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  #181  
Old 09-09-2013, 05:50 PM
opalescent opalescent is offline
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Originally Posted by Numina View Post
... Airyn is in love with me, and with Chipmunk and canít let go of either one of us. Choosing one over the other is a losing situation for him. I get that. If he lives with me, and cuts Chipmunk out then heís bitter, resentful, and angry over that loss. If he lives with Chipmunk (or on his own so he can see her when he wishes too) then he has that same bitter resentful anger over losing me.

I see it as very likely that staying together as things are I will get to a point where the bitterness, and resentment are greater than the love. And when that happens I wonít be just saying I've had enough any more. It will be for real. I was just talking to Airyn about that recently. Telling him that I feel like thatís where things are heading for me.
Numina,

I'm sorry. I hoped for more resolution, a better outcome.

And, yes, it is infinitely easier for strangers on the internet to tell you to pull the ripcord. We don't have to live with the consequences. And we only see what you put before us. Airyn's or Chipmunk's POV would be different, as might be the responses.

But sometimes outsiders see a dynamic a bit clearer than those mired in the dynamic. (Not always of course - we are all only human.) Anneintherain posted her experience about choosing divorce when her partner couldn't or wouldn't. Look at it again. You are at a similar crossroads where you can choose a path to an eventual better outcome, or not.

There are no villains here - just people who want different things, and those things are not compatible. Everyone made mistakes, and everyone contributed to the situation. I understand your sympathy for Airyn. You've loved this man for decades, created a child with him, parent with him.

You cannot do squat all about Airyn's resentment and unhappiness.You can only manage your own thoughts and emotions as best you can. What you can do is consider from your limited options the best one for you and Wolf, and for setting up the best possible co-parenting situation for you and Airyn. It is possible to divorce now, go through that miserable pain (Yes, I've been there although not with children which is an important difference) and come through it with some healthy relationship intact with Airyn. You have no complaints about his fathering and want him to continue being a father to Wolf. You don't want to cut off access. I do think you and he have tried to keep Wolf out of things which I applaud. If you let the rage and resentment and anger build until you feel forced to pull the plug, then you are at much greater risk of utterly destroying any possibility of a healthy relationship (co-parenting at least, maybe more). That would be devastating to all of you.

You do have choices. You do have options beyond just waiting in the same situation until you truly cannot take anymore.

Not making a decision is making a decision. Not choosing is making a choice. He has put you in the position of deciding the hard things over and over again. He, for whatever reasons, is currently incapable of making hard decisions. He is not a bad person but it does make him a bad partner FOR YOU right now. He wants you to decide for him.

So do so. If you feel this is best for you and your child, divorce. Have him move out. Or you move out. You may need to pay alimony if he is not working. Do what you have to do. You can choose to stay. But know that the window of opportunity to salvage a workable relationship with him - someone that will be in your life for the rest of your life because of your child - is closing.

Maybe being on his own will be the impetus he needs to get to figure out his co-dependency, his need to save people, his refusal to face hard decisions. Or not. Maybe being on your own is what you need to work on your own co-dependency. But what you are doing now is not working.

Let him go.
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  #182  
Old 09-09-2013, 06:23 PM
Livingmybestlife Livingmybestlife is offline
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Numina,

I have lived in limbo with my husband for 3 years. It isn't easy. The choice has been his. He decided to cross hard boundaries in our relationship. The hard boundaries are sex outside of our relationship without honesty and informing me, health at risk, pursuing his nephew's girlfriend without anyone's knowledge. I do understand living in limbo.

For me detaching did not include either of us leaving the house. What it did include is my insistence of his going to individual counseling to gain clarity. The reason we are still in limbo is that he chooses to ignore trust building agreements. Has lied to the therapist and myself.

Why do I stay? I stay because I love him. I did have a boyfriend and I did rely on him for a lot of support. We broke up a few times and are finally over. Nothing to do with my husband. My husband asked me not to pursue another relationship at this point. A month ago I told him due to his lack of commitment to therapy, I was going to date.

The detachment I was talking about was no need for a fight if you have a calendar and you go through and mark the days you expect him to be spending with Wolf and you. (such as Christmas and holidays). Getting a restraining order on Chipmunk to preclude her from causing the drama she has done while friends are around. This then takes away any choice of her coming to your residence where she has more then anything disrespected your child. She has also disrespected you.

I understand your wanting to save your relationship with Aaryn and I fully support you in doing it. I understand he wants you both, it is just hard when he is involved with a very narcistic person. I can't image someone denying a child a meal, especially the child of a lover.

I hope you work this out. I can tell you taking a bat and whaling the hell out of my bed did wonders for my frustration. I seriously wouldn't even ask questions about there relationship. Set hard boundaries as to time and phone calls and keep them.

Hugs LMBL
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  #183  
Old 09-10-2013, 01:18 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numina View Post
And NYcindie you can say this now, but I saw a post from you on another blog about a three year ordeal between you and your x-husband before your marriage ended. So I believe it is actually hindsight for you, and maybe what you would attempt for yourself in a situation like this one. But I also see that you know ending things (if that’s what will happen) isn’t quick or easy. You also know that ending things via divorce isn’t quick or easy. We can maybe talk more on that in PM if you like.
I don't know which post you are referring to, but there was no ordeal between my husband and me. My personal ordeal had to do with the actual separation and my very dire financial situation, not how he treated me during our marriage. We had been drifting apart and not having sex for the last three years before he asked for a divorce, but it had been a mutual pulling away (as far as the sex). I was stressed and depressed over other things in my life, and he was trying to deal with my depression. We were still very much friends with each other, still affectionate and kind to each other, and still supportive of each other during the last three years before separating, though we began to have small arguments from time to time (generally, we always discussed issues but did not argue). He withheld from me how unhappy he was, and that is why his wanting to leave me was a total shock to me. He had been struggling to work it out himself internally before he decided he needed to leave our marriage - however, my husband never abused me, and never lied to me! Airyn regularly abuses and takes advantage of you, in blatantly unbelievably callous ways as well as sometimes subtle, insidious ways.

I can tell you that this is not hindsight talking when I say you need to leave Airyn. I would never have tolerated abuse from my husband and he always knew it. While so many women I know have had, somewhere in their history, an abusive relationship, I never had. None of my boyfriends before I got married ever abused me, because I simply do not put up with that shit. Early on in my marriage (first two years), there was an incident, something my husband did, which really pissed me off and made me lose trust in him. When it happened, I told him in no uncertain terms that I would change the lock to our apartment if he ever did that again. I don't even need a locksmith to do it, I've got an extra lockset and can do it myself. I told him never to think he could make a fool of me again. He knew I wasn't kidding and eventually rebuilt the trust I had in him and we had a really great, honest relationship, until almost a decade later when he held back what he was struggling with for a few reasons (not wanting to hurt me, not wanting a third divorce, etc.). We have always been honest with each other. He never cheated on me, never raised a hand to me, never humiliated me in any way, and never expected me to accept selfishness on his part.

I know that walking away would not be easy, but it would be the only thing you can do to move toward a satisfying, happy life. Staying with Airyn and tolerating his absolute BULLSHIT is only going to be more struggle and heartbreak. HE is as much of the problem as Chipmunk is. I am sorry to say that the writing is on the wall, and everyone can see it but you. Save yourself... and your daughter!
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Last edited by nycindie; 09-10-2013 at 01:29 AM.
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  #184  
Old 09-20-2013, 08:06 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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Originally Posted by Numina View Post
Also Airyn has not chosen Chipmunk over me in a long time now. What he has done is chosen to not choose between us. He lives with me, and made that choice before finding out that he could not live with Chipmunk. He lives with me not just for Wolf, or because he can't/won't live with Chipmunk. He lives with me to BE with me. To spend time with me. To take care of me in what ways he can considering that he isn't able to let go of Chipmunk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by opalescent View Post
Not making a decision is making a decision. Not choosing is making a choice. He has put you in the position of deciding the hard things over and over again. He, for whatever reasons, is currently incapable of making hard decisions. He is not a bad person but it does make him a bad partner FOR YOU right now. He wants you to decide for him.
I have already acknowledged this one.

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Originally Posted by opalescent View Post
So do so. If you feel this is best for you and your child, divorce. Have him move out. Or you move out. You may need to pay alimony if he is not working. Do what you have to do. You can choose to stay. But know that the window of opportunity to salvage a workable relationship with him - someone that will be in your life for the rest of your life because of your child - is closing.

Maybe being on his own will be the impetus he needs to get to figure out his co-dependency, his need to save people, his refusal to face hard decisions. Or not. Maybe being on your own is what you need to work on your own co-dependency. But what you are doing now is not working.

Let him go.
Call it co-dependency if you wish, but that is not the whole view. Itís the co-dependency built on years and years of living together, relying on each other. Which is more like interdependence. Loving someone, living with someone, having a child with them builds a certain amount of dependency between those two people.

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Originally Posted by Numina View Post
Detaching might be for the best, but I can not do that on my own, I need him to decided to go. We (I) have tried to just be friends/roommates. That didnít work. We both love each other too much despite all this animosity. Iíve asked myself, and Iíve asked Airyn many many times over the last 5 or 6 months, ďwhy am I still trying, why canít I just end things with him and move on?Ē My answer is the same as his. Because of LOVE. Doesnít matter that Love isnít enough to keep us from tearing each other apart. It doesnít matter that being in love with Airyn is hurting me because of his relationship to Chipmunk. I still feel all that love that he and I have build over the 2 decades we have been together.
Airyn has been a non-working stay at home father for at least 10 years. Kicking him out is not an option.
1 - my income is not such that I could afford two residence.
2 - Iím not the kind of person who would drop him off at a homeless shelter.

For Airyn to move out he has to agree to move in with a friend or family member. He canít live with Chipmunk for various reasons so that isnít an option for him. His closest family is 7 hour drive away, and would keep him from seeing Wolf as often as he wants to be able to do.

Another point: Airyn and I have had rough patches when we were first getting together, both before and after we began cohabitation. We worked it out, and became stronger as a couple for having done so. There were times of separation then as well, and likely will again.

I got tired after reading the latest response, and have not actually finished catching things up. So you guys are actually in the dark on current events/conversations. I'll probably just move on to what it looks like will happen now.
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Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #185  
Old 09-20-2013, 08:35 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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What HAS happened? Airyn got a job a few weeks ago, and expects his first paycheck soon. Over the last three weeks there has been a LOT of talk, discussion about him moving out. I brought it up.

The conversations about Airyn moving out?
I told Airyn that I feel he needs to move out so he can have his relationship with Chipmunk on his own terms, and not be restricted by my terms, conditions, ect. Veto power was NEVER actually GIVEN to me. All over these forum (when Iím looking for advice) I have read that vetoing a relationship a year later is bad business.

*following quotes not in any real order*
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I'm going to answer the title.

I don't see how this can work. If a problem exists in a relationship-then THAT problem in THAT relationship needs addressed.

When my DH and I were having issues-WE separated, he got his own apartment and we reverted back to dating each other with specified times and availability. We did counseling, we worked on OUR issues.
But taking a break from my relationship with GG because DH and I were having issues? No.
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Originally Posted by WhatToDo View Post
I think it is an unreasonable thing to ask him take a step back from someone according to you that he is in love with. It's to late to pump the breaks at this point in my opinion. You were fine with them getting to this point in their relationship but now that they're there it's too much for you? So now you want two people to put their feelings on hold because you're struggling? And from what you've written it seems like you still get treated like the primary relationship if they're only together a couple of times a week.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
I do think that a break from relationships can be healthy. However, I think the relationship with the problem is the one that needs a break.

Which one of these concepts makes more sense:

"This kind of sucks, I am going to stop doing it for a while"
"This kind of sucks, I am going to stop doing other things that I enjoy"

There is no way that his "pausing" his relationship * * * will do anything but breed seething resentment for you. I hope that you decide to drop that thought process entirely and get on with dealing with your own shit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagferi View Post
Honestly I think you and your husband need to take a break. Almost sounds like you want to punish him because you are insecure and miserable.

I am not going to rehash what others have said better than I can.

My husband and I are at a crossroads ourselves . He like you wants to work it out. Me I am tired of dealing with it. I have spoken my wants needs and boundaries until I am blue in the face. He has never respected that and has trampled over agreements over and over. He denies doing so. Lucky for him he hasn't made the request that I take a break from my bf. My bf is the one good thing I have to look forward to. He brings me peace and is my rock. If my husband made the demand you're thinking of making my husband would be gone. I am not going to throw away 17months of happiness for someone who is a source of stress.

So yeah Airyn has been in the position these above quotes say he should walk away from me for. But he hasnít. I would guess heís built up resentment, of his own over this. And Iíve seen other posts (I just donít feel like searching them out and quoting them here) about the unreasonable requests being to blame versus the person side stepping over the ďunreasonable request to get/have what they want/need.

My side is a little bit more than patience, or just ďunderstandingĒ Itís me recognizing that Iím making things worse over all. Is that co-dependency? I have done some research here, and I have always felt that when people talk about co-dependency they are referring to a person who feels they canít live/survive without another person. Either the person they are currently with or the new person they attach themselves to as soon as they are no longer in a relationship. (that of course is not the only part of codependency, itís just what I see people pointing at most often)

I used to not be comfortable at home alone, or even just myself and Wolf. I have a decent understanding of what that meant for me during those times where I was dealing with/working through that issue. I no longer have overwhelming ďI HATE BEING HOME ALONEĒ moments. I do still get the occasional, ďI have to get out now, do something anything out of this empty homeĒ. When that occurs I got for a walk, or run errands, I find something productive to do. I have found that these moments tend to occur when I am dealing with stress or anxiety of some sort. I have a stressful job, and work schedule, and things in my current relationship with Airyn are stressful. So I get that ďGotta get out nowĒ here and there, but not like I did ten years ago.
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #186  
Old 09-20-2013, 08:36 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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Back to the topic of Airyn moving out.

Originally I suggested that Airyn move out because I see heís not actually done with his relationship with Chipmunk. I suggested that he move in with her, and let it play out see where things go for him. This is how I found out that he can not live with Chipmunk, and more of WHY he canít. Some of it is her personality, some her way of living, some his need for independence/security, and on and on.

I was upfront with him, that I donít like the idea of him moving in with Chipmunk, or him moving out at all. That we did agree to always live together no matter what till Wolf becomes an adult (or as long as she lives at home). I also reminded him the many, many times that I have attempted with words and actions to ďkickĒ him out, or give him the impetuous he needs to just go to get away from me.

He has several moving out things to work out.

1 - Wolf

So many problems that can cause. He knows what things built resentment, and animosity between him and his mother, he knows what has happened in his life with his mom that he has not forgot, and is still not happy/accepting of. He doesnít want to add anything new to Wolfís issues with him.

He also wants to have daily contact with Wolf, and recognizes how difficult that will be on me. He is recognising that I am likely to not want daily contact with him. He acknowledged that Iím likely to want rules/guidelines for when he can be at my place.

2 - Transportation

New job breeds extra responsibility. Have to be able to get to work to keep the job. So the location he lives will be important, and could cost him extra due to where I live, and where his job is. Itís not a cheap area of town.

3 - Cost

Can he afford to live on his own? What things will he be without, what things will he be able to take with him?

4 - Risk

Its a risk. How likely is this to further damage his relationship with Wolf?

Will I wait for him, resent him? Some things heís said, ďI donít want to lose you because i moved out.Ē ďMy moving out is not us getting a divorce never to be together again. There is a lot more that would have to happen for that. That is not the point of my moving out.Ē

lol, somehow his moving out has become his idea versus my idea. >.>

Other conversations happening.
I am determined to move after this school year. I have talked and talked for 5+ years about moving closer to some of my family. Now Iím determined to actually do it. I told Airyn that Iím moving because I have wanted to for years, and because I want to get away from his relationship with Chipmunk. I am moving with or without him.

How did Airyn take that? Not well. His initial response was that Iím telling him Iím move thousands of miles away and taking his daughter where he wonít see her very often.

I explained that how often Wolf sees either of us is up to her. That sheíll likely spend school times with one, and summer/holiday times with the other. I also pointed out that she may chose to switch whom she lives with during school times every other year. Wolf is old enough to think for herself and make that kind of decision. That ended that conversation. He canít point his finger at me as ďtaking Wolf from himĒ.

Overall there are still emotionally charged conversations happening, but there is less over the top anger on my part. This makes for a more productive conversation over all.

At this point I want Airyn to really think about his own options, and think about what his goals are. What does he hope to accomplish with moving out. Will he resurrect things with Chipmunk? Whom he has not seen/spoken (outside of one sent email) to in almost three weeks now. I want to know if he sees that is moving out is a place where we can be friends and co-parents, and that I wonít be interested in dating him while heís dating Chipmunk.

When will he move? Unknown he has to have more than one paycheck to move out, and we are still talking about it. He is still deciding what this will, or might mean for him.
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #187  
Old 09-21-2013, 02:31 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Well, I think I can safely say we here are all rooting for you to have an amicable and satisfying solution, and for you to be happy and feeling good about where your life is.
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Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me. ~Bryan Ferry
"Love is that condition in which another person's happiness is essential to your own." ~Robert Heinlein
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  #188  
Old 09-21-2013, 01:40 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Well, I think I can safely say we here are all rooting for you to have an amicable and satisfying solution, and for you to be happy and feeling good about where your life is.
There is still stress in my life, however Iím in a much healthier place then I was just a few months ago.
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #189  
Old 09-22-2013, 04:50 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56095

I donít feel up to responding directly to the thread in question, but felt I wanted to share a story of mine.


First: I have readily admitted to having a serious temper (anger management issues in the past that still occasionally pop up now and then). So basically I have a temper, and while I normally make an effort to keep it under control, Iím not always successful. Yes when my temper is uncontrolled I do see how I act as abusive to whom ever has incurred my wrath (justified or not). That being said I do normally keep control. Keeping control of myself is very important to me. I grew up in an environment where I had little to NO control of myself in ways that are not normal or healthy.

So here a story about anger, arguing, and how some people (ME) need an outlet like an argument.

Something happened and Iím not going to share the details. I talk to Airyn while heís working, he has no idea what prompted the situation that upset me.

Itís Sunday I meet Airyn on his way home, I have been out walking most of the day (one of the ways I expend my anger is exercise). We get home, and I canít sit still but still Iím angry over this. It feels from my position as if I am being lied to. (the issue had to do with Chipmunk, something she said/did) Airyn believes that Chipmunk is upset that he hasnít spoken to her since since Thursday. That she is doing/saying things right now to be mean, to find something to say that will hurt him, and will get him to talk to her.

I am pacing, and trying to argue with Airyn, but heís not responding, heís paying attention to something else. I sit down and tell Airyn that I canít argue with him while heís doing X, and ask him to stop doing X and pay attention. Airyn tells me that as soon as he realized I was angry he decided NOT to argue. I told him that wasnít fair (or maybe I said thatís not nice I donít remember), that was mean that I need to argue, Iím angry. (it was silly, not aggressive, or angry) We smile at each other, and Airyn moves to the bed, where we can actually sit beside each other. Again I attempt to say what I want/need to say. Again Airyn offers no response. Again I point that out and tell him that heís not arguing with me. Again I just get his smile. I sit there for a while, tell him I need a shower cause Iíve been walking all afternoon. But I donít get up, and after say 5 or 10 mins I look Airyn in the face and tell him that Iím still angry, and that this isnít working for me.

Finally I get to argue it out with him, but itís obvious his heart isnít in it. Thatís fine, it kept the whole thing light hearted. One of his responses had me smiling and calling him an ass, then playfully poping him with one of the pillows. Things went that way for a while, and when I felt better I got up to actually take my shower. Gave Airyn a hug, and thanked him for arguing with me. I also told him that I realize it wasnít easy for him to do, and that I appreciated that he did it for ME anyway.

Wolf heard parts of it and later told me she was confused, because we were arguing, laughing, and pillow fighting. I told her that I was angry, and Airyn didnít want to argue. That I asked him to argue with me because I was angry, but that he wasnít angry so that made it easy to keep things light, and add some playfulness to something that is often more aggressive. Something that I needed in that moment, that Airyn didnít need.

Airyn knows me, he knew that his responses were off the wall, silly, ect. But he participated in that way so that I could feel like I was getting the argument I wanted/needed and he could remain calm, and not get angry himself.

Those are the kinds of arguments I want not the ones that become abusive. The problem that I see is when one person (myself) gets angry the other person (Airyn) doesnít always know what to do/say. Or sometimes feels defensive about the topic for one reason or another (like feeling guilty). So even if Iím not using angry, mean, abusive language from the beginning. Even when my goal is just to get my anger out, the other person feels Attacked, and responds in kind. By attacking.

Before Chipmunk arguments between Airyn and I went more like the above. Where we argue, but laugh and giggle at the same time. With Chipmunkís involvement we have lost our ability to communicate what we need from the other person. This made our arguments since her arrival big deal issues, when they could have been minor, no big deal at all.

I could have come out and said to Airyn, ďHey Iím really angry right now, and NEED to argue, will you do that for me?Ē of course Airyn could also have remembered thatís how things were, and chosen not to take offense, not to feel attacked. But neither of these things happened while Chipmunk was so close (proximity on several levels/layers). Now that there is some little distance, and that distance has (very recently) begun growing (some of) these things are coming back to the front for Airyn and I.
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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  #190  
Old 09-22-2013, 07:17 PM
Numina Numina is offline
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Default Future reading material

http://nobo.komagata.net/pub/Komagata09-Xtachment.pdf
__________________
Bi-sexual female

Married to my high school sweat heart (20 year relationship). Talked about Poly, but put the idea off and had a kid instead. Stumbled into an FFM (Vee) that became an FMF (Vee).

No longer dateing my husbands Girlfriend.

Airyn: My husband (Straight)
Chipmunk: My x-GF, My husbands GF (Straight)
Wolf: my Daughter with Airyn
Boots: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
History: Social/Friend dating (Bi) Married
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age difference, ffm, fmf, third partner, triad fallout, triads

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