Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > General Poly Discussions

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 10-07-2010, 09:20 PM
Ready2Fly Ready2Fly is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 45
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonberry View Post
I always wonder if they are aware that there are other options. To some extent, I wonder the same for people in monogamous relationships. Sometimes, they had to choose between two people, and think they made the best choice, and I wonder, do they know they could have made the choice to have both? See what I mean?
Totally! I'm so saddened when someone in the monogamous world loves two people and feels compelled to decide between them. (Sometimes people even will tell them that it's impossible to love two people, and so they must not really love either, and should therefore dump both. Ugh!) I think in a lot of cases, if the three of them knew there was another option, that they would happily take it. I discovered poly by making just such a decision and immediately recognizing what a devastating thing it was to do, both to me and my unfairly dumped lover.

Of course these women grew up in a culture that tolerates/embraces polygamy, and that is certain to affect their choice. But all of our choices are affected somehow by our culture. None of us can fully divorce ourselves from outside influences on our choices: in fact, that would leave us with very little information on which to base the choice at all! I'm pretty sure, though, that in this case, the wives are aware of the monogamy option.

Last edited by Ready2Fly; 10-07-2010 at 09:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-07-2010, 10:19 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,367
Default

What I meant wasn't "they might not be aware of the monogamy option!" but "they don't seem to be aware that poly can go both ways, that there are ways other than OPP".
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-08-2010, 05:12 AM
Vinccenzo Vinccenzo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 286
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ready2Fly View Post
But that's still a choice that the earthbound partner makes, to open the relationship in that particular way. That partner still has the option to say, "No, I'd prefer you didn't have zero-gravity sex, because I can never have that. Let's do something we can both enjoy."
As long as there's consent, and no abuse, I really don't think we can analyze the legitimacy of relationships based on how someone came to the decision to consent. That's entirely up to the individual and no one else.
Having never seen the show, I have no idea how each person came to agree to it. I have a great many of very fundamental relatives. They are not of the sect to take on many wives, but the choices they make are heavily influenced by the information their church and pastor decides is "godly and true" and very little else gets considered. Right down to instances of whether or not public schooling ruins girls for marriage and deciding to educate them at home by their mother who didn't finish school either. Choices are made by what one thinks is their pool of options. Perhaps this extremism isn't present in the show being discussed, but I've seen first had how a religious instruction can make some people make a decision, not because its what they want but what id expected of them. Knowing that, I just wonder if it truly qualifies as free choice.

Such as a "honey, God made zero gravity sex for me; not you. Would you second guess god and deny me that which he intends?"

Having not seen the show, I don't speak for it, but recognize the darker spectrum of this possible.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-08-2010, 03:47 PM
Vinccenzo Vinccenzo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 286
Default

So I watched 3 episodes as that was what was available in the OnDemand listing.

All three of the women had conditioning prior to these marriages by being raised in polygamist families and following a religion that promotes polygamy.

So what is known about Mormonism?

That a woman is brought to salvation through marriage and he earns her passage to heaven. There is more to it than that. Heaven is your own planet to populate.

Bring raised to believe this, denying another woman from marrying your husband mean you're maybe causing her to never see heaven. And leaving him if he goes ahead and takes another wife means you give up your passage to heaven. This faith also instructs that a woman's teen sons are right to spiritually counsel their mothers by the age of 13. The women are for instructing only their female children and sons under 13. One of the things I noticed in the womens' interactions with their daughters was quite a bit of "honey are you SURE that's what you want to do? Are you SURE? What about doing this instead?" This instilling of doubt in one's own decision making. Never once did I see this approach used on the boys. If one of the boys began to cut up and get rowdy, dad was called in.

What I did find to be positive in this is that the women relied on each other and did truly care for and value each other. They wanted their sisters. And in this family, the husband said he wouldn't marry anyone if the others were not on board with it. At times they didn't seem to want the fourth, and grew very upset. I did not see how he assures them or what they do to negotiate the fourth. All he said was that he'd never dealt with the intense emotions with the others like what he was feeling for this fourth. He did not say this in front of his wives, but it was obvious enough that even the older daughters said something about it. I was also pleased to see another difference between them and the norm for the very large Mormon community 5 miles from where I live. It was one of the older sons who made breakfast almost every morning - albeit only for his full siblings.

They had mini interviews with them and they spoke of pain and uncertainty - how this was addressed or attended to was not shared. They just went on with the process. It was also touched on that none of the three were wanting a fourth being added but that the husband's actions leading up to the decision clued them in that something was going on. He did not discuss it much prior to courting this woman. I think maybe the first wife was more aware of it than the other two. There seemed to be a chain of command thing going on where he confides mostly with the first wife and the others hear what is going on through her.

I did like how the wives looked for the positives of this arrangement, but one disturbed me. I couldn't put my finger on it till this morning. The fear that something would happen to one of them (death) and that they were blessed that there would be other wives to care for the children. It was such a point of anxiety for one she began to tear up. All I could wonder is "well if I die, my husband is there to care for our kid. Why is this not a consideration in this family?" I get that for them, there is a whole pack of kids involved, but the one who vocalized this the most only had one child. It made me wonder why her husband was not considered a candidate for this with her 14 year old daughter?

Three incomes in this house with a potential that the fourth wife will bring another; and this is not all that unusual in LDS Mormonism. Perhaps it is more unusual in Fundamental Mormonism? I don't know well enough to guess at what is common in that arena. But the one with the least amount of education had been home schooling the kids until five years ago. And now that they are in an external school, it is one that promotes Fundamental Mormonism and polygamy.

This is what I mean when I ask is a choice in such a saturation of ideals really qualified to be truly a free choice when the options you are presented with all point you in one direction?
I was given hope by the one daughter who said she would not choose this for herself. It isn't that I find the choices made in this show to be WRONG, just that I was glad to see indication of acceptance for different views on some level.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 10-08-2010, 04:29 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,868
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinccenzo View Post
So I watched 3 episodes as that was what was available in the OnDemand listing.

All three of the women had conditioning prior to these marriages by being raised in polygamist families and following a religion that promotes polygamy.

So what is known about Mormonism?

That a woman is brought to salvation through marriage and he earns her passage to heaven. There is more to it than that. Heaven is your own planet to populate.
While I don't disagree with what you have said or the conclusion implied.

The same could in fact be said for monogamy. ...essentially the same type of religious brainwashing has been in affect for far longer on almost everyone who has been brought up with monogamy to be the end goal. Of course, is it brainwashing when "everyone" embraces the religious norm?

Am I justifying the polygamy or trying to say this is a good situation to be advertising and which in the end will represent polyamory...no its not really. Just looking at it from another POV, which the general public would inherently disagree with me on anyways.

This is always brought up - but how do you give someone the ability to make truly unbiased decisions in their choices for religion, relationships etc. I have my opinions but its obviously not the place of this thread.

Great breakdown Vinc.

_______________________________

My personal take, its cool to see on tv, but I think a polygamist view based in a situation as described by vinc is a very poor way to represent polyamory. In the end anything who is poly will be compared to that. I have done this fight with friends and family now. They just cannot seperate the two, which I imagine is fairly common in the mainstream.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 10-08-2010, 06:05 PM
ray's Avatar
ray ray is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 819
Default

Just to be clear, "LDS Mormonism" is mainstream mormonism where polygamy is completely unacceptable. It's one man and one woman made very clear by Boyd K. Packer's rant against homosexuality @ the recent general conference. Fundamentalist Mormonism or the FLDS church is the more radical offshoot where polygamy is accepted and encouraged and in some cases forced.

Oh and one of the wives was not raised in a polygamist family.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 10-08-2010, 06:23 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,367
Default

I think we're starting to debate about religion more than polygamy here.
Which I guess makes sense... But I think it's a different debate.
I'm not religious, and religious can make me uneasy and uncomfortable on many levels. But I would say, as far as religious polygamy goes, they're doing it the way it should be done: with love and respect.
So that's definitely a good representation of polygamy for the general public, to cause them to think about it a bit more.

However, I would also love a show focusing on a polyamorous family, without the religious context, and with a situation that would seem more "balanced" and "fair". Or reversed, as in, a woman with several men. I get annoyed that people seem to think of polygyny as the only form of polygamy, and I wish there was more awareness or the broad range and variety of intimate network possibilities.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 10-08-2010, 11:25 PM
Edward Edward is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 40
Default

Small steps, Tonberry. I'm old enough to remember when homosexuality was listed as a sexual perversion by the psychiatrists. Getting people to accept a different kind of relationship from the ones they commonly encounter (and most probably were raised in) is a slow process.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 10-08-2010, 11:32 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,868
Default

the difference being...

homosexuality is not a sexual perversion

polygamy can easily be tied to religious groups and in turn so can polyamory. Very different fight.

I am trying to look at it from the outside in, or trying to, and you have a tough sell to separate religious based polygamy from non-religious based polygamy. Not discussing the religious implications of that, in regards to such a show like this, is like burying our heads in the sand
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 10-09-2010, 12:05 AM
Rachelina Rachelina is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 34
Default

There is a short film (it's about 10 minutes long) called Sister Wife that offers a completely different look at Mormon polygamy. It focuses on one woman who shares her husband with her biological sister. She talks about how horribly painful the jealousy can be, but says that ultimately being able to share her husband makes her feel like a goddess. I cried and cried while watching it. I certainly don't have much in common with Mormons but the emotional issues are exactly the same as what I'm going through now (trying to learn to share my husband). The woman is so strong and beautiful and I came away from it inspired. If anyone wants to see it, it's included in issue 9 of the short film collection Wholphin, which is available on Netflix.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:03 AM.