Advice on Sex parties and boundaries

[AutumnalTone]

Originally Posted by nondy2

Thanks. So I guess my question would be - do I need to allow my husband to go to sex parties and how do I deal with someone in our lives who has this as an important activity?

I'd say the most important thing to remember is that your husband doesn't need your permission to do anything--he's free to make his own choices at all times. I suspect a major component of the troubles you're having in dealing with this is a belief that he somehow needs your permission to do anything. Drop that dysfunctional belief and things get easier to handle.

What you can do is try to find out more details about the sex parties he attends and what those actually entail. That's how you begin to figure out how safely the party goers transact their business. You have concerns and you have a responsibility to address them in a reasonable fashion.

Once you have a good idea of how safe the party activities are, you may find your concerns lessened. Or heightened. It's at that point that you can make a cogent decision regarding your boundaries--what you'll accept and what you won't. Remember that you're not making decisions for him, just yourself.

As for dealing with her enjoying sex parties, well, that's your issue, entirely. She can enjoy what she wishes--doesn't require your permission. He can choose to get involved with whom he will--doesn't require your permission. You can voice your concerns and set out boundaries concerning you--don't ask you to attend, etc.--you just don't get to establish boundaries for him.

If he decides to continue to engage in things that you find highly objectionable, then you have the choice to continue in a relationship with him or not. That's what it always comes down to: We don't get to choose what our partners do, we only get to choose what we do.

I thought your other post to me was brutal and I reacted strongly. I am sorry. I am curious where the ethical line is - in poly it seems anything goes if you don't LIE and I'm not sure I agree with that.

The honesty is what allows poly folk to decide what they will do; we all can only make choices based on what we know. While that does allow "anything goes," that's the exact same situation that happens in monogamous relationships. The difference is that much happens in mono relationships that isn't known by everybody and some end up without all the knowledge necessary to making the best choices for themselves.

Healthy relationships all require the consent of everybody involved. If you think that at any time you have a right to remove consent from the equation--deciding what your partners may or may not do--then you've stepped away from having a healthy relationship. Relationships are healthy only when everybody involved is freely choosing what they do and choosing to stay in the relationship.

I suspect that you're having problems facing the fact that you might need to leave the relationship if he chooses to do things you find unacceptable. I'll suggest that being open to the possibility of a relationship ending is an important part of being ready for one at the outset.

[nondy2]

Whathappened.

You have given me a lot to think about. I respect you highly. I know that I am not going to be able to eradicate this person from my life- but I CAN and Will keep my distance and encourage him to tell his wife - I do have to say in his defense, we have only had sex once in four months, he's not just a horny dude! LOL. We both have conflicts about it. And I have examined many time how can I put my own needs over someone else's? That has seemed horrible to me, but hard to change.

Autmn - Allow was the wrong word. I am fully aware that I have to set my own boudaries and my husband is free to agree...or not. I do agree with WH that a life build on pleasure does not build character and keeps one a child, but again, it's not my place to pick whom my partner loves. It IS MY place not to have to clean everything, do childcare, and pay bills while my partner dances off with someone with no responsibilities.

THAT hmmmm is how the married guy and I connected, he also feels like he is the proactive one in that marriage (the adult?) and it's a burden we complain about together. But this has to be fixed between me and husband.

[SchrodingersCat]

Originally Posted by nondy2

Another issue is that I like his GF a lot. But I find her lifestyle immature (lives alone, not kids, no pets etc)

There's zero correlation between living alone with no kids or pets, and maturity. Many busy professionals live alone because they haven't had time to date or haven't found someone they like living with, or just plain prefer living alone. Same reason for having no kids. I don't see what pets could possibly have to do with maturity. I know lots of immature people with pets.

Calling someone immature for living alone with no kids or pets amounts to judging her by the standards you've set for your own life. "She's not like me, so she's immature."

For that matter, there are plenty of 16 year old parents who live with the father of their baby and two dogs. I would hardly call that a criteria for maturity.

Originally Posted by nondy2

This person is lovely so why would I care. The reason I care is because my husband is so passive and so forgetful, that I feel constantly burdened by running tho ngs- right or wrong-

Your husband is not passive and forgetful because of his girlfriend. If he's not carrying his share of the household burdens, then address that with him within your marriage. It's got nothing to do with her.

Originally Posted by nondy2

I feel like his girlfriend is another person who benefits by me 'running things" i.e. she never has to deal with his messes and all.

"Another person?" How many are there? Perhaps this is more your own issue than hers. If you're taking on more than your fair share, then it's your responsibility to address that within your own life. Possibly you have some codependency issues that could be addressed with some therapy.

Originally Posted by nondy2

1. Is it possible for two people who are so opposite to stay together? 2. Can I be more accepting of sex parities? Are they really more benign than I imagine? 3. How do I come to terms with not being jealous of the GF freedom?

1. Yes. My husband and I are polar opposites on all kinds of superficial issues. He votes Conservative, I'm a card carrying member of the Socialist Party of Canada. He tries to keep up with the Jones', I think the Jones are idiots. But we complement each other very well on a lot of important issues, and most important, we love each other and are willing to take the time to work through our differences. All that other stuff just gives us great debate fodder.

We're also different on some pretty important issues. I'm polyamorous, he's monoamorous. He likes casual sex, I only have intimate sex inside of relationships. We make it work.

2. That's all up to you. If you make up your mind not to accept them, then no you can't. If you're willing to be more open-minded and consider them within current reality instead of fears based on past experiences, then yes you can. Some are more benign than you imagine, some are probably worse than you can dream up. Do you trust your husband? Do you think he would enjoy something "horrible?" Have you spoken to him about what he does at these parties?

I don't really understand why it matters whether they have sex in front of strangers, or just in her apartment alone. It doesn't affect their safety. It doesn't affect you, except for how you allow your mind to worry about it.

3. You've got things she doesn't have. Sure, you don't have freedom. But you have security, intimacy, commitment...

Originally Posted by nondy2

I am NOT judging people who have sex parties. The make me uncomfortable and I don't want to be associated with them through my husband (I don't care what strangers do!) Why is this not an acceptable boundary?

It is, but you have to remember what a boundary means. It's something that you are not willing to put up with. But a boundary does not give you the right to tell someone else what they may and may not do. It only gives you the right to tell that person what your response will be if they do it. Even then, as we've been discussing in another thread, you have to be careful that it doesn't come to coersion: "Stop going to sex parties or I will leave you" is coersive.

Originally Posted by nondy2

Also, has anyone on here been close to someone who is a meth/orgy/sex addict, just curious.

Meth, orgy, and sex are three distinct and separate addictions. The fact that your friend happened to be both a meth addict and an orgy addict does not mean that the one is caused by the other, or even related. I've been close friends with a meth addict who has since quit. My husband and girlfriend were both sex addicts in their youth, but got help before I met them.

But nothing in your post leads me to believe that either your husband or his girlfriend is a sex addict. They simply enjoy sex. They're exhibitionists, which means they like it when other people watch them have sex. If your husband is able to agree to stop going to the parties just like that, and stick to it, then he's not addicted to sex parties.

[nondy2]

Thank you.

Since I wrote, my husband has decided not to go to sex parities because it is stepping over my boundaries. I am getting two different messages here : 1. Is you should have agreements and stick by them 2. You should not impose rules on a relationship. This is confusing.

As far as sex parties, I am very open-minded about other people. My reaction comes from a visceral, not academic nor moral stance. It is all my naive but I would ask, what is the diffence between a sex addict and people who gear their ives around sex parties and conventions. I ma trying to be open minded! I am trying to be cool with it.

My drama is not in the past. It is a very real present of many friends whose lives have been distoyed but orgies and AIDS and multiple partners - three a night! You said, thiere are extreme cases I could not even imagine. Unfortuealy, I have heard the most brutal stories - my friend doing meth and getting fucked for 20 hrs by guy after guy, his boyfriend being brutally raped, beaten, and covered with shit when going to a hook up, etc. IAM STUPID but it is viscerally hard for me to distinguish these meetings between that and going to sex parties. I also believe the hetrosexual community is very nonchalant about HIV. Maybe I'm wrong - but most people I've met don't know what "are you negative means" and it's still an akward question. I am prepared to be wrong though!

You have to understand that I am coming from a Catholic background and great trama. Perhaps all the sex positive people who arr comfortable with 'anything goes" have not been witness to people dying of AIDS and so on. I Don't know what makes someone comfortable with their partner engaging in any form of sex...

As far as maturity, I do believe that having to answer to something (anything) besides a job, makes a person mature and makes life deeper. I think many people live like 25 yr olds catering to only their needs. They haver every right to do so, but because of my own maturity (growing up disabled, watching family and friends die, raising a child) I guess I am (unfairly) impatient. & much of my maturity I did not choose, I didn't chose to be disabled and deal with endless prejudice, I didn't chose to have my father abandon me at 6... etc.
Thanks for listening.

[SchrodingersCat]

Originally Posted by nondy2

Since I wrote, my husband has decided not to go to sex parities because it is stepping over my boundaries. I am getting two different messages here : 1. Is you should have agreements and stick by them 2. You should not impose rules on a relationship. This is confusing.

The way I think of it is this...

Boundaries and agreements are given a lot of thought by both parties, and the person making the agreement is doing so because they feel compassion for the other person's perspective. They do not feel forced into the agreement.

"Rules" amount to coercion. Usually, in a marriage, it takes one of two forms. The extreme form is "Do this, or I will leave you." The less extreme form is "Do this, or I will be so rotten that you'll wish you'd listened." Either form can be explicit or implied.

Originally Posted by nondy2

As far as sex parties, I am very open-minded about other people. My reaction comes from a visceral, not academic nor moral stance. It is all my naive but I would ask, what is the diffence between a sex addict and people who gear their ives around sex parties and conventions. I ma trying to be open minded! I am trying to be cool with it.

It's like the difference between a wine aficionado and an alcoholic.

The first appreciates a fine wine, travels the world to visit exquisite vinyards, even spends thousands of dollars on wine tasting events, and hundreds of dollars on single bottles of wine. But he is generally a healthy, well-adjusted person who just happens to really enjoy fine wine.

The second is drinking alcohol to escape their problems and is exhibiting signs of addictive behaviour.

You can be addicted to anything. The telltale sign is whether it affects your ability to function normally in your day to day life.

Some people are addicted to video games; others design video games for a living. One is a harmful addiction, the other is gainful employment. It's not the subject matter that counts, it's why you do it that's important. Gearing your life around something doesn't necessarily mean you're addicted to it.

Originally Posted by nondy2

My drama is not in the past. It is a very real present of many friends whose lives have been distoyed but orgies and AIDS and multiple partners - three a night! You said, thiere are extreme cases I could not even imagine. Unfortuealy, I have heard the most brutal stories - my friend doing meth and getting fucked for 20 hrs by guy after guy, his boyfriend being brutally raped, beaten, and covered with shit when going to a hook up, etc. IAM STUPID but it is viscerally hard for me to distinguish these meetings between that and going to sex parties. I also believe the hetrosexual community is very nonchalant about HIV. Maybe I'm wrong - but most people I've met don't know what "are you negative means" and it's still an akward question. I am prepared to be wrong though!

I'm so sorry to hear that, and I can totally understand where your aversion to sex parties comes from.

When you said your husband was going to sex parties, I understood it to mean he was going with his girlfriend and they were only having sex with each other. If they're having sex with everyone with no protection, then of course you wouldn't want him to go, it affects your personal safety. But if that's the case, then why aren't you asking him to stop seeing her all together? After all, if she's doing that and then sleeping with your husband, he's at just as much risk as if he was there himself.

I'm only 30, so I grew up during the dawn of the HIV/AIDS epidemic. "USE CONDOMS OR YOU WILL DIE" was drilled into my head before I really knew what sex was. Free condoms were everywhere. So I wouldn't say that it's a heterosexual thing, I would say it's an older people thing. Especially people who were married through the worst of the AIDS epidemic, so it wasn't even on their radar... and now they're divorced and back in the dating scene, and never really caught on that besides AIDS, there are about a hundred STIs you can get, many of which are incurable.

And actually, HIV is one of the less dangerous infections these days. They have anti-virals now that can keep a person from ever developing AIDS. But herpes has no cure and can be transmitted even with condoms.

So when people ask me "Are you negative" I say "Yes, but for what in particular?" Well no one actually asks me that, but that's what I would say.

Originally Posted by nondy2

You have to understand that I am coming from a Catholic background and great trama. Perhaps all the sex positive people who arr comfortable with 'anything goes" have not been witness to people dying of AIDS and so on. I Don't know what makes someone comfortable with their partner engaging in any form of sex...

Ironically, the Catholic church is one of the worst causes for people not using condoms. The Catholic schools in my city have the highest incidence of teen pregnancy and STIs, because they teach absolutely nothing about safe sex. So the kids don't know about condoms, or worse they think that condoms are sinful... but teenage hormones being what they are, they have sex anyway.

My husband enjoys casual sex. He's been doing it for years. At first, I was super uncomfortable with even the idea, because I share your fears about HIV, and other STIs. But then I realized... My husband isn't an idiot and I trust him. He's had sex with so many people, many of them strangers... If he didn't know how to practice safe sex, he wouldn't have made it this far with clean test results. So what makes me comfortable with my husband engaging in any form of sex? The fact that I didn't marry a moron.

Originally Posted by nondy2

As far as maturity, I do believe that having to answer to something (anything) besides a job, makes a person mature and makes life deeper. I think many people live like 25 yr olds catering to only their needs. They haver every right to do so, but because of my own maturity (growing up disabled, watching family and friends die, raising a child) I guess I am (unfairly) impatient. & much of my maturity I did not choose, I didn't chose to be disabled and deal with endless prejudice, I didn't chose to have my father abandon me at 6... etc.
Thanks for listening.

Of the people I've met, the most mature don't feel the need to broadcast how mature they are and how mature other people are not. Nothing personal, it's just an observation from my life. I don't know you, so I'm not making any claims about your maturity, and please don't take that personally.

I think some people confuse independence with maturity. Having to take care of yourself teaches you independence. But judging people for their life choices is not a sign of maturity, I'm sorry to say. I know lots of people who have gone through all kinds of trauma and challenge, and they're not a bit mature for it.

If you became mature after all that, it's in spite of those challenges, not because of them. It's because you chose to grow-up rather than let those things leave you stuck in the mud. In other words, if you're mature, I wouldn't give the credit to your challenges. Take full credit yourself, for learning from those challenges. Not everybody does.

I see nothing immature in prioritizing one's own needs. Indeed, I see that as a sign of maturity. No one else is going to take care of you.

[CielDuMatin]

Originally Posted by nondy2

I am getting two different messages here : 1. Is you should have agreements and stick by them 2. You should not impose rules on a relationship. This is confusing.

Well, different people do things different ways, of course, but let me see if I can rephrase to become clearer.

A relationship is an agreement. Part of an agreement are terms and conditions. (What some people refer to as "rules" and "boundaries".) These are negotiated as part of the agreement. It is not telling someone how to act, it is saying that in order to live up to the agreement, they need to act this way. If they choose not to, then that invalidates the agreement.

Some people prefer to have less rules and boundaries in their relationship, some need more. There is no right or wrong way in this - it's down to the needs of the individuals involved.

While discussing the terms of a relationship, it often helps if the individual boundaries are thoroughly discussed, rather than just being stated. This helps folks understand the reason why something is required to be in place, and investigate other ways in which the underlying factors can be satisfied.

In this case, the advice to investigate what your concerns are about sex parties would be highly relevant. Come up with concrete reasons why they are a problem for you, and explain that to your partner.

[nondy2]

Thank you guys. I do understand. I do need the be direct about one thing:


"And actually, HIV is one of the less dangerous infections these days. They have anti-virals now that can keep a person from ever developing AIDS. But herpes has no cure and can be transmitted even with condoms."

This is not true! I have had friends die of AIDS in the last three years. No one has died from herpes, ever that I know. The vaccines are JUST being developed.

I don't know if this is common knowledge, but the HIV medication literary changes a person's body structure. I can tell from a few week away whether some one is positive and has been on meds for a while. The meds create fatty wasting in your cheeks and waist. As a consequecence, many men with HIV routinely get plastic surgery injections. No people don't die that often of AIDS anymore (although my friend did!) but HIV medication is not like taking an aspirin or anti-depressants. They cause drastic bodily issues.

I think you are right in saying it's an age thing. I told a 24 year old recently that I asked a potential lover what his HIV status was and he told me "you can't ask that!" O REALLY? I can't/shouldn't ask a potential lover if he had an HIV test, huh?

I do think the pos/neg thing is something hetrosexualsdon't know about. When you say "your status" or pos/neg in the gay world, it does mean HIV. There was even a magazine called POZ.

I'm sorry to get on a soap box, but your comment made me very nervous. OK, I know nothing about sex parties, and who is/isn't mature is a matter of opinion. But, this is something I do know about and have experienced (very) first hand.

[Vixtoria]

Originally Posted by nondy2

Thank you guys. I do understand. I do need the be direct about one thing:

I don't know if this is common knowledge, but the HIV medication literary changes a person's body structure. I can tell from a few week away whether some one is positive and has been on meds for a while. The meds create fatty wasting in your cheeks and waist. As a consequecence, many men with HIV routinely get plastic surgery injections. No people don't die that often of AIDS anymore (although my friend did!) but HIV medication is not like taking an aspirin or anti-depressants. They cause drastic bodily issues.

Actually, MOST medications change your body. I'm on medications that do and they have NOTHING to do with AIDS. As a matter of fact, one is an antidepressant.

I do think the pos/neg thing is something hetrosexualsdon't know about. When you say "your status" or pos/neg in the gay world, it does mean HIV. There was even a magazine called POZ.

I'm sorry to get on a soap box, but your comment made me very nervous. OK, I know nothing about sex parties, and who is/isn't mature is a matter of opinion. But, this is something I do know about and have experienced (very) first hand.

I think your experience is limited. You saw a friend die of AIDS. So you have first hand experience. Honestly, a lot of people do. I'm betting you would find quite a few people around here that not only have first hand experience in multiple cases (As I do), but also have more experience in the queer community. (As I do)

I think you generalize things WAY too much. I've been following both your threads and while I get that you have some experiences in your life, good and bad. Had to grow up fast, and lived through quite a few traumatic experiences. Again, you are not the only one. How you learn from them and grow is telling of you as a person. My mother, for example, has been through much of what I have and yet still has the mentality of a teenager. It might help you to realize that your experiences are not the only ones. That the conclusions you draw from your experiences are not the only ones.

I have probably had much of the same experiences, judging by your comments, and I have not drawn nearly the same conclusions you have regarding sex, AIDS, or maturity. You are going to get differing opinions on here because everyone has different experiences and learns different things from them. It's not wrong, just different. One of the first things to learn here is that your experiences are not THE experiences, your conclusions are not THE conclusions and your way is not THE way. It's just a way.

[nondy2]

Ok, I'm going to get off because I am getting attacked.

I was responding directly to someone's post who seemed to say that being HIV is no big deal. I know that it is. No, my experience in NOT limited. I have at least four close friends who at pos - two of which are leading HIV workers- once was a top person at GMHC, and now has a fellowship with Harvard. I'm experience in this area is NOT limited. I may get some FACTS wrong but I'm not totally off base. I do not know of other medications, other than cancer and MS and such that completely ravage the body. Being HIV positive changes your entire existence. It is something you have to disclose in every sexual situation. It affects who will be your partner (some neg people won't date pos people). It affects whether you have children. I DO NOT KNOW if sperm carries over. A Pos woman can have a NEG child, but HIV is passed through breast milk, so the mother either has to be on rigid meds before birth for this one thing or not breast feed.

Ok , think I'm stupid, whatever. But when someone says having HIV is complible to herpes, I'm going to speak up. HIV is still a life-threatening illness that is managed by a life of rigid drugs. Unless the drugs have changed (maybe they have?) they do literally change the physical appearance of the body (on of my friends gets facial injections every six months to hide the creases in his face and many of his friends do as well (he's in the beauty business so he speaks openly about it).

[Vixtoria]

I'm sorry if you feel you were attacked. What I was trying to get across to you is that your experiences are yours. Not everyone's. They aren't any more valid then mine or anyone else's. If you limit your view of the world to only what you have experienced you are going to find people disagree.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match over who has more experience with AIDS and death. There's no point. I know what I have experienced and lived through. I don't know what you have or others have. So I give validity to their experiences and understand that my reaction isn't the only one.

All I meant to get you to understand that your view is just yours. Period. Not everyone has to share it and if they don't it is NOT because they are lacking in experience. It is NOT that you know more, are more mature, or have lived through more. It's not a badge of honor that you have lived through bad things. It doesn't make you better, or your opinion have more weight then others. If someone disagrees with you it's not because they are wrong and just don't know as much as you. And it doesnt' mean that YOU are wrong. It means they have different experiences and have gotten different things from them.

Part of being open minded is knowing that and accepting it without thinking someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong. Just, different.

Sorry, I think I got upset because I likened it to the person who claims they CAN"T be racist because they know black people. Which really has nothing to do with it.