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  #41  
Old 10-09-2012, 09:05 PM
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Default 10/3 sneakiness, lying, total relationship fail

Quote:
Wow.. Just wow.

We had drama all weekend, with Maca deciding he wasn't going to deal with her anymore unless/until she made plans to deal with the issues with all three of us and go over the boundaries-then contacting her (behind my back) back and forth and back and forth.

Sunday we went over the secrecy and lying and how unacceptable that is. Better to tell me he changed his mind (even if it is every hour) than to lie and sneak around behind my back.

Monday after work, we were sitting on the couch together. He got a phone call-he didn't recognize the number, so he read it off to me. I didn't recognize it as one I knew offhand (and said so) but I did recognize it as a local land-line number. I was online, so I typed it into the search engine. But, my internet was slow. He answered before it found the business-a local florist.

I heard the conversation. Part way through he took the call outside allegedly to get an address for the caller.

When he came in again, I asked him what that was all about. He made up a story about it being his co-worker, a very detailed and complicated line of BULLSHIT.
I replied with, "so he was calling from the business he was at?"
He said no, he was calling from his cell.
I pointed out that no, that was a local landline-not a cell.

Meanwhile, as he elaborated on his lie-in great depth, I typed out a fairly quick email, to him, stating that I know darnwell his co-worker doesn't work at the local florist and asking-why are you lying to me.

I was so upset, I couldn't talk. He noticed my hands were shaking and I stood up, nearly dropping my cell. I was so astounded at the audacity of the lie and the deliberateness of it and the great depth he went to, to convince me of it. I was speechless.
He asked me if I was ok. I said, "No. No I'm not. I can't talk. I emailed you."
Then I went to the bathroom and sitting on the toilet burst into shocked tears.

After I calmed down some, I went to our room and lay in the bed trying to reason through WTF had just happened, before I confronted him.
But, I knew he'd been up for over 24 hours at that point and was exhausted-not the best time for such a serious conversation.

I decided to go pick up homework from a friend and let myself cool off-waiting til morning to confront the topic.

I came upstairs and let him know. He had read the email and was devastated. He wrote me back an "omg how could you ever forgive me" email while I was gone.

But-at 3am, he woke up (medicated unbeknownst to me) and flew off the handle. We had a HELL of a fight. He basically blamed it all on me. Told me I always have to have everything my way, that I force him to live life my way and I don't care about what anyone wants but myself (things she has suggested based on BULLSHIT he's told her). He threw it in my face that I have GG and he is "alone" (even though I NEVER EVER make plans with GG if Maca is available) and accused me of not allowing him to have someone else (again-NOT TRUE).

Anyway-I was devastated.
About 6am he apologized and said he didn't know what he was thinking blah blah blah and wanting me to tell him what to do to fix it.

That continued to flip flop through Tuesday with him alternately wanting to cuddle and make love ( I refused) and then being pissed off that I was "being a bitch" and blaming me for everything and then being apologetic for everything again and wanting me to tell him what to do to fix things, what I wanted etc only to fly off the handle when I told him no-this was his mess and it was his job to figure out what HE wanted and what HE needed to do with it.

By Tuesday night I was such a mess, I had to walk away and ended up sleeping on the couch.

This morning at 6am he woke me on the couch being sweet, told me he would be back to pack his things after work.
I didn't reply immediately and he asked me what I was thinking. I said, "you need to do what you need to do."
He got pissed and sat down and said, "well you won't TELL ME what you want me to do."
Then he stormed out of the house in a fury.

I texted him that no, I can't TELL HIM what I want him to do-because that results in him later saying I MADE him do what I wanted-and he needs to decide what he NEEDS TO DO.
He was pissy and went off about how he doesn't know what to do and I'm making it more difficult.

At 6:45 I called him and asked him how he expects me to answer "what do I do" without telling him what to do. He was all mellow and apologetic and told me there wans't any way (or reason) I could answer that. That he needs to figure it out for himself, that he was being unreasonable and that he can't even remember what HAPPENED the night before because he took 5 prescription pain pills (normal dose is 1/2 a pill) "hoping I wouldn't ever wake up".

WTF?!?!?!?!??!

This afternoon his boss and friend sent him home sick from work (sick as a dog coughing and hacking). He's been passed out on the couch sick for the last 5 hours.

I'm devastated.
I'm pissed.
I'm astounded.

I don't even know what to SAY.
I could try to get him put in the hospital-but they won't admit him unless he's willing-(have some experience as my parents work in that field up here).
He won't go willing-so that is a waste of energy on my part.

WTF.

(that's mostly rhetorical)

When he came home-he asked me if he could have a few days to get well before dealing with anything. So... I'm sitting here.
I can't argue that trying to deal with stuff when he's so ill is unreasonable.
At the same time-HOLY FUCK!
Avoidy, flip/flop behavior in desperation, inappropriate "coping" behaviors/suicide attempt? (he denies it now), her continued dis-interest in DOING anything to resolve this issue which is growing exponentially.
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  #42  
Old 10-09-2012, 09:08 PM
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Default 10/8-his focus remains on her and I needing to get along

Quote:
Maca and I talked some last night.
Things remain unresolved with the other girl.
She is struggling to accept that the reason for the boundaries we have aren't "just to protect LR" but in fact those boundaries were created to protect Maca and that as the CURRENT boundaries stand-they are what WE BOTH want for our dynamic.

He reiterated his need for her to sit down with both of us and go over things. She wanted to know what I wanted to talk to her about (as if it remains just ME).
He told her we need to discuss the boundaries, time constraints, expectations.
Her response was that it is all "too complicated".
I am disgusted with her response and attitude and I am disgusted and resentful over his continuing to prioritize finding a solution with her-whilst he's destroying everything between us.

Quote:
"too complicated"

While I understand that there are people who like the freedom of being able to come and go as they please-and I respect that FOR THEM-

I find it INCREASINGLY irritating that people can't fathom that this is UNREALISTIC in my life.

I pointed out to Maca last night-in response to this comment from the other girl-

Even as a single man after his divorce:

He had a time limit, becuase he had a 2 year old at home and was a single dad. He DID NOT HAVE TO TELL the people he dated that was WHY his time was limited-
but it didn't change the fact THAT his time was limited.

He didn't have to tell that his $$ was limited-but it remained limited.

There WERE boundaries in his life-even as a single man-and while people he dated didn't necessarily have to be told WHY any given boundary existed-they did run into those boundaries.

So it's NOT "more complicated" that we have boundaries now.
We had them when we were single.
We have them now as married's.

We will ALWAYS have them-even if we divorce.

What may change is the specifics of those boundaries and/or the reasons for them.

The truth is that asking to be able to STATE what our limits are for what we can offer someone is actually a KINDNESS and a sign of respect for THEM.

The other option, is what he and she have done for the last year; which is to NOT state those limits clearly, so that she continuously finds herself hurt and upset AND hurting and upsetting him and/or I and/or GG and/or the kids
BECAUSE SHE HAS NO CLUE WHERE THE BOUNDARIES ARE and so she inadvertently steps on them.
Ouch. How disrespectful to ask someone to play a game with you and then not tell them the rules until after they break them! Talk about setting them up for failure.

Her ideology that it is "too complicated" could be restated as
"I prefer to find out the hard way what the rules of the game are."
or
"I enjoy the pain and misery I suffer and I cause by continuously breaking rules I have no intention of learning about."

I find this... disturbing.
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  #43  
Old 10-09-2012, 09:09 PM
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So, has he moved out again or are you still dealing with this bullshit under your own roof? You said a little while ago that he was coming back from work to pack up his belongings. Is that a thing, or was it just talk?

The fact is, reading your installments usually gives me a headache, but i find it irresistible like a soap-opera where it leaves the viewer hanging on a Friday and has to see one more episode just to see what happens next, only to get sucked in to the next story-line. If I did not know better, I'd think you were writing a novel instead of a biography. It is very much like a novel, except one where the reader gets to interact with the author as the story is being written.

I do wonder how much longer you intend to put up with this. Indefinitely?

That is all, for now.
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  #44  
Old 10-09-2012, 09:13 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Default 10/8 non-negotiable,

Quote:
The ultimatum has been dropped by me-as of last night when the discussion happened.
I laid it out as

this is non-negotiable.

I compared it to BDSM.
There is no room for play until negotiations of soft and hard limits has been established AND AGREED TO.

These boundaries are the soft/hard limits of our polydynamic. No agreement to them-no play. PERIOD.

He is devastated.
But-he understands BDSM negotiation well and agreed that it did make sense.

He also clearly grasped that the "it's too complicated" crap was CRAP after I gave the examples regarding the fact that EVERYONE has boundaries and limits-even singles and monos.
MOST don't state them and thus end up ruining relationships with unnecessary toe stomping-but the boundaries and limits exist none-the-less.

Everyone has time constraints, everyone has financial limitations, everyone has safer sex limitations (even if their limit is a free for all-that is their limit), etc.

Asking that someone be AWARE of ours before playing on our game board isn't "too complicated" it's actually respectful and considerate of THEM. I elaborated here:

http://aafteota.wordpress.com/2012/1...-by-the-rules/
Ironically-where things stand, I am still stuck.
I have no way of knowing if they are in contact, unless he tells me (or I go searching which I don't have time, energy or interest in doing).
But-trusting him is out too-because he's proven himself untrustworthy and nothing significant has happened to prove otherwise in the week since.

In point of fact-they were continuing to talk yesterday and there has been no forward progress.

I am now at the point of believing that in order for OUR relationship and OUR family to heal from the insanity of HIS out of control wishy-washy behavior, triggered by his desperation to cling to her-
she needs to be OUT OF THE PICTURE ALL TOGETHER.

He needs to look at himself and see that the emotional toll "chasing her" is taking on him is damaging him AND HIS WHOLE LIFE-including work, physical health, emotional health, mental stability and his family.
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  #45  
Old 10-09-2012, 09:15 PM
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Default 10/8-what needed to be addressed with her specifically

Quote:
With her in particular
because of the history (they broke boundaries and she got all bent out of shape over my not being enough of a "hostess" while she was here);
She claims to want to spend time with the whole family

I said that I needed her to understand that
A) as "just friends" (which is what they supposedly are) kissing and sex are off limits.
[they were making out in our kitchen in front of our guests and children]

B)I am not a hostess. I'm not going to be but it's not a personal slight against HER-I don't do those things for ANYONE.

C)if she wants to participate in our family she can't continue talking smack about me [that is addressed in this thread:http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28151]

Really-that's it.

HE may have other things HE wants to address with her. All I wanted was for her to understand that talking smack about me isn't going to be acceptable if she wants our families to socialize together, I'm not going to cater to her personally while she's in my home, her definition of friends [which she stated to me specifically] is fine for OTHER friends of hers, but kissing and making out isn't something we do with friends.

She has no idea how simple it could be. Because she's afraid to even chance having a conversation with me.
I really don't see any of it being functionally possible at this point. Nor do I see either of them making the effort to do the self-inventory and take personal responsibility for the damage they are individually causing themselves and the rest of us to make it feasible to go anywhere with being friends. Thus-I think it would be pointless to go over any of this with her NOW.
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  #46  
Old 10-09-2012, 09:17 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Default the letter I had sent her the last week of September.

Quote:
After 7 months of "avoidy"-in response to his increased frustration over wanting to have her participate in family functions, which he claims was based upon her continued requests to; I wrote the following email. I had to send it to him-because I don't have contact info for her. He forwarded it to her after reading it. At that point he felt it was fine. AFTER she read it, she flipped out and then he decided I was being unreasonable.



"I'm going to try to cut to the chase and keep this short and succinct.
That's not my forte-so if there is anything that you need me to
elaborate on-feel free to ask.

I asked you to stop contacting me for one very specific reason. I
found it offensive and overstepping your bounds to suggest to me that
the "real" Maca is the person you understood Maca to be versus who I
understand him to be.

I don't hate you. Nor do I believe you are a bad person, a trouble
maker, etc.I do think it would be a good idea going forward, for you
to understand that the two of you have stepped on my toes. Earning
trust takes time and effort. Earning trust after having caused someone
harm requires more time and effort. I am not a vindictive or possessive
person. However, I do have very high standards and expectations
regarding who I open up and offer my own friendship to.

I am hurt by derogatory things you said about me. I understand that
you based your statements on what you knew from the things Maca said.
That means a large part of the responsibility lays on his shoulders,
for considering what he says, what he does not say and how the
combination affects people's perceptions of who he's talking about.
However, they were still untrue assessments of who I am as a person
and it hurts me to have such things said of me.

I believe that many of the issues which arose between Maca and I at
the time you two started meeting in person have been dealt with in a
manner that should alleviate further conflict. I think he and I are
fairly clear between one another about what our expectations are with
each other regarding other friends and lovers.

I don't have any idea if you are clear on what my expectations are
regarding how I expect to be treated by Maca friends/lovers. There
seems to be two schools of thought on the topic. One is that it is his
responsibility to ensure that you are. The other is that I need to
clearly communicate my expectations to you.
I tend to be of the second school of thought. Maca tends towards the
first. As this is his attempt at building an outside friendship with
potential for more, I am willing to go with his tendencies unless
asked by you or him to clarify."
As noted-she took the letter as offensive and they had a falling out of drama over it-which resulted in him coming back to me and laying the blame on me-again.
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  #47  
Old 10-09-2012, 09:19 PM
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Default how my metamour/friends expectations relate to her

Quote:
Regarding the paragraph regarding her not knowing how I expect to be treated by metamours/friends etc:

respect our boundaries
communicate directly to me on issues regarding me
treat my children with kindness and respect
never talk bad about myself, Chris or Mark in front of our children
respect my personal space
treat me kindly
not talk negatively about me behind my back
consider the consequences of their actions upon me
consider the consequences of their actions on Mark & Iís relationship
consider the consequences of their words upon me
consider the consequences of their words upon Mark & Iís relationship
consider the consequences of their actions on Chris
consider the consequences of their actions on our children
consider the consequences of their words on Chris
consider the consequences of their words on our children
NOT discipline my children
NOT undermine my, Chrisís or Markís authority with our children
NOT attempt to get in the middle of any of my other relationships
NOT attempt to undermine any of my other relationships
NOT treat me or my relationships with disdain
Be understanding of the time restraints we have for socializing

It seems obvious to me-I wouldn't normally write it out in a list like that. But-I did, in order to clarify for myself what it was that was pissing me off with the way she treated me.

To clarify-I end relationships with people who mistreat my SO's. I have terminated contact with my father and stepmother and with several close friends.
This has been a very non-negotiable agreement for Maca, GG and I for the duration of our relationships.
We have no contact with Maca's mother and GG's parents either. Because they tried to play favorite's games with our children.

So, to me-this isn't something that needs to be clearly spelled out in this format-in choosing who I socialize with, I choose people who meet the expectations. If they fail to-they get a one time warning.

In this case, she has already stomped on my toes in this arena, so this WOULD BE her warning.
But, she doesn't want the warning.
Which is fine-
in my book-if you don't want it -GO AWAY.

But, you aren't going to be coming closer to me otherwise.

**I never told Maca he couldn't retain a relationship with her. I simply refuse to have anything to do with her or to allow our children to have anything to do with her as long as she refuses to address these issues**
(that has since changed. I have now told him she is a NO GO and NO CONTACT until such time as she contacts me to sit down and talk. But-I have no way of knowing if he sticks to that.)
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  #48  
Old 10-09-2012, 10:23 PM
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We need to look at our precious 24 hours and decide what makes us feel good, productive and empowered. Toss out the guilt, obligation and need to please-itis. Keep standing strong, you are worth it!
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  #49  
Old 10-09-2012, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoringGuy View Post
So, has he moved out again or are you still dealing with this bullshit under your own roof? You said a little while ago that he was coming back from work to pack up his belongings. Is that a thing, or was it just talk?

The fact is, reading your installments usually gives me a headache, but i find it irresistible like a soap-opera where it leaves the viewer hanging on a Friday and has to see one more episode just to see what happens next, only to get sucked in to the next story-line. If I did not know better, I'd think you were writing a novel instead of a biography. It is very much like a novel, except one where the reader gets to interact with the author as the story is being written.

I do wonder how much longer you intend to put up with this. Indefinitely?

That is all, for now.
Boring-can I quote that in my personal blog (about the soap opera novel)?
He is still living there. He came back with the 'I promised I wouldn't walk out again'.
I don't know how people can keep reading it. I find it exhausting. I have considered leaving. There's a lot I could say on that, but not yet. I'm in school after 15 years as a sahm. We'll see.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Boring-can I quote that in my personal blog (about the soap opera novel)?
He is still living there. He came back with the 'I promised I wouldn't walk out again'.
I don't know how people can keep reading it. I find it exhausting. I have considered leaving. There's a lot I could say on that, but not yet. I'm in school after 15 years as a sahm. We'll see.
You can quote whatever you want; once something is posted on this forum, it becomes everyone's. I must admit, what I said about soap operas is not very original; I think I heard it somewhere else. But by all means go ahead and please do.

I know you don't want to break up with your husband because you love him and you have kids together, but to me it seems as though he is more like one of the kids than a co-parent TO them. And that is taking away your parenting energy FROM the kids.

I know you're trying to do the right thing, and it is easier said than done. I don't understand how people can go through life purposely making themselves sick and miserable when the recipe for making things better is spelled out before them and all they need to do is walk the path. Of course I don't know your husband, and he hasn't kept his side of the story current, but you don't come on here acting like you don't accept your part of the responsibility for where you're at. It's extremely difficult to wrap my mind around it, but it does appear like you're doing everything in your power to make it better and he is just not on-board with that.

Let's start a drinking game: whenever I say the word "but", everyone has to take a drink.
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