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  #41  
Old 08-12-2010, 08:06 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post

The rest is left up to the site owner, we can't make up forums on our own, just moderate what's here and follow the policies. If those policies change its up to him. He isn't interested in doing that as its all running along smoothly. If he did and things changed somehow then the mods would adjust or leave and the people who come here would adjust or leave.
You CAN make up forums for free, though. I was just talking about this with someone in PM. Forumotion and Aimoo are just two such sites where you can make your own free forum in minutes, and they look almost identical to this one. You even get a name like "myforumname.forumsmotion.com". Plenty of folks go that route when they can't find an existing forum that suits their needs, and it's easy to promote these because most forums don't mind promoting other forums that fill the needs of another niche of their target audience.
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  #42  
Old 08-12-2010, 08:18 PM
jkelly jkelly is offline
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Default Specific points of disagreement

There's a lot in this thread, especially as it became a meta-discussion about the forum instead of about Ygirl, that I felt like responding to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilove2men View Post
It really stinks of highschool issues from your past or something. I just wonder... Why are you here? Why do you come to a board that you so love to bash.
I was going to write this long analogy about a team project, and how weird it would be to accuse a dissenter of having issues from high school, but I think it's easier to just sum up by saying that I think that Ceoli is offering constructive criticism, and I get that you don't.

What I think is going on in the larger conversation is disagreement on a few specific points:
  1. This forum can reasonably be described as a resource for people to discuss polyamory. -- I think that there's broad agreement with this.
  2. Many people who post on this forum are well served by it. -- I think that there's broad agreement with this.
  3. There exist people who would like to discuss polyamory who are not well served by this forum. -- There may be some disagreement here.
  4. Some of those people would not contribute anything valuable to the forum. -- I think that there's broad agreement with this.
  5. Some other of those people would contribute something valuable to the forum. -- I think that there's significant disagreement with this.
  6. There is a way in which this forum could continue to serve well the people it does but also serve well additional potential contributors if some steps were taken. -- I think that there's significant disagreement with this.
  7. People who are already well-served by the forum are unlikely to be the best people to evaluate those steps. -- I think that there's significant disagreement with this.
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  #43  
Old 08-12-2010, 08:21 PM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
you misunderstand.
OK, got it now.

Yeah, the problem with definition is one poly shares with the Pagan movement. Those who aim for accurate descriptions are chastised by those who want terms that can cover a whole bunch of different things (and thus are wholly useless as they mean nothing).

We knew that at the outset and set things up to welcome disagreement and allow everybody to express their thoughts on the issues.

Quote:
this is the most unmoderated forum I have ever been on...
Heh. And yet we get criticized for moderating what we do because it's stifling and people are unable to express themselves freely. We frisk for weapons at the door and insist on fair fights and then get told we're too restrictive and that makes some people feel unwelcome.
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  #44  
Old 08-12-2010, 08:23 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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I've asked before for what specific steps should be taken and no one ever says anything. I've talked about this with Ceoli privately and she replied that she is not sure that there is anything that can be done by the moderation staff, that "it's not a moderation issue, it's a culture issue".

Please correct me if I got that wrong, Ceoli. You know we've been beating this particular dead horse for about a year.

I am pleased to see JKelly finally joining this discussion.
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  #45  
Old 08-12-2010, 08:38 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
Heh. And yet we get criticized for moderating what we do because it's stifling and people are unable to express themselves freely. We frisk for weapons at the door and insist on fair fights and then get told we're too restrictive and that makes some people feel unwelcome.
I have had to wield the magic hammer in a lock down of a forum of over 100,000 users. The lockdown chased away a group of 50. In that process we gained another 20,000. Sometimes it is needed and other times it isn't. We had many trolls and people who just werent conceding their own ignorance (damn those hipsters and their fixed gear bikes...). It was a significantly larger forum in scale than this. That was heavy handed moderation

If people think this is heavy moderation than they haven't played on forums with actual moderation. I have only been censored here once, with a lot of swearing and ranting and horrible sexual innuendo ...sometimes rants directed against the longer time members. That censorship came because of a youtube add I posted. Something I shouldn't have done. Moderation on this site is virtually non-existent and the site runs well, kudos to the team.

Your rules simply follow the human condition for reasonable interactions.

I will stop stroking the egos now...back to you usual programming of ... well poly foruming haha
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  #46  
Old 08-12-2010, 08:45 PM
jkelly jkelly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
I've asked before for what specific steps should be taken and no one ever says anything. I've talked about this with Ceoli privately and she replied that she is not sure that there is anything that can be done by the moderation staff, that "it's not a moderation issue, it's a culture issue".
Sure. I mean, I imagine that really heavy-handed moderation would change the culture a lot, but I don't have any reason to believe it would be for the better, and at that point we're sort of talking about some entirely different hypothetical forum instead of this one.

That said, I don't think it's a "dead horse". Having it pointed out that some people are not well-served can be useful in and of itself, because it can serve as a reminder to check ourselves when it comes to how we treat people who aren't fitting in well. Not to harp on Ilove2, but note that Ceoli is first described as a valuable contributor, but her feedback on the culture of the forum is then described as pathological because her experience of it is different than the majority's.

I think that the general impression here about that is, "Well, if someone can't stand being pathologised, get out of the kitchen." I think that's problematic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
I am pleased to see JKelly finally joining this discussion.
The conversation has sort of moved on, hasn't it? I'm not sure if it makes sense to derail the tangent, which I think is more interesting and important than my specific complaint about your comment on the HMA thread. Or did you mean something else by that?
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  #47  
Old 08-12-2010, 09:15 PM
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redpepper redpepper is offline
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Originally Posted by jkelly View Post
Having it pointed out that some people are not well-served can be useful in and of itself, because it can serve as a reminder to check ourselves when it comes to how we treat people who aren't fitting in well.
Yes it can for the reason you described. I'm just not sure what saying it over and over again is meant to produce. Change? I would assume, but we can only change ourselves then and that takes time or doesn't happen at all if we decide not to. Sometimes we think that we are doing all we can and until a light goes off in ones head, that is just where we are at. That should be respected I think. Or we should move on.

I work in a company that has a main office with two flights of stairs. Its meant to serve my clients, people with disabilities. The director wanted that office because it is high enough to see the ocean from his window. He didn't think about my clients and how we now can't go there easily because of the stairs. He really didn't think about it and has found ways to help us negotiate the stairs. The fact of the matter is that it is awkward and a pain in the ass so we don't go there. We go elsewhere and get our needs met quite nicely.

The world works like that. I think we just need to learn how to deal and get on with it. I make it work for my clients and when he asks me why we don't go there I just say matter-of-factly, "because of the stairs."

I see this forum the same way. It has some stairs. That's just how it is. I chose to shrug it off and make the best of it. If asked then I would say I don't talk about that there "because of the stairs," I go elsewhere. No emotion attached, its just how it is and I don't have a need to be stressed about that as there are other things to be stressed about.

In my job I have a bigger need to make sure my clients are having fun and see they are well taken care of. The stairs are not an issue. They don't even know I struggled because I don't take them there.
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  #48  
Old 08-12-2010, 09:30 PM
Ilove2men Ilove2men is offline
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If you read what I wrote I spoke of how she picks apart peoples words to serve her agenda. I didn't say what that agenda is because when she gets on one of these kicks it could be about anything and I also said that it wasn't about this posts. I just see a pattern of what made me uncomfortable about this forum when I was a newbie. Spcifically when she would zero in on someone I was afraid to speak my mind because I am not skilled in that type of debate. I thought that bit of info would be helpful to this topic because as Ari said that is something that has changed and I find this place to be less intimidating.

This forum is made by the idividuals on it. This is a senerio showing the effect that a specific individual had on another's outlook on the forum as a whole. Also you will see where I stated I gravitate to those who are different than I. I'm not saying anything negative about Ceoli because she is not one of the mass. Her knowledge and insight are valuable because she has a way of disecting things that I actually really like. I just think it could be put to better use on the issue at hand not how people explain their own point of view. Maybe there would be an answer to this year long debate. But this is just me stating how one thing she does makes me feel. It's really just a statement I don't expect her to change who she is or anything. She is she and I accept that. Just felt like throwing it out there.
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  #49  
Old 08-12-2010, 11:19 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkelly View Post

The conversation has sort of moved on, hasn't it? I'm not sure if it makes sense to derail the tangent, which I think is more interesting and important than my specific complaint about your comment on the HMA thread. Or did you mean something else by that?
I meant this discussion in particular, not this thread in general. That is why I used the word "discussion" instead of the word "thread". I did use the latter initially and revised it to the former, in order to say what I really meant to say.

I was taking you at your word when you said you wanted to know in good faith how people could tell me that I am making an ass out of myself. Yes, the conversation has moved on, but I don't see that as being counter-productive to the original reason why I started this thread.

I don't think talking about the forum is "beating a dead horse" but I do think the question "what would you have us DO" is some kind of a rhetorical mobius-strip.
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  #50  
Old 08-13-2010, 05:05 AM
FormerUnicorn FormerUnicorn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I'd just like to see a bit more diversity of views. Apparently making my views about that is "brow-beating". So be it. I have views and I post them. That's why I'm here. I really don't care if I'm liked or even listened to. But I do care about what other people who may come here seeking information see and read.
I'm a little late to the party, but I wanted to point out that the concept of a "welcoming atmosphere" is rather subjective. I think inclusivity is important too, and I understand what you're saying about marginalization, but I have a confession to make:

Your posts made me feel unwelcome. Judged. Like why should I even find this place good and constructive when it has so many obvious flaws.

It's just one of many, but here's the first post of yours that I read (Edited for brevity, not content):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I have generally abandoned this forum for a variety of reasons, but this thread was pointed back to me by a fellow sex educator. This right here is a huge sticking point with those who promote sex positivity.

The thinking HMA was describing as dead wrong is indeed dead wrong and here's why:

It is making a blanket statement that is full of assumptions about the motivations of other people. It is basically saying that those who engage in casual sex must have something wrong with them and that those who don't must be more reliable for relationships. This is an attempt to disguise something that is presented as fact (as erroneous and assumed as the fact may be) and trying to pass it off as opinion. It is exactly like saying "I feel polyamorous people are greedy, so I know poly relationships aren't right FOR ME" Or, "Bisexual people can't really make up their minds, so FOR ME it's not going to meet my needs to date them". For some reason, adding the "for me" is supposed to allow the person to claim that nobody can correct their erroneous and wrong way of thinking because it's their opinion and their feelings.

And quite frankly this overprotectiveness and need to protect such erroneous ways of thinking about the motivations of others is part of the culture that I decided to leave here.

Not sure if I'll be back to the forum, but I've done my bit for the sex educators.
I'm not challenging the validity of the points that you made here, but the tone in which you couch your distaste for the forum was one of the biggest turnoffs I have had to date from this site. Your overwhelming disgust for the forum that comes through here made me really wonder why you were even bothering to post--other than for the stated sex education reasons, which could have been accomplished with more credibility without all the ominous references to you leaving the forums.

I agree with whomever said you sounded bitter. This might not be the case, but it really does seem like you were burned by some experiences here. You might be happy to hear that your forum-negative viewpoint did make me look at this community very closely, holding it up to the accusations you put forward, and I think I'm even happier with the site because of that examination. I find that I feel good here, and safe, and that there is a lot of good that comes from this place not only for me but for many other people.
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