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  #21  
Old 01-02-2013, 12:16 AM
turtleHeart turtleHeart is offline
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I can understand the caution around pregnancy with partners outside a marriage. Custody issues are complicated enough within monogamous settings. Even between my wife and I, when we were at a point where we didn't want kids for a few years we considered me getting a vasectomy and freezing sperm, going so far as to set an appointment for the surgery, but ultimately Ginko decided to opt for an IUD for simplicity of reversal.

With people outside the marriage, one girlfriend couldn't get an IUD to work for her and I don't consider condoms to be enough unless I'm ok with pregnancy, so we never had PIV sex. With another girlfriend, we use condoms plus IUD, while I'm considering going back to no PIV with anyone other than Ginko for simplicity. I enjoy non PIV sex more anyhow.

Once Ginko and I have had as many kids as we want I'll likely get a vasectomy. If we ever want more kids afterward there's the possibility of adoption, though that may be more complicated if we're openly poly.
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  #22  
Old 01-02-2013, 01:42 AM
ThatGirlInGray ThatGirlInGray is offline
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Rory already linked to a pertinent discussion on Polyamorous Misanthrope, but in case you didn't click it I'll reiterate here:

Tubals and Vasectomies are NOT 100%, especially as time passes. Sometimes couples make the mistake of thinking , "I've had a vasectomy/tubal so we don't need to worry about unplanned pregnancy." Umm, no. It's far less likely, but it IS still possible. Just something to keep in mind.
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  #23  
Old 01-02-2013, 02:39 AM
FullofLove1052 FullofLove1052 is offline
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Thank you. I actually did read it, as well as the comments. One stuck out more than anything. Quite informative. Still doesn't fully fit or sum up how I feel or what to do when morality is coming into play. I know I'm not the only poly person with morals. I know she's a human being. I know she has reproductive organs and no diagnosed issues if she were to try to conceive. Other than age and her biological clock, there are no physical road blocks. After 35, it becomes harder but not impossible. I acknowledge all of that.

We've weighed all the pros and the cons, and we know that a pregnancy can still happen, which is why being proactive, vocal, and talking about it now is of the utmost importance. Better to acknowledge it now than to be hit with a whammy down the line. Nothing but abstinence provides that guarantee. I've encountered people who have had tubals and partial hysterectomies but were still able to conceive.

The only feasible solution may be for the relationship to end. Sad as that is, I don't foresee a solution involving a child that DH fathers outside of our marriage that would work. In a mono relationship, that is sometimes enough to break down a marriage. That's my lone monogamous thought. I'm not willing to put my marriage or morals on the line, for a child I honestly would want nothing to do with. I hope this doesn't make me a bad person. It may sound cold and bloody terrible, but it's better than a child being here and me not acknowledging their presence, not wanting them in our home, and/or secretly wishing that my husband would terminate his rights, if we were to stay together. That scenario could play out a lot worse than breaking up now. I'm actively praying for clarity and seeking direction. Right now, that's all I can hope for. There will be no winner in this situation.
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  #24  
Old 01-02-2013, 03:16 AM
turtleHeart turtleHeart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FullofLove1052 View Post
Nothing but abstinence provides that guarantee. [...]

The only feasible solution may be for the relationship to end.
What about abstinence from PIV sex while enjoying everything else, as others have mentioned? Is that something your husband and girlfriend would be comfortable with for the duration of their relationship?

Your feelings don't make you a bad person. While it'd be ideal to have known and stated your feelings before you went from a V to a triad, some feelings don't become fully known until trying things out and realizing the full implications.
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  #25  
Old 01-02-2013, 03:34 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Hmm. Just wondering - what if she became involved with another man in addition to your husband, got pregnant, wasn't sure who the father was, and decided to have the child? Would you insist on knowing the paternity? Could you live with the uncertainty of not knowing? If it turned out the other guy was the father, would you be okay and accepting, maybe even play auntie, but if it was your husband's, would you really shun the child?

I am just curious. Anyway, I believe you mentioned that she's been thinking about the possibility - but has she clearly stated what she wants?
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  #26  
Old 01-02-2013, 04:29 AM
FullofLove1052 FullofLove1052 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Hmm. Just wondering - what if she became involved with another man in addition to your husband, got pregnant, wasn't sure who the father was, and decided to have the child? Would you insist on knowing the paternity? Could you live with the uncertainty of not knowing? If it turned out the other guy was the father, would you be okay and accepting, maybe even play auntie, but if it was your husband's, would you really shun the child?

I am just curious. Anyway, I believe you mentioned that she's been thinking about the possibility - but has she clearly stated what she wants?
Interesting question and scenario. I would have to know the paternity. If I didn't, in the back of my mind, I would always wonder. I know myself too well, and I'd be tempted to have the child secretly tested. I'm not into the sneaky, going behind someone's back type of action, but every time I'd look at the child, questions would be raised. If he/she turned out to be his, something in my soul would make me want to pull away. Bonds established or not, and to me, that is the worst feeling and thought. Shunning an innocent child who didn't ask to be brought into the world. If it was the other man's child, my feelings would be the polar opposite.

Here's the thing. I'd be OK with another person (e.g. an anonymous sperm donor) being the father. That's why this is baffling me so much. I'm supportive of her becoming a mother--just not to any of DH's future children. It's the oddest catch-22.

If I could pinpoint something other than our marriage and my moral standing as to why the thought of DH and her creating new life is 1000% out of the question, I might be able to reach a breakthrough. My best friend suggested seeking a poly-friendly therapist because maybe I need to see it from someone else's POV and maybe there's something else blocking the acceptance of that. At this point, I'm willing. She also posed a different scenario.

As far as her having children, it's definitely on the horizon and in the future. Last night the words, "I do want to become a mum," came out of her mouth. No time frame was given. I wasn't expecting a definitive answer regarding time such as, "Yes, I want to start TTC within 6 months to a year." We've established that she wants to. Now, the when, which is hinging on her, the three of us finding a resolution, and more importantly, God's time. It's wonderful that she is thinking about becoming a mother now. I'm genuinely elated. I love babies. She's already an amazing mother to our children, so I don't expect anything different with those that are biologically hers.
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  #27  
Old 01-02-2013, 04:36 AM
FullofLove1052 FullofLove1052 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleHeart View Post
What about abstinence from PIV sex while enjoying everything else, as others have mentioned? Is that something your husband and girlfriend would be comfortable with for the duration of their relationship?

Your feelings don't make you a bad person. While it'd be ideal to have known and stated your feelings before you went from a V to a triad, some feelings don't become fully known until trying things out and realizing the full implications.
They discussed that. It's on the list of possibilities. I suspect they will doing quite a bit more talking without me in the home for the next week. I'm going to focus on work, seek clarity, and enjoy my time on a few white sandy beaches. Taking a break from this may provide some much needed clarity for all of us. Hopefully upon my return, we may have a solution that works for everyone. *Fingers crossed*

This is definitely one of those feelings that never had the chance to arise, due to no opportunity. The opportunity has presented itself, and we are tackling it head on as opposed to sitting by and waiting for something to happen.
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  #28  
Old 01-02-2013, 05:49 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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What about adoption? And if DH freezes sperm and vasectomies - what if they want to use it for her to get pregnant by?

Keep talking it out. You guys will get there.

Demystify it and see if it helps you reach a more calm place inside yourself -- even if you find that yes, it is still a hard limit thing with you and no, not a soft limit.

Remember to breathe, pace yourself.

GG
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  #29  
Old 01-02-2013, 09:54 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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I am mostly following, although it is very alien to me because I have very different feelings on the issue, but I am a bit confused by the part about morals.

Now, I understand that you are religious, if I understood you right, and that you think marriage is sacred (you're against divorce, you wouldn't want a child with a married man). But obviously you don't believe that relationships outside of marriage are immoral, since you are in one, and condoning a second one that is just starting.

So why is the idea of children different? Especially since it's only the biological aspect, if she had a child from anyone else you would be fine with the three of you raising it as your own, it seems.
Could it be that you would feel excluded, as a child can only have two biological parents, but that if it's not your husband's either, then you're not the odd one out?

I would definitely appreciate more insight on the moral aspect of it, especially why relationships are fine but not children, and why adoptive children outside of marriage would be fine, but not biological.
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  #30  
Old 01-02-2013, 11:52 PM
FullofLove1052 FullofLove1052 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonberry View Post
I am mostly following, although it is very alien to me because I have very different feelings on the issue, but I am a bit confused by the part about morals.

Now, I understand that you are religious, if I understood you right, and that you think marriage is sacred (you're against divorce, you wouldn't want a child with a married man). But obviously you don't believe that relationships outside of marriage are immoral, since you are in one, and condoning a second one that is just starting.

So why is the idea of children different? Especially since it's only the biological aspect, if she had a child from anyone else you would be fine with the three of you raising it as your own, it seems.
Could it be that you would feel excluded, as a child can only have two biological parents, but that if it's not your husband's either, then you're not the odd one out?

I would definitely appreciate more insight on the moral aspect of it, especially why relationships are fine but not children, and why adoptive children outside of marriage would be fine, but not biological.
Excuse me in advance, but I just flew close to 10k miles, so I'm a wee bit scatter brained. I'm not done, yet. Sitting in the airport now.

Most people have different beliefs than mine. I was raised from what feels like birth that children outside of a marriage? That's just a hell no on every single front. I can even remember religion classes from my schooling and the topic arising. It's something I've always been strongly against. If I was mono, it would apply. I'm poly (hate labels), and it still applies. My morals havent changed since the day we met. It's the only monogamous thought in my brain, but it's also the one that impacts people outside of me more than any other one could.

As weird as this may sound, I try to limit my religious beliefs from interferring in my love life. I've never believed that God gives you just one soulmate in this lifetime. I have more than one soulmate. I have two that I'm romantically involved with and many that are non-romantic. (I view my best friends like non-romantic soulmates.) If having one for eternity was true, how could we explain people finding another after the untimely demise of the person they knew was their soulmate? You can't control who you fall for. That's what happened with me. I wasn't looking for love when I met her. It just happened. I could have chosen one or the other, but that option never felt right. That's how I can live with outside relationships. To this day, I still weather internal battles with my religious beliefs, my morals, and my lifestyle. This situation fits the tab of an internal battle of morality.

Crazy part? I can't ever see myself being involved more than 1-2 people. Sometimes two feels like too many, and I have to take a minute to breathe and remember that, "If they weren't meant to be in life, God wouldn't have placed them in my life." After all these years, there are still days where I feel squeamish about being intimate with more than one person. During those times, we establish intimacy without the physical side. Those are the days where my religious beliefs work overtime against me.

My marriage is definitely sacred. Children and the prospect of more are within that realm of sacredness. It is just my belief that children should only be born within a marriage. I can't tell anyone else what to feel, how they should live, or even force my beliefs on them. That's just what I live by. Thus, why I wouldn't be able to have a child with a married man. Frankly, I couldn't even be involved with another man. I don't judge anyone, but that's simply not my cup of tisane. If you do it, there's nothing wrong with it. It's not for me.

I wouldn't feel left out because I would intentionally cut myself out of their lives and have zero involvement with either. I likely wouldn't accept an adoptive child either. He would still be responsible for him/her, their emotional needs, financial needs, and doing everything a father should do. He's a stand-up kind of man. A father is not dictated just by paternity. The actions that the person does give someone the right to be more than a sperm donor. That in itself is why I don't foresee a solution involving any children outside of our marriage. Biological or adopted.

I don't think prayer is the answer. All religious roads have lead me to the same spot. Wheeling and dealing with my beliefs? Mentally, I've tried it. "Technically, if she has a child, she's doing as the bible says and is being fruitful by multiplying." Then, I hear our premarital counselor/officiating priest's prayer in my head saying, "Let this union--between this man and this woman--be fruitful. Next thing I know, I'm back at one. I'm at the point where I want to pull my hair out.

I'm hoping for a breakthrough, while I'm alone with no spouses, children, no dogs, domestic duties, and actually have a chance to process my thoughts and feelings. That's step #1.
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