), helped to make Claudia and me cope in a better way. As a third person he can express the general situation of the relationship (see it as an object) between Claudia and me and so a lot of tensions were transformed. Jealousy and control, more for Claudia but also for me vanished to a big part. I mysself was surprised that I didn't feel like I lost anything or that I was in competition with Jan. Sharing each other means "gaining" new experiences. The setting was good, because Stefan is someone I get along with very well and Claudia also likes him, may be loves him, I guess. Claudia is more courages to go out and to socialize and with Jan we have a friend to hang out with and this is much more fun as being three. Or lets say, to be as too can also be nice but we need some change and more imput. I'm really excited how this all will develop.

May be this is a good advice for partners who want to enlarge their relationsships, expecially when one partner has a lot of problems with this idea. Invite an open minded good friend whose company knowingly also your partner likes and see if she/ he can resist.

Has anyone some advice what to do next? I didn't talk to Claudia about it yet but I think it should be alright if I get involved with another woman. Claudia says she loves only but I know her heart is also with Jan. I'm happy that she loves him, too.

Last edited by Imagination; 11-29-2010 at 03:47 AM. Reason: correction
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  #13  
Old 11-29-2010, 02:37 PM
Imagination Imagination is offline
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Default text revised

The matter is quite complex, there were still a few faults and imprecisions, so I revised the post:

Now it's time to tell some more. Meanwhile I started to express my emotions and thouhgts in a self confident, may be sometimes also a little selfish way. Communication with Claudia improved but then we got into heavy arguments and she started to beat me regularily. Sometime I hit her back. One day it escalated and she attacked me sexually. This was not a rape but it kind of felt like it. I almost broke up.

My personal experiences are continued at the end of this post, next I introduce the foundation for my more determined attitude.

I started to study the teachings of the socialist patients collective, partly based on Wilhelm Reich. The idea is that illness is caused by the conditions of society. Our whole life is ruled by value (money) and the power (family, state, religion, corrupted science) that makes us stay in line. Power, which is an expression of the value thought system, can't unmask, because then the fraught would become obvious. When power unmasks it becomes physical - violence - and it results in illness. In illness the mutually exclusive matters value and violence are combined. Illness is the appearance of value and violence together, only in a changed form which is illness they can unite.

When we talk of sexuality, we reside within the frame of beaurocracy and the relationship of goods rather than human beings, the human species is still to evolve. Sexuality can only take place withing the boundaries that the economic, political, social and cultural environment of a society sets. Different forms of love or sexual relationships haven't necessarily anything to do with lust or sexual activity. Exclusively by making love and by having sex in a fullfilling way, a surplus of lust can be created. It is the only desire that is productive and not destructive when it is satisfied.

There would be nothing wrong or dangerous about boundless sexuality. The limitation of genital fullfillment, cleared of all restrictions of society, is set by the sexual activity itself respectively by its objectification. While making love possibly a subject – object (of desire) relationship turns into a subject – subject relationship. On both sides subjectivity becomes objective when the object of desire is internalized. The object no longer is (only) object of desire, but it becomes part of the subject. In all other cases (drives), the fulfillment of the need don't lead to a union, we still suffer from subjectivity respectively the flaw that goes with it. The objectification of the other fails, it has only the function to be incorporated into a formal subjectivity. For example, when we eat, the sensation of hunger, a reluctance or unpleasure, is gone for the moment, but there is no additional lust created, no union, no real-ization comes up, only the need to eat will come up again.

Because of the division between subject and object talk and activities that are related to sexuality can be intensely influenced by the rules of the capitalist programming (see above). To a large extent life is organized according to mind control. Second hand needs are created and exploited, as we suppressed our real needs and forgot about about them. An example:

Before we get sexually involved, we feel a kind of tension, narrowness, pressure and increased heart beat. These sensations can result in lust. If we are denied our sexual or other needs, a sexual back pressure develops and the tension, narrowness and so on remain, and this scares us (and very likely results in body armoring and frequently in different illnesses). This happened a lot of times to most of us in our childhood and also later on. We develop artificial desires created by the market respectivelly by the conditions of society. A sexually crippled society can only by the enjoyment of fear have sensations that are similar to pre - sexual experiences. In times of war our desire for fear turns into a collective mass psychosis and sado-maso violence that is satisfied by genocide or the hunting of minorities. In peaceful times the demand for angst - a result of misguided sensations - is met by profitable industries/ products like horror movies, horror news or criminal literature among others. Religion and morals are other compensations for the original fear that is created by parental prohibition of movement and sexual expression (the prohibition is sexualized). We want our parents to remain objects of love. Therefor we suppress the memory of the parents as the cause of frustration and instead admire the holy family or adopt morals. The fear as well as the love to the latter are of sexual origion.

We have unfulfilled sexual/ love relationship because we want our partners – in a way our parents did before- to love and benefit us, we long for artificial needs of social acceptance (by meeting morals)/ status/ self importance, we want to feel valuable, we want to own certain goods that might make us feel better, we compare each other, we want to be successful, we wish to be sexually attractive and to be desired, we use an abstract system of thought and judgement the same way money defines in an abstract and unreal way how much things (labor and products ) are worth.

If we deal only with new forms of love/ sexual relationships (sexual reformation movements), we won't change change anything substantial. It has nothing to do with sexuality itself. On the other hand accomplishing (complete) sexual fullfillment or ecstasy always is directed against the repression of authorities. All aspects connected with these activities are political and revolutionary. People that from childhood on had learned to recogize their needs for self-production = their sexual needs would be immune to manipulations of the system. A society without sexual repression would be a free society. If we want to change our lives against the system of control, try out different forms of behaviour and successfully protest against the repression within and without, we should adress all the circumstances that have an influence on the way we relate with each other. Where lie the wrong assumptions that create a society of egocentric "individuals" with a subjectivity that stands for a disrupted life, a distorted perception of the world, dictated by the laws of the market? We all live under these conditions and that connects us. While reflecting the sickening foundations of society, we can find out what divides us. What divides us is that, which we have in common. From there we can go on and change for the better.

But now lets get back to what has happened in my and our lives.

A friend of Claudia and me got involved in our relationsship and we became intimate together. This is good for all. Jan (besides he is also in a one to one relationship), helped to make Claudia and me cope in a better way. As a third person he can express the general situation of the relationship (see it as an object) between Claudia and me and so a lot of tensions were transformed. Jealousy and control, more for Claudia but also for me vanished to a big part. I mysself was surprised that I didn't feel like I lost anything or that I was in competition with Jan. Sharing each other means "gaining" new experiences. The setting was good, because Stefan is someone I get along with very well and Claudia also likes him, may be loves him, I guess. Claudia is more courages to go out and to socialize and with Jan we have a friend to hang out with and this is much more fun as being two. Or lets say, to be as two can also be nice but we need some change and more imput. I'm really excited how this all will develop.

May be this is a good advice for partners who want to enlarge their relationsships, expecially when one partner has a lot of problems with this idea. Invite an open minded good friend whose company knowingly also your partner likes and see if she/ he can resist.

Has anyone some advice what to do next? I didn't talk to Claudia about it yet but I think it should be alright if I get involved with another woman. Claudia says she loves only but I know her heart is also with Jan. I'm happy that she loves him, too.

Last edited by Imagination; 11-29-2010 at 04:59 PM. Reason: correction
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  #14  
Old 11-30-2010, 08:09 PM
Imagination Imagination is offline
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Default Social repression, sexuality and polyamory

Those who didn't read my thesis yet, should do this first (see below). My recent personal experiences can be read in the post before.

Certainly the question arises if polyamory is just a sexual reform movement or more. Of course it is not "free love" of the 60s or 70s that took place when the SPK book (Dokumentation 3) was written. Polyamory means a lot of talk and considering learned thought, emotion and behaviour patterns. They have to be named, questioned and cared for, otherwise polyamori won't work. It's interesting that lots of artists, thinkers or libertarian characters lived what we might call polyamori today even before the 60s. What the book says is, that people who question and change their social and sexual behaviour thoroughly and therefor achieve a release of their body pressures at the same time come into conflict with power structures, instititons...,because rather free people won't accept the conditions we live in nowadays.
What I can say from my experiences, which isn't even very much, that just by the fact alone that more than two people are involved in a relationship changes happen, inhibitions are released and the reality we live in is questioned. If we don't talk openly about that, probably a triad or something like that won't last very long.or it won't be very satisfying. If we would be free allready, we could just live boundless sexuality, but the way things are, this won't work due to our inhibitions and concepts based on deception. We'll come into conflict with our own inadequcies? as well a with the manipulated outside world. I believe that multiple relationsships are a good setting to become aware – objectify and become subjects while looking at each other - and discuss these problems of society. Not by chance the nuclear family is the pillar of the state.

Newcomers like me and all others enjoy the (sexual) free world, don't be afraid and follow your intuition. Love, Imagination

I hope now, that this is the last edition of the thesis (I've worked on the fifth chapter):


Social repression, sexuality and polyamory

I started to study the teachings of the socialist patients collective, partly based on Wilhelm Reich. The idea is that illness is caused by the conditions of society. Our whole life is ruled by value (money) and the power (family, state, religion, health care, military, education corrupted science) that makes us stay in line. Power, which is an expression of the value thought system, can't unmask, because then the fraught would become obvious. When power unmasks it becomes physical - violence - and it results in illness. In illness the mutually exclusive matters value and violence are combined. Illness is the appearance of value and violence together, only in a changed form which is illness they can unite.

When we talk of sexuality, we reside within the frame of beaurocracy and the relationship of goods rather than human beings, the human species is still to evolve. Sexuality can only take place withing the boundaries that the economic, political, social and cultural environment of a society sets. Different forms of love or sexual relationships haven't necessarily anything to do with lust or sexual activity. Exclusively by making love and by having sex in a fullfilling way, a surplus of lust can be created. It is the only desire that is productive and not destructive when it is satisfied.

There would be nothing wrong or dangerous about boundless sexuality. The limitation of genital fullfillment, cleared of all restrictions of society, is set by the sexual activity itself respectively by its objectification. While making love possibly a subject – object (of desire) relationship turns into a subject – subject relationship. On both sides subjectivity becomes objective when the object of desire is internalized. The object no longer is (only) object of desire, but it becomes part of the subject. In all other cases (drives), the fulfillment of the need don't lead to a union, we still suffer from subjectivity respectively the flaw that goes with it. The objectification of the other fails, it has only the function to be incorporated into a formal subjectivity. For example, when we eat, the sensation of hunger, a reluctance or unpleasure, is gone for the moment, but there is no additional lust created, no union, no real-ization comes up, only the need to eat will come up again.

Because of the division between subject and object talk and activities that are related to sexuality can be intensely influenced by the rules of the capitalist programming (see above). To a large extent life is organized according to mind control. Second hand needs are created and exploited, as we suppressed our real needs and forgot about about them. An example:

Before we get sexually involved, we feel a kind of tension, narrowness, sexual back pressure and increased heart beat. While experiencing lust the pressure is released. If we are denied our sexual or other needs like movement – this starts in early childhood – we develop a disposition for reacting with fear. Precisely it's a disposition for drawing our energy from the peripheral parts of the body to the centre, which causes the feeling of pressure and narrowness, and at the same time fear comes up. This is an inward movement (unproductive) while lust is an outward movement (productive). A sexually crippled society can only by the enjoyment of fear have sensations that are similar to pre - sexual experiences (tension.) In extraordinary times like war our desire for fear can turn into a state permitted collective mass psychosis and sado-maso violence that is satisfied by genocide or the hunting of minorities. In peaceful times the demand for angst is met by profitable industries/ products like horror movies, horror news or criminal literature among others. To summarize this chapter so far, one could say: For the inidividual there is a compulsion to intergrate into a power structure directed against its own demand for a fulfilled life. The same power structure offers needs and satisfactions which the individual dependents upon existentially. Starting at early childhood we can see how those fear breeding structures work and what devices they use: For example Religion and morals are compensations for the original fear that is created by parental prohibition of movement and of sexual expression (the prohibition is sexualized). Despite their cruelty the child wants - and needs - his parents to remain objects of love. Therefor it suppress the memory of the parents as the cause of frustration and instead admires the holy family or adopts morals. Thus religion and morals are results of suppressed sexuality.

We have unfulfilled sexual/ love relationship because we want our partners – in a way our parents did before- to love and benefit us, we long for artificial needs of social acceptance (by meeting morals)/ status/ self importance, we want to feel valuable, we want to own certain goods that might make us feel better, we compare each other, we want to be successful, we wish to be sexually attractive and to be desired, we use an abstract irrational system of thought and judgement (for example religion, morals or bureaucracy) the same way money defines in an abstract and unreal way how much things (labor and products ) are worth.

If we deal only with new forms of love/ sexual relationships (sexual reformation movements), we won't change change anything substantial. It has nothing to do with sexuality itself. On the other hand accomplishing (complete) sexual fullfillment or ecstasy always is directed against the repression of authorities. All aspects connected with these activities are political and revolutionary. People that from childhood on had learned to recogize their needs for self-production = their sexual needs would be immune to manipulations of the system. A society without sexual repression would be a free society. If we want to change our lives against the system of control, try out different forms of behaviour and successfully protest against the repression within and without, we should adress all the circumstances that have an influence on the way we relate with each other. Where lie the wrong assumptions that create a society of egocentric "individuals" with a subjectivity that stands for a disrupted life, a distorted perception of the world. How is the market and how are abstract values $€ represented in our minds? We all live under these conditions and that connects us. While reflecting the sickening foundations of society, we can find out what divides us and objectify what is going on. What divides us is that, which we have in common. From there we can go on and change for the better.

Now I can go to sleep and be happy

Last edited by Imagination; 12-01-2010 at 01:05 AM. Reason: addition
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  #15  
Old 11-10-2011, 01:37 PM
Imagination Imagination is offline
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Default Don't

How to turn a monogamous relationsship into an poly relationship or a friendship? I wasn't on this page for quite a while. After what has happened in the meantime, I clearly answer "don't". It doesn't work, if not all persons involved are interested in a polyamorous relationship.

Apart from that, for me it was a very good decision to go for polyamory. I feel much better since then, more free.
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Old 11-10-2011, 02:10 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Default

Whatever happened to the girl who used to beat you and you used to beat her? That sounds horrible.
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

A standing prick hath no conscience. --Bill Shakespeare

me: Mags, female, pansexual, 60, poly-dating, and loving and living with
miss pixi, female, pansexual, poly, 38
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  #17  
Old 11-11-2011, 03:01 PM
Imagination Imagination is offline
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Default Your freedom is my freedom

I wanted to stay in touch with her, we planned to meet about 5 times and each time she didn't show up and on the phone she made it clear, that she isn't really interested (and irritated) in having contact with me , if I don't agree trying again another steady mono relationship with her. I feel sorry for her, but I won't and don't want to get into the same stressful kind of love affair again. Lots of people say, that she is mentally ill.

My opinion is, that every sickness (mental and physical) is an expression of the sick conditions of society. We all are sick and we are patients in a (medical) system that segregates between the sick and the - supposed - healthy: to be healthy means to be able to do wage work, to function in favor of accumulation and profit... of value and possession, to exploit oneself and others (capitalism: production = destruction...every human is productive, all action is productive) or in other words to be inhibited. The sick don't quite fit into this concept. The problem is, that noone wants to be sick and everyone wants to be healthy and we compete with each other to fullfill this ideal.

We all have an antagony inside of us, our thoughts, feelings and needs are very contradictionary, because whatever happens - including relationships - is dictated by the priority of trade-value and not by our true needs. So it's no wonder why some people lose their minds and feel helpless, we all do in one way or the other. They feel afraid of being influenced and attacked by vague and powerful forces. It's the truth, we're being programmed and manipulated to suppress our true will and being pressed into a life of indirectness, of little intensity and joy and we are reminded of this - and we remind each other - every day, by the nuclear family, by education, by the mass media, by wage work and a million more institutions and manifestations of so called civilized society (wars are being fought every moment for profit and predominance between armed forces and on the personal level).

There is a problem when a partner had past experiences, a personal history - a reflection of the culture we live in - which result in an extremely distorted view of interrelationships and in a distorted protest against society. Then she projects those experiences on me, who is confused, too, like everyone is.

I'm a potential saviour for her and also a potential thread. I tried to help her, to comfort her, to make her understand. But I guess I wasn't strong enough (or I was too little persons). Here sometimes effective attempts to manipulate me into obeying her made things even more difficult. I think a minimum of three people, like in polyamory, is necessary to work on conflicts like that. The involvement of a friend (described earlier), showed that. Unfortunately, he didn't care very much about my girl friend. Polyamory is one step, but a group of people who are deeply and compassionately (be it sexual or not) involved with each other can take care of everyone, no matter how big the trouble might be. All this only works when we are really open, honest, loving, respectful and responsible, like it is suggested in polyamory. As soon as people start to hide somthing, when their is ignorance, neglect, or when some weaker person is not paid attention to, all are affected by it. Those competetive, deceiving and harmful patterns of society we should transcend. With Claudia, I tried to do that but I didn't succeed.

Another factor, that made everything much more difficult was, that her mother lured her into a mental hospital. They tell her, that all her symptoms are just individual problems and that she should adopt to what is called normal - but what is normal is destructive in reality. They repress her expression, including the progressive side of her protest. She has a very sensitive perception of the environment, which is good for her and which can show her the true core of her conspiracy concoctions. I could go on for hours about that, how I tried to save her from those agents of control, which mainly work with harmful, and mind restricting chemicals, that lead to further confusion. I also tried to protect her from her mother, who approved of these methods, because it gave her power and controll over her rebelling daughter.

At least, in sommer Claudia found a flat, where she lives on her own. I still have a strong feeling for her in my heart and I hope that sometimes we'll connect again. All I and we can do now, is send her the love from our hearts and wish, that she has loving people around her. I might call her again, but I don't know how we can become friends again under these circumstances. Do you have an idea?

Wilhelm Reich did a lot of work concerning the things I have mentioned here, but he didn't question the medical system as such. The socialist patients collective/
patients' front for more then forty years now is a proof, that all mental and physical sickness in a collective setting can be helped, and that a life without symptoms that need treatment and without medical doctors (except socialized doctors) is possible. Love and sexuality aren't free, as mankind isn't free (if it would be, in polyamory as well, all the talk and the working on relationships wouldn't be necessary). However, taking this into account, we can have better relationships and we can be open to alternatives to the mainstream models.

Last edited by Imagination; 11-11-2011 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 11-13-2011, 09:03 PM
Imagination Imagination is offline
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Default Wilhelm Reich

Very recommended reading: "The emotional plague" by Wilhelm Reich:http://anarchy.org.au/?page_id=9 (also very interesting regarding polyamory)

Here an addition to my first text:
Definition of the medical establishment: to be healthy means to be able to do wage work, to function in favor of accumulation and profit of a few (of about 3% of the population who own the means of production). A capitalist, e.g. an owner of a factory also is called sick, when she can't work, when she can't manage her company any more e.g. But since she doesn't have to sell her manpower for her livelihood, she can afford to be sick/ unable to work. She can pay someone else to do her job.
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