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  #41  
Old 06-24-2010, 04:40 PM
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Matilda Matilda is offline
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Purely for clarification purposes:
imo, this relationship (myself and "monounsaturated") is quite messed up enough without bringing anyone else into it.

As I've said before, if it was purely up to me, from day one it would have been a one-guy-one-gal wholly exclusive monogamous relationship.

Over the years I've been nudged to the side countless times whilst my husband made relationships (online and phone based for the most part) with other people when it was extremely clear at the time that I could tolerate that or 'lose' him. I've never had any reservations or problems with him making friends outside of me...the difficulty came (again and again) because when he likes a person he wants to like every part of them and invariably pushes friendship and platonic affection into a sexually-based relationship.

To me, having a 'friend' that you're merrily calling up for phonesex isn't part of "monogamy" - and for years and years he honestly didn't understand what my 'issue' was with that... because to him I was being unfair by ENCOURAGING him to make friends but then getting upset when he wanted to meet them for coffee-and-maybe-sex-we'll-see-how-it-goes. To my mind that's not the same as 'friends' ( remember we were meant to be a mono couple).

I was never, ever, ever, okay with him having a sexual relationship (be it cybersex, phonesex, webcamming or meeting up) and he knew this, and subsequently 'hid' that aspect of his 'friendships' from me because he realised how upset I got when I found out about it. I felt cheated on, simple as. I should state, as far as I KNOW he never went through with actually meeting anybody physically for sex because I found out in advance (helpful-dumbass-me-here booked the hotel for the woman involved, and when he said he was intending to meet up with her there, and I asked why, you can imagine my hurt and heartbreak at the reply - so it didn't happen)

Maybe that's why he's never liked the idea of me having friends.
If he GENUINELY cannot distinguish between "platonic" friendships and "sexual" friendships - and just figures a "friend you meet for a coffee" is the same as "a friend that you meet for sex" ...perhaps he felt justified in getting rid of anyone who liked me in some sort of retaliation for my being upset with him when he wanted to engage in sexual acts with people outside of our marriage.

Uch. This is such a mess. Does that read as pure naivity?
Surely it's not unreasonable for me to believe that sex isn't the logical conclusion of making friends with people? If that were the case, everyone would be having sex with half the town, and that would be crazy.

I'm second-guessing myself again now.
Maybe his definition of making friends is just a cover-up for him unfairly vetoing my friendships. Maybe by him saying "platonic" and "sexual" friendships are the very same to him, it justifies his behaviour all these years.
Hell, I don't know.

Tomorrow morning, we're going to look into counselling. I think it's required.

Last edited by Matilda; 06-24-2010 at 04:44 PM.
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  #42  
Old 06-24-2010, 05:00 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Wow Matilda, from your posts here you seem like someone who has her head screwed on straight in spite of everything you're going through.

I think there are a lot of people who would envy your strength and clarity of thought. Of course, I don't know you in real life. You could be an insufferable cream-puff for all I know, but I'm going by what I see in writing.
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  #43  
Old 06-24-2010, 05:22 PM
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Matilda Matilda is offline
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You get hugged for that YGirl.
You just made me laugh out loud - and I needed to laugh out loud.

I'm hereby embracing the notion that I could be an insufferable cream-puff!

Last edited by Matilda; 06-24-2010 at 05:25 PM.
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  #44  
Old 06-24-2010, 07:39 PM
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redsirenn redsirenn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matilda View Post

His blog on here 'reads' right to me, but it's like it's written by a man I don't see day-to-day here.
I'm trying to see past the anger and the disappointment to what he manages to word calmly when he writes down what he's thinking.
Maybe he *does* want me to be happy. Maybe he *is* accepting that things have to change.
I guess I'm just so familiar with the cycle of "promise everything, deliver nothing" for 15 years, I've become less gullible, and more cynical?
Wow - So much of what you have written resonates with me.

I was in an "abusive" relationship and marriage for 8 years. This man sounds like my ex. It started slowly, with small gestures and comments that seemed to poke fun at me. I always shook them off, although I was constantly questioning myself and wondering if I was "crazy".
There was a time when I came to the realization after a trip to visit some old friends that I may have been in an abusive relationship. I brought this up to him and he became so defensive, telling me I was wrong, crazy, it was nonsense, etc.
Over time, my brain became trained to block out my own intuition. The abuse slowly became worse, and he was constantly having the same kind of affairs you describe in your posts. Eventually he acted on them physically. I found out, and he just made me feel like it was my fault. He asked me to accept other women into our marriage. "Concubines" was the word he used. It was humiliating to me. He lied constantly, either by omission or to my face. It got to a point when it didn't matter what he said, I was always questioning him, and myself. Eventually, the abuse also became physical.
I found myself even questioning if the bruises were real - he had me completely brainwashed.
I sought help online first, ashamed of my marriage and myself.
He was "scared" just like your husband, of my new support. Saying exactly what you typed above. He cut me off from people and support so slowly over the years, that when I began to find them again, he was terrified that he wouldn't be able to control me anymore.
He wrote me things that sounded so good on paper... things that he discussed with my family, our therapist, etc. all sounded "right". BUT I didn't feel it. I got so used to him NEVER following through and making me feel good - always knowing that he would not live up to my expectations - remember my birthday, send me a love letter, make me feel special, that I gave up and a piece of me died inside. I remember that exact moment and how hopeless I felt. I thought I would never be happy again, that I didn't deserve love... That the love I read about, and was so sure existed was a naivety.
Well - Guess what - it was NOT.

My friends got me out of this mess after I so casually laughed off a bruise on my arm that I had been covering with makeup. They got angry for me. They pulled me out, not even listening to my nonsense and supported me through a divorce that I thought would kill me.

Now - I feel like myself again. I have been working very hard to gain my intuition back, to stand up for myself, to have a network of friends that care about me deeply, that I can talk honestly with.

And - without even expecting it, I have an amazing man by my side that makes me feel special. This is possible because I realized I had to take charge of my life - that I was responsible for my happiness. Ouroboros and I talk about our relationship, we analyze it together and apart, we are both interested in opening it up, healthfully, and honestly. We take time so we can each process our feelings. My friends actually love him too - something I have never felt before.

I truly want him to be happy, not because I should feel that way about my SO, but because he deserves it.

So - I guess what I am trying to say here is:
1) you are not alone.
2) you are doing great by analyzing how you feel, and questioning it.
3) If your husband cannot give you what you need, there is happiness around the bend - waiting for you if you reach for it.

RS
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  #45  
Old 06-24-2010, 08:25 PM
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Matilda Matilda is offline
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Thank you for sharing your story with me RS. I read it all, I promise I did, and I hear what you're saying. If it's okay with you, I'll take the following, cut and paste, and bring them about with me in my mind for the next little while:

"I thought I would never be happy again, that I didn't deserve love... That the love I read about, and was so sure existed was a naivety.
Well - Guess what - it was NOT."


" I realized I had to take charge of my life - that I was responsible for my happiness."

I don't want to give up on getting my "Happy Ever After"... I just understand now that it's something you have to work on making happen day after day and not expect will just fall into your lap because you deserve it. Doing that's like expecting the bull not to charge simply because you happen to be a vegetarian, right?
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  #46  
Old 06-25-2010, 06:16 AM
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I am so, so, sooooooo exhausted tired.
I wasn't 'allowed' to sleep last night, because every time I drifted off, my husband woke me again to demand decisions I can't give him yet.

Last night he seemed to be in a rational place, and we were talking in what I felt was a very positive and productive way. It felt hopeful. He set out that he loved me and was 'in love' with me, but he said he understood that given his behaviour over the past decade and a half that I was wholly within my rights to tell him I wanted him out of my life entirely. Of course, I don't want that. I don't know *what* I want, but I know I don't want that. We agreed to make a 'new' framework - admitted that the marriage we went into 'as kids ourselves' hadn't worked, acknowledged that we needed to build ourselves as 2 unique people... and THEN we'd be in a position to make a new framework, and build a relationship based on who we are now, whether that was as a couple or as friends or as whatever. I went to bed.

I was barely asleep when he woke me up. He was upset, and needed clarification. Was I poly? Did I want other partners? I said, in all honesty, that I needed sleep, and as far as I was concerned I was still cut out for monogamy, but I needed to figure out who I was. He wanted a clearcut answer. 3am and he's looking for cut-and-dried guarantees, when I really needed to sleep. I said I didn't *know* who I am, for all I know, I could be suited to being mono or poly or a nun - I had no answers for him.

For the past 13 years or so, I've been bleeding my heart and soul into a relationship where I was the only one who was committed to 'making it work'. Now that I take a step back, *now* he needs guarantees.

I've spent the night in a state of distress, pleading with him to allow me to sleep, whilst he went up and downstairs getting increasingly annoyed and frustrated with my inability to say "yes, I think we should be a couple". He seems to belive that now that he has suddenly decided what the problem is (his self-esteem) that I should now know precisely who I am and get right back to where I was before, being the good little wifey and smiling and nodding and going along with whatever his whim is this time. I can't do that now. I'm not saying I'm ruling out the possibility of reconciliation, but he's talking and acting like it's a fait accomplit that we're "happily married" again now, and we can put all this 'finding ourselves' nonsense under the rug again.

I can't do that. That's hypocrisy to me. I don't know how I feel because I don't know who I am, and the *reason* for that is the treatment of the past 15 years of my life. I'm not the same person I was before.

He flits from being supportive and understanding to outright demanding and making grandiose statements about not being able to live without me and never being capable of loving anyone else - and I'm meant to shoulder that responsibility at 3am, 4am, 5am - whilst I try to sort my own feelings out?
It's like the more I need 'space' to think, he tighter he clings on to me, and the tighter he clings and the more intense his demands get, the more I desperately need that space.
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  #47  
Old 06-25-2010, 01:29 PM
EugenePoet EugenePoet is offline
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It sounds like the psychological tension is awfully intense. When people can't sleep -- his turmoil is keeping him awake, and he's not disciplined enough to at least let you sleep -- then things can blow up. Tempers flare, judgment fails, self-control vanishes.

Please be careful, I know you are, but it's very worrying to read what you're going through.

I don't think the two of you should be going through this on your own. If you don't have a therapist, get one ASAP. If nothing else, a well-experience therapist will have seen so many variations on human difficulties that she has a wide and deep perspective very few of us can match. She can warn you about pitfalls, clarify misunderstandings, and bring deeper understanding of psychological drives and needs.

Find a therapist, find one quickly. You should not go through this without help.
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  #48  
Old 06-25-2010, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matilda View Post
To me, having a 'friend' that you're merrily calling up for phonesex isn't part of "monogamy" - and for years and years he honestly didn't understand what my 'issue' was with that... because to him I was being unfair by ENCOURAGING him to make friends but then getting upset when he wanted to meet them for coffee-and-maybe-sex-we'll-see-how-it-goes. To my mind that's not the same as 'friends' ( remember we were meant to be a mono couple).

Uch. This is such a mess. Does that read as pure naivity?
Surely it's not unreasonable for me to believe that sex isn't the logical conclusion of making friends with people? If that were the case, everyone would be having sex with half the town, and that would be crazy.
You're completely right. Friendship does not mean sex, there's no naiveté there. It's not to say there aren't friends who do have sex, but sex is not an automatic part of friendship. Otherwise straight people would have no same-sex friends, and coffee houses would provide condoms at the door and beds in the back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matilda View Post
I am so, so, sooooooo exhausted tired.
I wasn't 'allowed' to sleep last night, because every time I drifted off, my husband woke me again to demand decisions I can't give him yet.
This is completely unacceptable. I understand that he's having trouble sleeping, his 3 a.m. posts prove that. But your troubles cannot get better if both of you are trying to deal with them on zero sleep. Your mind needs rest in order to function.

To me, this feels like one more grasp at controlling you.
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  #49  
Old 06-26-2010, 08:58 AM
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Matilda Matilda is offline
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I've slept, and sleeping is good. Yesterday we made progress...strange progress, scary progress, but definate progress.

Lots of talking and heartspilling and reflection led to us agreement to separate. We're sorting out counselling for both of us, and although we're in the same house, we're focusing on building ourselves as people.

The official line is that we're "very much a family, just not a couple" - and once we work though all of our personal issues and relationship problems, we should be in a better position to work out who we are, what each of us wants and needs, and where we need to go from there.

In the meantime, I'll sort out things I need to make me more 'me'...simple things like a bank account, a driving permit, a mobile phone.

I'm nervous, and I'm upset, but I also feel immense relief. Taking off my rings was like undoing manacles, they've come to signify the loss of my own identity so much. Things are difficult, but less tense. I feel hopeful where before I felt desperate. I don't know where I'm going, but I welcome the journey.
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  #50  
Old 06-26-2010, 06:27 PM
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good for you.

It sounds like you are on the right track. It is important to take time to find yourself again, otherwise no reconciliation is possible.

I completely understand how you could feel relief. Remembering what it feels like to do something you know is right for you is important to regaining your intuition and acting upon it

Wish you both the best.

RS
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