Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > Poly Relationships Corner

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 09-25-2012, 07:44 AM
Invi Invi is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 30
Default

Opening started two or three months after I moved here, shortly before I got pregnant, or at least before we knew. There wasn't really any opening. there was, we were (I assume, having asked him on multiple occasions while we were dating and living apart if we were exclusive) closed, and then we were not. I think Opening implies a process. We didn't really have that.

PPD could be playing a part in it, but who knows? I've had some of the symptoms off and on. It's hard to say what could be PPD triggered in part by stress, or stress from PPD.
Kid is just turning 5 months.

He's not expecting me to just do it on my own, but he can't be giving me constant reassurance either, and sometimes I need more than he is comfortable with. He thinks it starts to sound contrived.
Poor communication is a major issue.
I don't think he's willing to start over and go into this slowly, so it seems like a lost cause, or a lot of discomfort on both of our sides for a long time to get to a better place.

He already says he sees me being bitter towards him, so I don't know what else to do.



I don't know if this is salvageable. I desire more absolutes and structure than he is willing to provide or deal with.
When I discuss boundary agreements with him, he says he'll try, but will make no promises.

He won't promise me a night between dates to reconnect; he'll try.
He won't promise to schedule and let me know about dates at least a day ahead of time; he'll try.

He's usually good about these things, but he's ignored both of them at least once.
I also may have some trust issues with him due to a lie and a lie of omission regarding some girls he was seeing. I know in your world that's a 1-strike kind of thing. These were fairly complicated circumstances, at least with the latter, so I've given him a little slack with it. Forgiven, not forgotten kind of thing.

I'm feeling calmer now, and thus less likely to dwell on leaving, but I think perhaps I should. If he thinks I'm not making any progress and my pace is too slow and all I do is wallow in self pity, then I don't think there's much changing his mind. I can't control my emotions, I can only work on this so fast. I'd gladly buy a switch to turn off the upset, but unfortunately, it doesn't exist. It's a day by day process of reassuring myself and examining why something bothers me (which is incredibly difficult for me) and telling myself why it shouldn't.
As I said before, I see couples on here with a mono partner that has taken years to achieve acceptance of their partner's polyamory. I guess he's not able to wait that long.

Last edited by Invi; 09-25-2012 at 07:47 AM. Reason: retracting details, PM if you feel you need to know.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-25-2012, 12:01 PM
Becca Becca is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 37
Default

This is just my impressions (I am jumping a little broadly to some conclusions, and could be way off).

I see two things, here. One, he really doesn't seem to be doing enough to manage the complexity of being a poly-oriented person negotiating an open relationship with a monogamous partner. He seems to be avoiding some important compromises.

Two, he's not doing well in the dating realm. Rejection leads to insecurity, which leads to more rejection.

Perhaps he really lacks some basic ability to connect, to be sensitive to another person's moods, to listen, to be open. This is something I see in a variety of circumstances, from people who are just naturally very self-focused due to insecurity, to people with something more complicated going on like Aspergers.

To your original post, I was just going to say that he must be experiencing some insecurity due to the regular rejection he's been facing. As I read your follow up posts, though, it sounds like his insecurity is having a bigger impact on your relationship than just him moping around. I don't have any great advice on what to do with this information (or possible information), but think about how it impacts your connection with him.

And do keep in mind that he's facing more rejection than he's probably used to. However well his dating life went when he was a bit younger and single, he is going to have a harder time now that he's can only date women who are okay with him being poly. Smaller pool. And rejection after rejection is probably causing his ego to take a hit, and he may not know how to process that.

But if you're at the point where you're considering leaving, then you have a big decision to make, where you need to think about your own needs, and not about what it takes to comfort him.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-25-2012, 01:24 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,595
Default

I am VERY sorry you are going through this. I apologize in advance if what I write is Hard to Hear.

Your situation disturbs me though. You deserve better treatment.

So I'm going to just spit it out. I hope it helps you. It is not meant to hurt you more. I can see you hurt as it is. Again, I am sorry you are going through this.

Quote:
Opening started two or three months after I moved here, shortly before I got pregnant, or at least before we knew. There wasn't really any opening. I think Opening implies a process. We didn't really have that.
So he just DECIDED? One day? BAM! We are Open? That's not ethical. You cannot make unilateral decisions in a couplehood!

Quote:
He's not expecting me to just do it on my own, but he can't be giving me constant reassurance either, and sometimes I need more than he is comfortable with. He thinks it starts to sound contrived.
These things you want are NOT constant reassurance or contrived. They sound like reasonable things/boundaries to me. If anything they are very little and incomplete! Look at it written out in plain english:
I want more absolutes and structure for the first year of Open Marriage so I can know what is happening when so I can transition well. Things like...

FOR MY MENTAL WELL BEING
  • Poor communication is a major issue. (Lack of responsiveness a problem)
    • When I ask him what is wrong, I want a response. I do not want information withheld.
    • I want to know about dates at least a day ahead of time
    • When I voice a need, concern, or request -- I want a response. I do not want to be put off with "I'll try" or dropping the subject entirely
  • I want boundary agreements made with me

FOR MY EMOTIONAL WELL BEING
  • I want date aftercare such as a night between dates to reconnect with me
  • I want date with just ME so we can maintain our own relationship tier

FOR MY PHYSICAL WELL BEING
  • sex health info? You do not even mention it. Is he going bareback? Making kids elsewhere? Catching cooties he could give you?
  • postpartum needs? PPD?
  • Help with childcare so you are not running ragged with a newborn?

FOR MY SPIRITUAL WELL BEING
  • what?

WHAT I AM WILLING TO PUT IN
  • I am willing to try, even though it was not a process of Opening and thrust upon me.
  • I am willing to ask about how things are going in his dating life even though I find it awkward
  • I have/have not been given a list of his wants, needs, limits that I could be DOING to help this couplehood transition well. (Not feeling, DOING)

WHAT HE IS WILLING TO PUT IN
  • At this time, he is not willing to communicate clearly or make time to work on us to help me articulate my wants, needs, and limits to Transition Well
  • He is not willing provide or deal with things like honoring my wants, needs, limits that I have articulated by myself so far to help me Transition Well.
  • His freedom to do whatever, whenever is more important to him than any one person, I think, and if he feels like I am asking him to do things that restrict that freedom, I don't think I have a place here. (puts his needs and comfort first)
This is bad/disturbing behavior:
  • makes no effort to relieve my isolation
  • controls all the money
  • Has lied to me twice (direct lie and lie of omission)
  • he thinks I'm not making any progress and my pace is too slow and all I do is wallow in self pity (blaming YOU when he does not change HIS behaviour to help smooth the way?)
  • Ignores my requests (to work on us, slow down the pace, things listed above in boundaries, etc.)
  • "it seems like you're always upset with me and I can't be around all that negativity," (considers you calling him into account you being "negative?" How about owning your own behavior and acknowledging it hurt your partner?)

Quote:
It's a day by day process of reassuring myself and examining why something bothers me and telling myself why it shouldn't.
It just DOES bother you. Feelings are feelings. Those cannot be changed or controlled -- they just bubble up when they do. Stop trying to convince yourself you should not feel what you feel.

What CAN be changed is BEHAVIOR. So what situation caused the feeling to bubble up? What behavior on his part/your part can be changed next time? To see if the same feeling bubbles up or not?

For example, he doesn't give you a 24 hr heads up on a date. So that can disturb your household routine -- at the very least plans for making you guys dinner and expecting no parent help at all that night. (This is fresh.)

He will not provide aftercare time to reconnect with you after the dates. (This is neglecting current established partner.)

If you bring this to his attention and you get a response like "I can't deal with your negativity?" (This is avoidy blameshifting.)

How are you supposed to feel anything but unappreciated/ devalued in that situation? (You can't feel happy here -- that's for sure!)

And this is YOU not progressing fast enough to embrace polyamory? Why would you embrace this new relationship model? When you yourself are not being shown loving behavior? Who runs to embrace being treated badly?

Quote:
As I said before, I see couples on here with a mono partner that has taken years to achieve acceptance of their partner's polyamory. I guess he's not able to wait that long.
More like he's not willing to change his behavior to help you any. He's not being the best partner ever here when he neglects you. He's not interested in being a good partner here and there is no relationship here that feeds you. That alone is enough to leave -- there is no relationship that feeds you here.

But this whole thing smells weirder and weirder to me. I cannot tell from over Internet if you are being gaslighted or made to think it is all you or what. Only you know what is going on over there. But your situation is red flagging me. Please be careful over there.

Check the Speak Out Loud list. Take it to highlighter. See if anything else on there rings a bell. I'm not saying you are being emotionally / mentally abused. I would not wish it on anyone! But that may help you see more clearly if you are being played.

If you end up with a lot of yellow highlighter all over the place? Don't walk to leave. RUN! Call mom to rescue you and get out safely.

Quote:
I'm feeling calmer now, and thus less likely to dwell on leaving, but I think perhaps I should.
I think so too! He's not playing fair or ethically. Ugh. He's sounding weird. If he's just not willing to adapt his behavior, you are only going to get more of the same treatment. This is NOT what good polyamory is to me. I am so sorry your first experience of "polamory" is less than ethical and loving and possibly edging into the land of abuse.

I am very glad you are in good communication with your mother though. I think your instinct to get out is right. GO! Call mom! Protect you and the kid!

You deserve to be treated nicely in your relationships. Remember you have dignity, worth, and value even if you are being poorly treated right now.

hugs,

GalaGirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 09-25-2012 at 03:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-25-2012, 02:00 PM
WhatHappened WhatHappened is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 503
Default

A number of things about your story scream classic abuser.
  • You're isolated.
  • He doesn't want you involved in the finances.
  • He has decided he'll come and go as he pleases.
  • Any probem you have with his behavior and treatment of you, he is turning around and telling you it's your flaws, insecurities, faults, contrivances, etc.
  • It bothers me greatly that amidst the financial issues, he has money to date other women but won't even commit to taking you out.

This guy is neglecting you, doing as he damn well pleases, ignoring any needs you might have, and he's got you trying to help him cope with his poor little wounded heart because women are blowing him off. Maybe they see something in him that turns them off? I know I do.

I see a lot of my 23 year marriage in what you're describing. Great guy. Everyone loved him. Brought me flowers. Never forgot my birthday or anniversaries. But the rest was there, too. I know I'm just a stranger on the internet. I know it's impossible to really understand a situation or person fully from what we read here. But based on what I'm seeing, I'd say pack up your baby and leave. File for child support. You don't need this.

You deserve better.

Last edited by WhatHappened; 09-25-2012 at 02:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-25-2012, 03:55 PM
Invi Invi is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 30
Default

Maybe his ego has taken a hit. I doubt it, though. I think he's really just frustrated as far as that part goes, or perhaps he feels like he needs those outings to get away from me and how I've been recently. That'd be ironic, given what put me in that mood.

-----------


GG, you do a lot of editing. lol. I often check posts on my phone prior to having time to reply, and it seems like every time I come back, your posts have grown.

I'm going to just try to answer these in order, whenever I feel like something needs a response, because the newbie is sitting next to me requiring attention every couple of minutes and I don't have the patience to cut this into quotes. I apologize if it seems ramble-y.

Poor communication is usually a problem on my end. This is new to me, him being unresponsive.
Not making concrete plans is not. He has never promised me that he would be somewhere or do something. Not once, because he does not like to make promises he can not be sure he will keep. He wouldn't promise to be somewhere by a certain time, for instance, in case he got a flat tire. So this is not new to me. However, I do think things like when he schedules dates are well within his control and should not fall under that.

He has only skipped aftercare in the form of a night between once. However, he knew what he was doing, evidenced by him coming home and telling me I was going to be upset with him, and proceeding to tell me he was going out the next night.
Today is actually supposed to be our date night. We'll see how it goes.

He is using protection for intercourse. He is not concerned about oral and seems to think I shouldn't be, either.
He does help with the baby.

We're not particularly spiritual people, so I wouldn't know what to say about that.

On the isolation, there are only so many places we can go with an infant, or at least that I am comfortable going to with him. Not really an abundance of smoke-free, baby-friendly, cheap places in Vegas.

Not being able to deal with my negativity was in response to me asking if I should leave. It was part of him saying that it was pretty much up to me and whether or not I thought I could make improvements.
I'll mention here that for about 2 weeks, minus 2-3 days around my birthday, I was pretty down. I didn't feel motivated to do anything, so I didn't. I could hardly communicate, I didn't want to be around anyone, I had complete apathy a good portion of the time as to whether or not the baby was upset and pretty much only tended to him because I knew the feelings were temporary and I love him and know that leaving him to cry is not good for him and not what I want to do. But, at the time, I had no desire to do so. In this time period is when I sent him the suggestion to consider closing, and he said he'd think about it.

About a week ago is when I started feeling better. Now it's been about 4 or 5 days since he started acting all down. (My schedule currently is a bit screwy, so my time-keeping abilities are a little out of whack. I couldn't tell you what conversations we've had on what days for the last week right now.)

I forgot where I was going with that.

anyway.

Most of the time I actually do feel appreciated. He thanks me for everyday, mundane things. Cooking dinner, minding the baby, rubbing his back, etc.

I'll look over that link.

I'll probably call her tomorrow morning since he and I are supposed to spend the day together today. I'll just let her know how I'm feeling and see what my options are and figure out what I want to do from there.

----------------------

WH, as far as I know, all he is usually spending on these dates is gas money. There are a lot of free things to do in Vegas, like advanced movie screenings you can get passes for online.
Unfortunately, most of these things are not baby-friendly. Sitter is not an option, personal preference.

We were talking about going to a drive-in movie the other day, as we would be in the car and if the baby started crying it's simply a matter of rolling up the windows and tending to him. Maybe we'll be able to do that soon.


I find myself not even wanting to think about this today. I just want to push it all aside and see how today goes, then tomorrow, reevaluate, and let him know that it will not work this way.

I appreciate all your responses, though I wonder if I may be making it look worse than it is.
Then I wonder if I just can't see it being as bad because I'm in it.
ugh. much ugh.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-25-2012, 05:17 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,595
Default

Yes, I do type a lot but I don't actually expect you to answer back each little point! It's more for YOU to think about in case it helps you in your processing. Internet people just give feedback / other perspectives. You can choose to ignore it or use it however you want. Your life is your life to run.

Quote:
I find myself not even wanting to think about this today. I just want to push it all aside and see how today goes, then tomorrow, reevaluate, and let him know that it will not work this way.

I appreciate all your responses, though I wonder if I may be making it look worse than it is. Then I wonder if I just can't see it being as bad because I'm in it. ugh. much ugh.
Sigh. I think you see it pretty clear there. It's not fun to digest or come to terms with now that you are shining a light on it.

I'm sorry for all the ugh. I am worried though. Sounds weird over there.

Get yourself through this. Do what you have to do -- and put you and the baby's needs FIRST. Do talk to your mother. Be safe.

You don't seem like you need it really, but in case -- more red flags that pop out to me below.

Again -- you are a real live person that has dignity, worth, and value even if you are being poorly treated right now. Remember that!

hugs
GG


--------------------

Quote:
He wouldn't promise to be somewhere by a certain time, for instance, in case he got a flat tire. So this is not new to me. However, I do think things like when he schedules dates are well within his control and should not fall under that.
Flat tires are an exception, not the rule. One CAN choose to commit to schedules and be punctual MOST of the time like all other people do.

Basically he never wants to be pinned down or held accountable.

You are correct in that his date schedule is something he can tell you. The other lady has to know the date. Why can't you?

Quote:
he knew what he was doing, evidenced by him coming home and telling me I was going to be upset with him, and proceeding to tell me he was going out the next night.
More lack of consideration and putting his wants/needs first.

Quote:
He is using protection for intercourse. He is not concerned about oral and seems to think I shouldn't be, either.
Unprotected oral sex can still cootify you.

What is "intercourse?" Penis in vagina? He slaps a condom on to not make more babies? What about penis in anus? Other kinds of intercourse/outercourse? (I do not expect you to answer me. It is for YOU think on.)

He is willing to take risks with his body. That is his business. His body is his to own and maintain and offer to share as he wishes.

Your body is yours to own and maintain and offer to share as YOU wish. To tell you that you just shouldn't be concerned about your own body management or have personal limits/preferences about what you choose to expose your own body to is fresh and uber disrespectful!

He is not entitled to using your body however he wants. You share your body as YOU decide.

Quote:
We're not particularly spiritual people, so I wouldn't know what to say about that.
You do not have to belong to an organized religion to know if you are happy all the way down to the Soul or not. To know what feeds your Soul to make it sing out with joy and feel really, really ALIVE! Joie de vivre!

Quote:
Not really an abundance of smoke-free, baby-friendly, cheap places in Vegas.
I am sure you have a public library, a bookstore, a mall to walk in, McDonald's, a grocery. So you do not have to be out in the desert heat but get a change of scene. Sling the kid and get YOU aired out. Newborn baby won't give a patootie where baby is so long as mama is there too. It's not about where you go with baby to air out. It's about Daddy not being concerned about mama's well being enough to air her out anywhere. At all.

Quote:
for about 2 weeks I was pretty down. I didn't feel motivated to do anything, I could hardly communicate, I didn't want to be around anyone, I had complete apathy a good portion of the time, struggled to care for baby. In this time period is when I sent him the suggestion to consider closing, and he said he'd think about it.
This is severe neglect. You experience a VERY difficult period, perhaps PPD related, ask him to pause dating for a bit to focus on home life responsibilities and give you needed nurture and support and does he do it? Nope.

Quote:
Not being able to deal with my negativity was in response to me asking if I should leave. It was part of him saying that it was pretty much up to me and whether or not I thought I could make improvements.
I still don't hear where he will make changes to his behavior toward you. It's all on you. To just cope. And basically that means "Just take it or leave it. I ain't changing my ways."

Cuz he's totally fine how it is. Other than you shutting up so he doesn't have to deal with your "negativity" any more when you voice your stuff.

Quote:
Most of the time I actually do feel appreciated. He thanks me for everyday, mundane things. Cooking dinner, minding the baby, rubbing his back, etc.
That's nice. Thanks for giving to me. I can do minimal verbal thanks for that so I can keep on getting these services I like from you. Talk is cheap.

In my walk? In my actions and behavior? How I give back to you in creed and deed? To show you I appreciate, love you, and take you into consideration as my partner? I am DOING this by _______?

You have a skewed relationship dynamic there.

If the choice he's giving is take it or leave it? And you are thinking about leaving it? Leave. You are not being fed here in this relationship. You are being drained. You deserve much more and much better treatment.

But be careful in leaving if when you highlighter that speak out loud list you see mega red flags waving. Only you are there and can tell what level this is at in your real life. If you ARE being abused (emotionally or mentally counts, you don't have to be punched for it to be abusive) the leaving time is the dangerous time. Abusers can retaliate. DO leave, but leave safely.

Last edited by GalaGirl; 09-25-2012 at 05:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-25-2012, 06:24 PM
AnnabelMore's Avatar
AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,230
Default

This seems very simple to me. First off, a conversation and a process when moving from closed to open is not too much to ask, but, well, that's water under the bridge. Let's look instead at where you are now.

A single night between dates is not too much to ask. A single day's notice before a date is not too much to ask.

You know what *is* too much to ask? Reserving the right to complete spontaneity despite having an infant and a partner at home. You can't build a family with no obligation to be there for them reliably. Poly =/= whatever you want whenever you want it.

Either he doesn't know how healthy, reciprocal relationships work or he doesn't care. If I were you I'd offer him one last opportunity to change his ways and then I'd go.
__________________
The major players. Me, 30ish bi female. Gia, girlfriend of 4+ years. Clay, boyfriend/dom. Davis, ex/friend/"it's complicated." Eddie, roommate & fwb.
The supporting cast. Eric, Gia's husband. Bee, Gia and Eric's toddler. Dexter, Gia's lover. Helen, Eric's lover. Izzy and Nikki, Clay's partners. Liam, Eddie's husband.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-27-2012, 01:01 PM
Invi Invi is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 30
Default

So I called my mother yesterday morning to see what my options are. Financially, this could be pretty difficult. By land or air, the trip would be worst for the baby. Twenty four in a car? Five hours on my lap in a plane? Not even really considering the latter. Our car seat is not approved for flight as far as I know, and holding an infant during any turbulence doesn't strike me as particularly safe.
I also spent like an hour talking to my dad. We don't usually talk much at all, so that's something.

I haven't said anything to my SO yet. I want to be sure I'm ready to actually follow through with it before I say anything.

I feel kind of rotten because to me this very much feels like an ultimatum. I don't want this. I never did. I don't want to renegotiate. I just want out of it, but I know I'd very likely stay if he decided to be mono in our relationship. I guess it's not an ultimatum, though? I have no intention of saying, stop this or I leave. Just, I am seriously considering leaving, and finding out what my options are, and I would like to discuss this and matters dealing with our son calmly, as adults.
It feels like the same thing though. Ugh.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-27-2012, 01:12 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,595
Default

It is not an ultimatum -- you are not saying he cannot live his life the way he wants it. He can go on all he wants.

It is not an ultimatum to think about leaving a situation that YOU do not want to be in. Because you can live your life the way YOU want. Because you deserve to be treated nicely. You have dignity, worth, and value.

You have the RIGHT to live your life in a way that feeds you. You choose who you want to be with.

You want a monogamous romantic relationship. He will not provide that. (There's also a whole bunch more weird there.) Therefore you cannot be in a romantic relationship with him. That is about it.

My sister has flown with her baby a lot more than I did with my kid -- but she went with her spouse so they could take turns holding him. It might be worth getting two seats so you can put baby in a proper baby carrier so your arms get a break. It is free to call airline and get info, so why not check it out? Just to really look at the option before dismissing it.

Since you are not given access to finances?

Could also call Nevada DCF (You are las vegas right?) to see if there is "leaving aid" available in your situation. You have a place to go, right? Your parents. So some help getting there would be great if you are struggling with cost.

Could also maybe call up some churches? Sometimes the minister has "minister discretionary funds" to be spent however the minister deems fit. Once you land with the parents and are better settled in your new life you can make your thanks and repay/donate funds to help some other person in that community out of a bind. I know my UU church gives the minister funds for the "minister discretionary fund."

Just some ideas -- again, free to call to ask for information. You aren't hurting anyone by seeking info. Maybe other readers have more ideas.

It's good you talked to your parents. Hang in there!

GL!
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 09-27-2012 at 01:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-27-2012, 01:24 PM
Invi Invi is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 30
Default

I looked at the site of the airline I use, Southwest (yay cheap?), and they only allow FAA approved restraint devices, which we do not have one of and I am not sure how much one would cost.

What we'd be looking at is my mom driving out here in her car with her husband to get my things and me flying back while they drive, or all of is fitting into a car, hopefully borrowed from family because her car is not going to fit three of us and a car seat and my stuff. I would just ship most things, but I have a hand made cradle my grandfather made for us so I'm wary of that. Everything else can be compacted.

And I just have a bad feeling about flying with the baby. I don't know why, but it's making me uncomfortable.

I feel like telling him is going to be the hardest part. It doesn't matter how many times he has told me I can leave if I feel that would be best, whenever it is mentioned after he gets very upset. Not like angry upset or anything, just sad, and probably a little disappointed.
Sometimes I think he does not understand that I do love him, I just do not love this. Seems like he thinks they are one and the same.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
dating issues, mono / poly

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:02 PM.