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  #41  
Old 10-10-2010, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit View Post
So I'd suggest if you want to continue to paint with the broad brush you just accept that you could be painting some wonderful, loving people out of your life. It's one choice - nothing more.

GS
Great points GS. I definitely know and like some people who swing. Why? Because I got to know them and don't define them by that one aspect. The thing is, I'm usually not very interested in meeting and getting to know new people so ultimately I don't feel a sense of loss.

That being said, this is more about the environment, lots of sex positive and openly sexual people partying, drinking, enjoying themselves the way they have a right to. I just don't want to see all the flirting, bumping and grinding and drunken eyeballing of potential partners. It's just not a healthy environment for me. Redpepper and Polynerdist will have a much better time as they are more comfortable in that type of environment. Redpepper will have a better time because she won't have to worry about me getting weirded out or pissed off at all the flirting. I'm way to easy to trigger so, like avoiding dark alleys which may get me into trouble, I avoid other places and things that make my reptilian brain take over.
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  #42  
Old 10-11-2010, 10:03 PM
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Yea Mon - I agree from that angle.
For the record, the swing 'scene' was never something that attracted me. Kind of surprising considering I'm a major voyeur !
But for I don't think it's the open sex that bothered me as much as the drunkenness and general ignorant, less than genuine (I hope!) behavior in general. I don't like being around drunken people - even if they are cute and naked
And I always felt bad for those who couldn't let their inner self loose without a little help from some external substance. I want to know you the way you are - not some mixed up version of who you might wish you were.
But that's just me - odd bird that I am..........

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  #43  
Old 10-12-2010, 04:44 AM
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I think it's a matter of detaching sex from feelings.
If sex is tied to feelings, it might seem weird for you to have one without the other.
I wonder if it's always about "detaching" sex from feelings in general, or if it's rather sometimes about different feelings "attached" to sex. Perhaps, for some people, sex doesn't bring out their feelings of love and romance, but rather their feelings of thrill and excitement. Like riding a roller-coaster: it makes some people terrified and others feel exhilarated.

Sex is such a big deal in our culture, it's taboo and kind of overrated. I'm mean sure, sex is great, it's awesome. But lots of things are awesome, and lots of them are as great as sex. It's not the be-all-end-all of existence.

Between two people in love, it's a wonderful way to share that connection. But so is going for a walk, baking bread together, going for drinks, even fixing a leaking toilet.... none of those are inherently romantic activities, but it depends on the person you're with. I've done all those things with friends and it was just fun and social. So why can't sex be the same way?

Edit: I've never fixed a toilet with a friend. My husband and I did it once, when he accidentally broke a big chunk off the bowl because he figured that a stuck toilet-seat bolt would best be removed by hitting it with a hammer... only he missed and hit the porcelain. Then, for some reason, he decided to flush the toilet and suddenly water was exploding everywhere. I still can't think of that moment without cracking up. This was right when we first moved out together, and quite honestly, having [clean] toilet water splashing all over your first apartment bathroom is an excellent bonding activity which I highly recommend to any new couple!!
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Last edited by SchrodingersCat; 10-12-2010 at 06:42 AM.
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  #44  
Old 10-12-2010, 07:14 AM
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PN put this up on his FB status update the other day... "anyone have any thoughts on the relationship between judging others and trying to control them to get them to do what we think they should do?" Many people wrote in at length about this questions and their answer to it. PN has a way of getting people to open up. The likes I've never seen. It made me realize something. In regards to that and the reaction I have been getting from my NS boyfriend about the halloween party I might be going to that my swinger friend is putting on.

It seems that some people see judgment as a way to attempt to control others whereas I judge out of concern for others because I compare their experience with my own. This misunderstanding of the way I judge has meant that my NSBF is surprised that I want to go to such a party because there might be people in states of being half naked and flirting with others... he is surprised because I might be offended and have reacted strongly to swinging in the past because of my own hang ups.

Why would I object? I don't think I have objected out of trying to control or out of judgment for no reason. I have been concerned and don't know why, so I discovered why and then dealt with it and now feel far more healthy around the whole issue of sport sex. I just don't want to participate and have no need to. My need for thrill seeking and accomplishment in this area is fulfilled.

On PN's fb status update I got the feeling that people thought that to judge others was because we don't have compassion and I think that is true. It's hard to have compassion for swingers if you don't know any or care to. But really there is another kind of judging and that is in order to help ourselves make sense of our world.

I wrote on his update, "judging to me is about about expressing concerns and talking about personal opinion. After all how are we going to figure our shit out if we don't talk about it and judge the actions of others against our own. It's when... one sits in their shit and doesn't attempt to get out of it that bothers me. If it takes judging, then so be it. judging and controlling are completely different to me. I don't judge because I want to control and really if people think that then they don't really know me and perhaps should look at their own stuff around that belief....."

and

"I agree with the link to compassion if we are not to judge, but I still think that isn't the answer to it all. I think one can still be compassionate and have an opinion about someones actions and it come off as judging... sometimes judgment is in the way something is received rather than how the words were expressed. It's still a really good idea to check and see if what was said was meant to be a judgment as a way of trying to reach compassion, an opinion based on a persons own experiences and therefore concern or a way to keep sitting in ones shit and not budging. Really, if we didn't openly judge others then I don't think we would ever understand one another or accept one another. I would take someone who judges me openly over someone who says nothing any day."

Mono I think that you are trying to figure it all out for yourself and I am so glad that you have chosen to admit that rather than pretend you don't care and are sitting in your shit about. Sometimes people sit in their shit until you they are uncomfortable and still sit in it and blame their lack of comfort on those that they judge. People seem to create so much negativity by blaming others for how they feel rather than trying to figure out why they are uncomfortable with others. I'm so glad you don't do that.
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Last edited by redpepper; 10-12-2010 at 07:20 AM.
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  #45  
Old 10-12-2010, 03:41 PM
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This is a really great post, RP. There IS a big difference between judging a situation selectively, for one's own benefit or the concern you have for others, and judging out of fear in order to blame or control other people.

I know that many people, myself included, can often lump ANY kind of judgment in with "desire to control or blame". For myself, this is due to past relationships where I *was* blamed and judged quite frequently by my partners. Your post has given me just a bit more clarity on and awareness of this and I wanted to thank you!

As an aside, one of the most beautiful things I've learned from being polyamorous is how each person I am in a relationship with is different from each other person. It may seem obvious, but people tend to get lazy and follow patterns and assumptions from past relationship when in fact they are not applicable to a current relationship. This goes for friendship, as well as partnership.

Ok, now back to your regular thread...
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  #46  
Old 10-18-2010, 02:21 PM
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I guess that I feel that swinging is one form of responsible non-monogamy if it is done well. Like any other it can be done badly, and there are predators out there who use the label as a way to deal with their own selfish, manipulative needs.

While I haven't actually tried swinging, I did go through a phase on casual sex outside of my relationship (with the consent of my partner). Often these were one-time deals with friends where we were both "in need", but once it was a session of sport sex with a woman I had chatted to on the Internet for a long while. I think that if I had really decided it was for me, then swinging would have been a very legitimate lifestyle choice for me.

But I decided it wasn't, and I have thought long and hard since then about why not. I have good friends who are, or have been swingers, and I enjoy their company and can definitely appreciate their ability to swing.

Good sex, for me, has such a strong mental component. Without that it's just "Insert Tab A into Slot B" - enjoyable for what it is, but missing so much of what I want out of sex. During the times I was having sex with folks for whom I didn't have that mental bond, it almost felt like I was apart from myself and looking at myself from outside my body. I felt like I was watching me in a porn video.

One friend of mine said that I was a very strong empath, in that I feed off the energy of others. I think that this reflects very well my attitude towards sex - if I don't have that mental connection with someone, or that person can't feed back to me the sexual energies that are going on inside them, and I don't feel that what I am giving in terms of feedback is being received, then the experience doesn't seem complete to me. Doing it just for myself may get me off, but it feels like McDonalds where what I really enjoy is a degustation from a talented chef.

Part of me really wishes I could enjoy casual sex more, for the varied experiences that it would offer, but I just don't think that I am wired that way, in the same way that I know that I am not wired for monogamy. But I still see both as highly legitimate options for relationships.
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  #47  
Old 10-18-2010, 04:52 PM
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Redpepper recently posted about a party that is specific in who can attend despite not being a swinger party. Single women and "selected single men" is a statement that irritates me.

When I hear that it makes me think of two things. That men are considered predatory as opposed to women, and that the people at the party are more capable to deal/accept predatory women as opposed to a predatory man.

Basically any vagina is welcome because we can deal with that and the more holes the better, but a rogue penis is too threatening to our women and men.

Sadly I find this reiterates my sense that women are chattel and used for bartering.
I don't think this would bother me accept for the possibility that I will pull back from more social opportunities solely based on one aspect of who people are.

I think as long as the events are purely social and nothing to do with sexuality I would be ok and therefore could get to know people on other levels, but unfortunately for me it seems as though everything is attached to some label.

I guess I need to accept that I am sexually tolerant in that I'm not going to run through the streets with a torch trying to burn the sinners, but I am not sex positive in the activities I want to participate in. I find this isolating and a bit worrisome. I thrive on alone time so isolation doesn't bother me but it makes me miss the comfort of my old community and that takes away from my social enjoyment.
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Last edited by MonoVCPHG; 10-18-2010 at 04:55 PM.
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  #48  
Old 10-18-2010, 05:22 PM
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Luckily Redpepper has PN and Derby who are much more sex positve than me and therefore I don't feel pressured to attend such events. I do however have to accept the consequences of my choices. The only thing negative I can foresee would be creating a distance betwen me and Redpepper if I start cocooning from alot of stuff because she has other partners to participate with. Distance = lack of connection. Lack of connection for a mono is a bad thing. It creates the possibility of a new connection. Gotta keep an eye on that!
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  #49  
Old 10-18-2010, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
Redpepper recently posted about a party that is specific in who can attend despite not being a swinger party. Single women and "selected single men" is a statement that irritates me.

When I hear that it makes me think of two things. That men are considered predatory as opposed to women, and that the people at the party are more capable to deal/accept predatory women as opposed to a predatory man.

Basically any vagina is welcome because we can deal with that and the more holes the better, but a rogue penis is too threatening to our women and men.
Well, sadly, there *are* more male predators than women. Look at rape statistics. Even if there is low reporting of F on M rape (because of male shame), it's still really skewed towards male on female rape.

Another thing that bothers me more about swinging is its homophobia, which reflects the larger culture. Men enjoy watching FF action. So FF action is okey dokey. Straight men think bi or gay male sex is gross, or they are afraid of being approached by other men (why? they just need to say no). So, no MM action allowed at swingers parties.

Quote:
Sadly I find this reiterates my sense that women are chattel and used for bartering.
Yes, this was brought home to me by a thread on here. The men at swingers parties are old, ugly and out of shape. "Their" women keep themselves reasonably fit and groomed. A woman will go to these parties so her husband can shag other attractive women, and allow herself to be fucked by men she isnt attracted to, to please her husband (maybe b/c she fears losing her meal ticket, or social approval and status, or fear for her children's welfare, or?). Ugh. How disgusting.
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  #50  
Old 10-18-2010, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
Redpepper recently posted about a party that is specific in who can attend despite not being a swinger party. Single women and "selected single men" is a statement that irritates me.

When I hear that it makes me think of two things. That men are considered predatory as opposed to women, and that the people at the party are more capable to deal/accept predatory women as opposed to a predatory man.

Basically any vagina is welcome because we can deal with that and the more holes the better, but a rogue penis is too threatening to our women and men.
Sadly I find this reiterates my sense that women are chattel and used for bartering.
I don't think this would bother me accept for the possibility that I will pull back from more social opportunities solely based on one aspect of who people are.

I think as long as the events are purely social and nothing to do with sexuality I would be ok and therefore could get to know people on other levels, but unfortunately for me it seems as though everything is attached to some label.

I guess I need to accept that I am sexually tolerant in that I'm not going to run through the streets with a torch trying to burn the sinners, but I am not sex positive in the activities I want to participate in. I find this isolating and a bit worrisome. I thrive on alone time so isolation doesn't bother me but it makes me miss the comfort of my old community and that takes away from my social enjoyment.
Well that`s one way of looking at it. The other way of looking at it, is based very much on differences between the sexes.

If you don`t restrict single males, the party will be a 'sausage party'. History dictates, Men are more likely to be open and excited by the idea of a swinger party, then most single women are. Males will more readily attend. If every guy in the room that showed up, was one of the nicest guys in the world, it is STILL a sausage party.

Where as, history dictates women, especially single women, are more likely to be concerned attending such events alone. Rightly so, in some cases.

So,..to achieve balance, these restrictions are put in place. The 'sausage party' syndrome will happen almost everytime, without question. It is virtually a 100% proven formula, if it is a open party, versus a invited guest list.

This is akin to the 'poly-unicorn syndrome.' Except swingers came up with a way to achieve balance, that works for them.
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