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  #51  
Old 08-13-2010, 07:39 AM
jkelly jkelly is offline
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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
I think it's an interesting question when someone asks me how they should speak to me in order for their words to achieve the desired effect.
I do this IRL somtimes; it's like asking "Is there anything I can say that would make you change your mind?" in a disagreement. Sometimes it's helpful, because you might get around the idea that someone has to win the argument, and instead try to re-focus on moving things forward. Sometimes it isn't.

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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
I was taking you at your word when you said you wanted to know in good faith how people could tell me that I am making an ass out of myself.
I appreciate that! I think starting a thread devoted to it was an interesting idea.

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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
I don't think talking about the forum is "beating a dead horse" but I do think the question "what would you have us DO" is some kind of a rhetorical mobius-strip.
Nice analogy -- it looks like a tangle, but you only ever see one side. In this case, we (pretty much) only ever hear from people who are well-served by the forum (see the above), so the other side of the question doesn't really exist in the conversation. I still think it's worth trying to untangle the knot.

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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
I don't like this "people" and "some people" parrying. I would like to see naming of names and quoting from messages with examples of "how such things play out". I am probably guilty of this too, without even realizing it, so please do me this courtesy. Please be specific, even if it means "embarrassing" me.
This can be really challenging. For one thing, as you mention, it often can feel like one is randomly picking on someone to call them out when it's really a larger pattern that's problematic, although I appreciate that you're offering here that people can do that with you. For another, as you noted in the childfree thread, it doesn't make a lot of sense to set oneself up as an "expert" on a marginalised group who should get the last word, even when you're a member of that group.
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  #52  
Old 08-13-2010, 08:00 AM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by FormerUnicorn View Post
I'm a little late to the party, but I wanted to point out that the concept of a "welcoming atmosphere" is rather subjective. I think inclusivity is important too, and I understand what you're saying about marginalization, but I have a confession to make:

Your posts made me feel unwelcome. Judged. Like why should I even find this place good and constructive when it has so many obvious flaws.

It's just one of many, but here's the first post of yours that I read (Edited for brevity, not content):



I'm not challenging the validity of the points that you made here, but the tone in which you couch your distaste for the forum was one of the biggest turnoffs I have had to date from this site. Your overwhelming disgust for the forum that comes through here made me really wonder why you were even bothering to post--other than for the stated sex education reasons, which could have been accomplished with more credibility without all the ominous references to you leaving the forums.

I agree with whomever said you sounded bitter. This might not be the case, but it really does seem like you were burned by some experiences here. You might be happy to hear that your forum-negative viewpoint did make me look at this community very closely, holding it up to the accusations you put forward, and I think I'm even happier with the site because of that examination. I find that I feel good here, and safe, and that there is a lot of good that comes from this place not only for me but for many other people.
It's fair enough not to like my tone or the way I post. That's not the issue.

And it's great that you find that this forum fits and meets your needs and fits and meets the needs of other people. That's not the issue either.

I've said that this forum is a fantastic place for a subset of the poly community. I'm merely pointing out that when this place is stated to be a haven, that it isn't always a haven and people do leave because of their experiences here. It seems reasonable to me to examine why such things might be happening. Other people disagree. I think jkelly summed it up very well.

No forum is ever going to be perfect. I think we can all agree on that. However, I find it interesting that by stating my thoughts and feelings about the culture of this forum it has engendered a kind of "digging the heels in" reaction. Fair enough. It seems people are becoming very protective of what is here and not wanting to adjust, change or grow it to be more inclusive. In community organizing, if people want to grow a community, you often have to look at who isn't at the table and why. I would think that an internet resource that would *like* to be a resource for people (as this forum seeks to be) would also look at who is being served and who isn't being served and why. It seems that it would be easier to just paint me as bitter and hateful as a reason to dismiss the concerns than to examine how to be more inclusive.
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  #53  
Old 08-13-2010, 12:26 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Originally Posted by jkelly View Post

Nice analogy -- it looks like a tangle, but you only ever see one side. In this case, we (pretty much) only ever hear from people who are well-served by the forum (see the above), so the other side of the question doesn't really exist in the conversation. I still think it's worth trying to untangle the knot.
Let's start with this. I would like someone to explain to me how the following is not a paradox:

"Something should be done to make this forum more welcoming. People should be allowed to express themselves however they want."


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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I'm merely pointing out that when this place is stated to be a haven, that it isn't always a haven and people do leave because of their experiences here. It seems reasonable to me to examine why such things might be happening. Other people disagree. I think jkelly summed it up very well.

Are these "people who leave" expecting a "haven" when they come here? Perhaps this is too high of an expectation. I certainly don't consider this forum to be my haven, yet I have stayed here. I also do not fit with the stereotypical case-scenarios (couples opening their relationships, poly-mono relationships, etc.) of any of the groups that were described as "best served by this forum". I haven't been scared off by people putting down casual sex. Etc. It is just that I have thicker skin than the "people who leave"? I am not debating with you; you said it seems reasonable to examine this, so I'm trying to examine it.

I am still waiting for suggestions on what can be DONE about it. I can think of a few things that COULD be done, but the cure would be worse than the disease.
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  #54  
Old 08-13-2010, 06:23 PM
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redpepper redpepper is offline
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I would like to know exactly what the jist of the complaints is.

From what I gather its that there are people on here that are:

-firmly comfortable in their belief that poly-fi relationships are working for them,
-that struggling through mono/poly relationships is worth it to them,
-that being married or in a long term relationship is a reality for them and they consider that primary,
-or people that are not into casual sex and like to talk about their journey as to why and how they came to that realization.

Anything else I missed?

What is it about these people that is so offensive to some that they feel they can't bare talking to them? Is it that we are suppose to be in someway sorry? That we should in some way admit we are privileged and step aside? I don't get it.

When I personally don't want to debate who I am I just step away from a thread. If enough people do that, the discussion doesn't continue, end of story. How is that wrong or keeping people from coming here because of the atmosphere?

Its human nature to feel comfortable. Why would one out aside their comfort in the form of debating who they are to make someone else feel comfortable who is challenging them. Especially if that debate is uninvited. Its only natural to shut down and not engage at some point and I see nothing wrong with that survival tactic.
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  #55  
Old 08-13-2010, 06:46 PM
jkelly jkelly is offline
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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
Let's start with this. I would like someone to explain to me how the following is not a paradox:

"Something should be done to make this forum more welcoming. People should be allowed to express themselves however they want."
I don't think that's quite as paradoxical as it might seem. Maybe nobody ever wants to express themselves in a way that pushes back against someone else's unwelcoming expression. If that's the case, then the problem you're pointing at is really hard to solve. But I suspect that there's a way in which some people might want to push back, but don't feel like they'd be supported, or would wind up in a useless back-and-forth.

Let me use an example. Over here I make a bunch of kind-of dumb, prejudicial statements about couples opening up a previously mono- relationship. So... I think I get to express that (although I wish I'd done a better job of thinking that one through now). This is not a great example, because I doubt anyone thinks that previously mono- couples who want to try being poly- are poorly served or marginalised here. Nevertheless, what I think probably should have happened is for someone to say "Hey, Jkelly, you're making a bunch of dumb, prejudicial statements. We shouldn't do that, because we don't want people who you are judging like that to feel unwelcome here." So that person is also expressing themselves however they want, but they're doing it in a way that supports being more welcoming.

Now, as I said, if there really isn't anyone who felt at all inspired to call me out on that, there's nothing much to be done. But... if that's not the case, and someone did want to say something to me but didn't, then I think we can look at why they felt like they shouldn't.
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  #56  
Old 08-13-2010, 07:07 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkelly View Post
Let me use an example. Over here I make a bunch of kind-of dumb, prejudicial statements about couples opening up a previously mono- relationship. So... I think I get to express that (although I wish I'd done a better job of thinking that one through now). This is not a great example, because I doubt anyone thinks that previously mono- couples who want to try being poly- are poorly served or marginalised here. Nevertheless, what I think probably should have happened is for someone to say "Hey, Jkelly, you're making a bunch of dumb, prejudicial statements. We shouldn't do that, because we don't want people who you are judging like that to feel unwelcome here." So that person is also expressing themselves however they want, but they're doing it in a way that supports being more welcoming.
I believe this is what "we" (the forum mod staff) have been asking for, as it says, too, in the forum guidelines, and it is being interpreted as trying to limit the way people express themselves. The way I have understood the criticism(s) is that it ought to be acceptable to say "Fuck you, JKelly, and the high horse you rode in on", and that is still supposed to foster a "welcoming" and "inclusive" atmosphere.

Quote:
Now, as I said, if there really isn't anyone who felt at all inspired to call me out on that, there's nothing much to be done. But... if that's not the case, and someone did want to say something to me but didn't, then I think we can look at why they felt like they shouldn't.
How do we know they wanted to say something but felt like they shouldn't? I can only speak for myself - I am not a mind-reader. Please explain to me how the part in quotes above is also not a paradox. I'll re-phrase it in generic terms:

"People should speak up so that we know there is a problem. If no one speaks up, there must be a problem".

Again, I am hard pressed to understand why you, Ceoli, myself, and others are able to manage this just fine when it comes to our interactions on here, yet these "people who leave" only send their disenchantment over here by proxy. Why can't the "people who leave" state their case first hand? Or not? The "people who leave" is such a nebulous concept. Do they all leave for the same reason? How are we supposed to know if they don't say something? People are allowed to lurk, and they do not NEED to have a "good" reason for "leaving".


Remember, a Mobius Strip does not have TWO sides. It has ONE CONTINUOUS side.
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  #57  
Old 08-13-2010, 07:48 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
Again, I am hard pressed to understand why you, Ceoli, myself, and others are able to manage this just fine when it comes to our interactions on here, yet these "people who leave" only send their disenchantment over here by proxy. Why can't the "people who leave" state their case first hand? Or not? The "people who leave" is such a nebulous concept. Do they all leave for the same reason? How are we supposed to know if they don't say something? People are allowed to lurk, and they do not NEED to have a "good" reason for "leaving".
Default answer - "they feel this won't be a safe and inclusive environment to express their concerns"

How do we fix that will be the other default response.

And really...you CAN'T be all inclusive to everyone. Fact of life. BBS's try and it just can't and will not happen. Once people realize that the better off everyone will be. I hit up other poly forums and feel excluded by default because I am not like the others. Their poly feels so totally different to mine (think political left and political right...), I don't feel like I can be included. It is the selfishness of having opinion, since none of this can be based on actual fact. People on that side see themselves as inclusive and loving and they aren't. How can THEY fix that...

set aside your attachment to poly as a pagan thing only, take out the religion and preaching and everything that makes it as much as religious movement as it is a relationship style. Attaching it, as a pre-requisite, to a religious movement makes me go all icky inside. Look at that, I am excluded by a group believed to be inclusive and warm.

I use this example because of the extreme of it. What can we do as a board to be more inclusive. I haven't seen anywhere where people have been exclusive, so I just don't know. I can only relate what Ceoli is saying to what I feel on other sites. They likely don't even know they are being exclusive to me. Automatically making me run for the hills. I know there are people here who have those religious beliefs, and I respect them, they don't voice their poly as religious movements. They are both pagan and poly. Thats awesome. Am I excluding someone by pointing that out?...

ok...now, I didn't bother posting saying I wasn't coming back. Why you ask, it was a meh moment. I didn't care enough to bother. Maybe thats what happened here.

So thats my take on what ceoli is saying. I can understand it, but can't figure out where this site is exclusive. Considering my overall differences with people here, I find it inviting and warm...
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  #58  
Old 08-13-2010, 07:54 PM
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redsirenn redsirenn is offline
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
It's fair enough not to like my tone or the way I post. That's not the issue.

And it's great that you find that this forum fits and meets your needs and fits and meets the needs of other people. That's not the issue either.
How is it not the issue? It seems to me, that it is the exact issue that you bring up again and again.

I think it is a waste of time to argue this issue in rebuttal after rebuttal without a clear list of suggestions in the form of actions that all people on this forum could take.

If I were to offer up my own, it would look something like this:

- take care to not hyjack posts
- read around and learn where to post and what is already posted
- respect differences in posters on the forum (differences of religion, opinions, ways to do poly, etc) even if you disagree
- offer constructive feedback or support
- refrain from obvious slander (in the codes of conduct)

I feel this forum does, for the most part fulfill this list. If anyone else could add clear, succinct, non-repetitive suggestions maybe that would be a constructive and respectful way to continue a discussion about this?

Again - the hyjacking of this thread is, I feel, a bit disrespectful. The repetition about this topic is not efficient and personally gives me a headache. It also makes me feel like what is the fucking point of pointing something out - thus feeling a bit unwelcome myself.

So - can I suggest to the mods to move this under the thread for forum suggestions ONLY if we can all attempt to do this in a clearer, more efficient way? Please?

That I feel would be progress.

RS
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  #59  
Old 08-13-2010, 08:16 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
Default answer - "they feel this won't be a safe and inclusive environment to express their concerns"

How do we fix that will be the other default response.
This is the Rhetorical Mobius Strip™. I decree that from now on it must be referred to as such

Quote:
And really...you CAN'T be all inclusive to everyone. Fact of life. BBS's try and People on that side see themselves as inclusive and loving and they aren't. How can THEY fix that...
I'll tell you how *I* fix it. I dislike everyone equally.

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Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
ok...now, I didn't bother posting saying I wasn't coming back. Why you ask, it was a meh moment. I didn't care enough to bother. Maybe thats what happened here.

So thats my take on what ceoli is saying. I can understand it, but can't figure out where this site is exclusive.
My "take" on it is that the "People Who Leave" are friends or acquaintances of Ceoli, either in real life, on other online venues, or both. For some reason, They would rather not use their own voices to speak Their minds, but instead are content to have Ceoli be Their mouthpiece. I believe in speaking up for those who CANNOT speak for themselves (such as abused children and animals), not those who CHOOSE not to speak for themselves (such as grown, presumably literate, humans with access to the internet).
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  #60  
Old 08-13-2010, 08:23 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
I'll tell you how *I* fix it. I dislike everyone equally.
But then you create the dreaded, everyone is equal. This may create jealousy with your followers who want you to love them more haha
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