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  #11  
Old 10-22-2012, 11:36 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Ok, so he's on his second chance then. Does he know this? And that it isn't like he gets infinite second chances?

What about you feeling "ugh" about her not coming clean. This is your expectation. Have you stated it to her directly -- "Why have you not come clean with me? "

That's work on your

you <--> Kathy tier of the polymath. (Do you go to her with things well? Does she come to you?)

and the

you to (Abe + Kathy) tier of the relationship. (Do you go to them as a couple with your things well? Does that couple come to you?)

Every polyship has many mini relationships inside it. Neither of those tiers is giving you what you want -- honesty. So have you articulated it and these tiers are not delivering? Or do you expect them to "just know" and "should be telling you?" Nobody can mind reader.

How does the trio agree to be together? What rights and responsibilities will you each hold up?

Again... most of the polymath stuff I wrote out for this thread -- it applies here. Just different names. Also the dealing with problems that pop up. Gotta break down the elephant.

GalaGirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 10-22-2012 at 11:45 PM.
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  #12  
Old 10-22-2012, 11:42 PM
snowmelt snowmelt is offline
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I know this is a painfull situation for you. I'm glad you can see what's really going on, and you're willing to he honest with yourself about it. That tells me you have the wisdom to figure out how you want to live, and the strength to build that life for yourself - regardless of how the talk with Abe and K goes, and regardless of whether they are in your life or not.

I understand things are painfull right now, but I'm very proud of you. Always remember to love yourself. You have the strength to be happy if you choose to draw on that strength.
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  #13  
Old 10-23-2012, 05:34 AM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderZag View Post
I'm willing to try to take this on, but at what point do I get to be more worried about me and how I feel about something than be worried about if it will hurt K or ruin the chances of them being happy together?
Right now. Yesterday, if possible. Not tomorrow. Now.

Tell Abe that you are not responsible for K's emotions. K is responsible for K's emotions. You are only responsible for ThunderZag's emotions. Stop calling that "selfish." It's called "responsible." Anyone who says otherwise is trying to manipulate you with a guilt trip.

If she's grown-up enough to own a house and have three boyfriends, then she should be grown-up enough to be responsible for dealing with her feelings. Then again, she's not grown-up enough to be honest with the people in her life, so my hopes of her learning accountability are sadly low.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowmelt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderZag View Post
However I am more able to forgive Abe as he has always told me that he couldn't promise he would never "cheat", but that he would try to follow the rules we had agreed to as much as possible.
By saying this to you, Abe clearly told you he doesn't have the boundaries or maturity to honor agreements. The situation you are in now is a very reasonable and predictable result of his poor boundaries.
In all fairness, he promised to try, not to do. My interpretation of "I can't promise I will never cheat" would be "I'm pretty much telling you right now, if you try to make me monogamous, I'm going to cheat." I hate cheating as much as the next guy, but upon hearing that assertion, the receiver has a certain level of accountability for sticking around under that condition.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
In point of fact; it doesn't matter WHO is being dishonest with whom. Anyone who notices will lose trust.
So true. My step-daughter's mother is a pathological liar. She's taught the kid how to get her way by lying. While I've caught her in lies a few times, she's pretty smooth. But more than once, I've heard her lie on the phone to one of her friends. So now whenever she tells me anything, I smile and nod... but inside, I'm thinking "yeah right."
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Last edited by SchrodingersCat; 10-23-2012 at 05:41 AM.
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  #14  
Old 10-23-2012, 05:37 AM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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p.s. If you're not already, start using condoms with Abe. I don't trust her to be honest about her safe sex practices, and I don't fully trust Abe to pick up the slack.
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  #15  
Old 10-23-2012, 09:22 AM
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rory rory is offline
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I didn't have time to read all the responses but I wanted to comment on this

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderZag View Post
Abe has laid down a handful of baseline rules that I agree with, and I'm willing to try. My problem right now, is that I don't feel very rational or logical. I have never been able to lie to people, I tend to be honest to a fault without meaning to be. Abe has asked that I not confront K, or treat her any differently than I did before all of this came up again, because he doesn't want her hurt. K tends to react VERY badly when she is hurt. So now I feel like I'm lying to her because I'm acting like I'm ok with everything and that she hasn't caused me any pain.
This isn't right. With this kind rule in place, the poly relationship will most definitely not work!

For it to work you need to be able to communicate with K. You need to be able to tell her how you feel. For you to be able to forgive her for her part in the boundary breaking, you need to get her side of the story (did she know, why did she do it) and an apology, if warranted.

Doesn't it strike you as somehow wrong that Abe cheated on you with K and then he is worried that she might get her feelings hurt if you talked with her? Doesn't it seem problematic that he is protecting her feelings but not yours?

It sounds to me he is not really worried about how either of you feel. What concerns him is that there might be some consequences to him about the way he acted if you girls talked with each other...
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  #16  
Old 10-23-2012, 05:47 PM
ThunderZag ThunderZag is offline
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I confronted K last night. I told her that what they had done behind my back was not just a betrayal to me, that it was a betrayal of our friendship. I told her that I still love her as my friend but I don't trust her as far as I can throw her right now. I told her that I am willing to forgive but she has to work on getting my trust back, and that there isn't any specific thing she can do to fix it. I told her that if she truly wants a to be in a poly relationship with Abe and I that she has to talk to me as much as she talks to Abe about how she feels. That if it is a relationship with both of us she wants then it has to be both of us, not just one, that she communicates to. I told her there are no 3rd chances, this is her second and last chance. I told her that if she truly wants a poly relationship with us, that she is also going to have to tell the other two men she's dating that she is dating us. Told her that once that once that bridge is crossed that her lying to them does affect us, and that if she continued to lie to them, that I could never trust her to not lie to us. I told her that Abe had asked that I not bring any of this up and not confront her for her role in this because he didn't want her feelings hurt, and said that that was unacceptable. That I refused to be the only one who's feelings were allowed to get hurt, and that I didn't do anything wrong in this, so I refuse to feel bad about hurting her feelings. I told her that I expected more out of her than I honestly did Abe. Abe has always been clear that he's not mono and that he never could be, and while yes he broke our rules in not talking to me about it first, I knew it would happen someday. But that I expected her to have the control to say "No, we have to talk to Thunderzag about this first" and she didn't. I told her that right now, no, I really don't trust them alone together. I told her I am a forgiving person and that I suspect it won't take long before I start trusting her again but that I really can't give her an exact timeline. I told her that condom rule we have will remain in place until she has stopping seeing one of the guys she's dating and has been tested and that other forms of birth control have been put into place. Abe and I have been trying for a baby for 4 years now, and have had one miscarriage 3 years ago, so no I'm not ready for her to get pregnant by him, especially while I'm still hurt and angry.

She told me she completely understood. She apologized for betraying me, admitted that she has gone most of her life just doing and not thinking and that she had been lucky that it had never had adverse consequences. She said that she does truly value our friendship and that would rather us all just stay friends and cut any sexual or committed relationship ties with Abe than risk her friendship with me.

I still don't trust her, so I'll see how it goes. At least she did admit and apologize. Finally.
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  #17  
Old 10-23-2012, 09:25 PM
snowmelt snowmelt is offline
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Hi SchrodingersCat,

I just noticed that you were talking to me in part of your reply, with these words:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
In all fairness, he promised to try, not to do. My interpretation of "I can't promise I will never cheat" would be "I'm pretty much telling you right now, if you try to make me monogamous, I'm going to cheat." I hate cheating as much as the next guy, but upon hearing that assertion, the receiver has a certain level of accountability for sticking around under that condition.
I agree. This was the point I was making to ThunderZag.


ThunderZag,

I'm very proud of you. Keep in mind no one (not even Abe and K) really know what Abe and K are going to do. The most important part of what you did, in my opinion, is give yourself the experience of standing up for yourself and speaking your mind with good boundaries. That confidence and character building experience will stay with you, regardless of what Abe and K do.
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  #18  
Old 10-24-2012, 02:05 AM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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I am glad you spoke up on the

you <----> K tier of this polyship.

Now... when does the talk in TRIO happen? The tier of

you + Abe + K ?

Working together as a team, as the larger polyship group? That could happen next so everyone is on the same page as to expectations, code of conduct, rights, responsibilities, etc. The "how are we going to be together so we are in right relationship?" stuff. You have to come to agreements so the polyship can fly well.

But again -- good for you for speaking up. I totally agree with snowmelt:

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowmelt
The most important part of what you did, in my opinion, is give yourself the experience of standing up for yourself and speaking your mind with good boundaries. That confidence and character building experience will stay with you, regardless of what Abe and K do.
We teach others how we want to be treated. Hopefully they learn it, and then treat us the way we want to be treated consistently.

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 10-24-2012 at 02:07 AM.
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  #19  
Old 10-31-2012, 05:56 PM
opalescent opalescent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderZag View Post
I told her that I expected more out of her than I honestly did Abe. Abe has always been clear that he's not mono and that he never could be, and while yes he broke our rules in not talking to me about it first, I knew it would happen someday. But that I expected her to have the control to say "No, we have to talk to Thunderzag about this first" and she didn't.
ThunderZ,

First good on you on talking with her directly. I hope she can rebuild a trusting relationship with you, even if only friendship.

I highlighted the quote above because it concerns me. Here's why. I feel you are putting too much of the blame on her. Yes, she should have done better and handled things very differently. No doubt about that.

Abe has clearly indicated he's not mono, yes. He told you he would cheat on you sooner or later. So you were duly warned about that aspect of his personality. But from reading this thread he does not act like someone who is poly - someone who values openness and honesty and doing the hard work of relationships before jumping into bed with someone. He doesn't act like someone trustworthy - the fact that he gave you a clear warning that he is not trustworthy does not make him trustworthy. Perhaps he can make the transition from cheater to poly. People do with much hard work. But don't make her responsible for his actions which is what you are doing with the quoted statement. As much as you are not responsible for her feelings (referencing some other posts), she is not responsible for him deciding to cheat. She is responsible only for her part in the debacle. He is responsible for his. Yes, she betrayed you. But so did he and it is not her job to get him not to betray you too. All she can do is decide not to betray you herself.

I wish you the best and I hope they can tap into their better selves and become trustworthy people.

Last edited by opalescent; 10-31-2012 at 05:57 PM. Reason: clarity
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  #20  
Old 10-31-2012, 07:23 PM
ThunderZag ThunderZag is offline
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K has finally told me that what she wanted was for things to stay the exact same except that she got to have sex with Abe every morning. She does not want to have a relationship because she doesn't want to tell the other two men she's dating about each other or about Abe. Which is the opposite of what she told Abe. I told Abe what she had told me, and he has decided that he doesn't want to work on any relationship with her any longer. He doesn't want to just have a sexual relationship, and now he doesn't want any relationship with her because she is still lying to at least one of us.

Right now I'm still leery and not really trusting them to be alone together. I'm hoping that I can get some trust back in both of them and I can have my friend and partner back. Right now I'm just taking it one day at a time.
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