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  #81  
Old 03-24-2011, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
But Christians still have the benefit of bacon, so it's not all bad!
In half seriousness, I don't think there can be peace in the middle-east until all parties (us too) can sit down to an old-fashioned southern BBQ.

In full seriousness, MrFarFromRight - I would suggest that you read through Divine Sex. I'm on chapter 6 now, and by this point most of my sticking points with polyamory and the Bible have been either completely dissolved or turned on their ear. Best recommended book on both the faith and poly fronts for me personally (thanks for the hard sell LR!). Ultimately, no one is going to heal your faith but you and God together. Of course, you've rejected a lot of secondhand corruption and become skeptical, which isn't a bad thing - so long as you keep digging! We'll never know Christ's precise feelings on any particular topic, and we all tend to project our values onto Him when we try to reconcile things He didn't talk about.

Speaking of which, what may help your sticking points is to get a red-letter edition Bible, where the words of Christ Himself are highlighted. Also what may interest you are the books by the Jesus Seminar (IRRC). They are a group of theologians, professors, historians, linguists, scientists (real scientists), and others that debate original source texts (both Canon and non-Canonical if I recall). They go line by line and using the best original texts available they hash out everything Jesus said and attribute an accuracy to it. For example, if certain expressions came about in the second and third centuries, it is highly unlikely that Jesus said them, or at least *in that way*. I found them to be quite illustrative of just what He said in the vernacular of the day, and what was remembered 4-5-6 generations later. It really helps resolve the context conflicts that you, Magdlyn, LR, and others have pointed out.

Of course Christianity is about an individual's walk with Christ, not with His church (small-c). Without studying we are left with the interpretations of others. The only person that can tell you what Christ means to you is you. I think it is vague in some parts on purpose. Be it man-made or inspired, it is all we have to work with.
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  #82  
Old 03-25-2011, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by brainfreezy View Post
In full seriousness, MrFarFromRight - I would suggest that you read through Divine Sex. I'm on chapter 6 now, and by this point most of my sticking points with polyamory and the Bible have been either completely dissolved or turned on their ear. Best recommended book on both the faith and poly fronts for me personally (thanks for the hard sell LR!).
You're very welcome and I concur!
Read the book MrFar and then we can talk about it! I really enjoyed the "change of pace" it takes from typical church doctrine ESPECIALLY since it's written by a pastor of like what? 36 years or some such? (book isn't right in front of me sorry!).




I'm all for bbq! Where we meeting?
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  #83  
Old 03-25-2011, 04:30 AM
Fidelia Fidelia is offline
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Loving Radiance, BrainFreezy, et al:

I am thoroughly delighted that you have read/are reading Divine Sex and finding it useful. It really opened my eyes to the discrepancies between what the Bible actually says and what Christian religious tradition teaches, among other things. I was so disappointed last year when I tried to start a discussion thread on the book and it de-railed so quickly and so profoundly. Perhaps at some point we might try again.
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  #84  
Old 03-25-2011, 11:59 AM
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LR-
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I'm all for bbq! Where we meeting?
Whenever you (or anyone else for that matter ) find yourself in the Denver area.

Fidelia-
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I was so disappointed last year when I tried to start a discussion thread on the book and it de-railed so quickly and so profoundly. Perhaps at some point we might try again.
Now's as good as any! Personally, I'm finding it a complete yet exhaustive text. He really doesn't leave *any* examples from scripture out, so about halfway through most chapters I'm thinking "okay okay, so poly isn't adultery..." and such. However, since I'm open to all this, maybe I'm easy-convincing. Better to cover a topic completely than to leave out valuable points that would reach a harder sell than me. He also covers what other scholars have said about certain posts so he does a very thorough job. The length and verbosity should not dissuade anyone, (like my posts ).

If your thread seriously got ground to a halt, start a new one. If it just up-and-died, revive it!
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  #85  
Old 03-26-2011, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by brainfreezy View Post
...The only person that can tell you what Christ means to you is you. I think it is vague in some parts on purpose. Be it man-made or inspired, it is all we have to work with.
Well, we have the Roman Catholic and Protestant church fathers telling us which books are canonical and which aren't. I 2nd the Jesus Seminar research, but it's also worthwhile reading the intertestamental "apocrypha," and the gnostic texts of the early centuries AD, instead of just going with which books the Romans thought were most useful politically.

I prefer much of authentic Paul to the Revelation of John (which is insane, imo, though poetic and scary, if you like that sort of thing...).
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  #86  
Old 03-26-2011, 02:13 PM
Quath Quath is offline
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I think if you are trying to do a well rounded review of the Bible, then check out some college lectures on the New Testament. One I listened to tried to unravel what happened by reconciling internal and historical contradictions by using a few assumptions like older stories were more likely yo be true than newer ones. Or something is more likely to be true if it doesn't benefit the author to say it.

By doing this, the story condenses down to a story in which Jesus is a follower of John. He preaches the coming of God in a few years. He seems to hope he will be the Son of Man who is God's divine judge over who is allowed into the kingdom of Earth. He goes to Jerusalem. One possibility is that Judas let it slip that Jesus thought he was the Son of Man. The rabbi knew what it meant and to the Roman government, it seemed that Jesus was planning on an insurgency or rebellion.

Jesus was tortured and buried in a mass grave. Hiw followers heard a rumor he was buried in a tomb. They went to the tomb and did not find him and assumed that Jesus rose from the dead.

Another good book is Misquoting Jesus which looks into how the New Testament has been changed a lot over time and what has been manipulated. For example, the story of Jesua and the adulterous woman appears to have been added and was not part of the original gospel. Another change is that women were made less prominent over time.
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  #87  
Old 03-31-2011, 01:04 AM
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No. Your answer is about your anger and objections. My question asked what Jesus teaches polyamorists, and what we still don't understand.
That's a tall order! There is so much that he taught that is worthy. I believe - and it's a very personal interpretation - that Jesus taught (among other things) self-respect, the necessity for taking responsibility for yourself and your life. (Matthew 16:24: Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me." Though I doubt that he said "deny". As I've written before, I think he was often misquoted. And - for clarification - I imagine the word or the concept "own" inserted between "their" and "cross", i.e. every person has the duty to carry their own cross - or load, or life, or whatever you like. This means that I don't believe that he "died for our sins"... or ever claimed to.) As far as polyamory goes, didn't he teach that we should love everybody? I don't believe that he meant we should sexually love everybody, but it certainly was a leap away from the usual concept of stingy, jealous love, love with strings attached, limited love...

"and what we still don't understand" With respect, I think that you've pulled that out of context. I wrote that Jesus accused his disciples - who were with him daily - of still not understanding what he was trying to teach after all that time he'd spent with them. (I wrote that to illustrate that if Jesus got upset at their misinterpretations of his teaching, why should we accept the disciples' version?) However, to [partly] answer your question: Of course we today don't perfectly understand him. How could we? But each person is different and there must be thousands of individual misunderstandings. That said, there are some mass beliefs anchored in the Church or in each branch of it - different dogmas for different denominations (e.g. papal infallibility for the Catholics, predestination for the Calvinists...) - that are widely believed but have [I think] nothing to do with Jesus or his teachings.

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Originally Posted by jasminegld View Post
So now I have a different question for MrFarFromRight. Do these issues of Jesus and Christianity still matter to you today?
Passionately! Partly because it's the culture that I grew up in. The issue of Christianity has played a fundemental role in who I am. But mostly because
a) I believe that Jesus was a great and loving teacher;
b) Christianity is a mighty force (in determining the opinions and attitudes of the dominating nations today - even those who don't profess themselves Christians: it's part of the bedrock of our society);
c) The Church has (sometimes willfully) mangled and perverted those beautiful teachings, so that they can be used for hate and bigotry... and war. (Those widely published photos of Son OF A Bush and his cabinet bowing their heads in prayer before deciding which Iraqi villages to bomb turned my stomach!)
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  #88  
Old 03-31-2011, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by brainfreezy View Post
In full seriousness, MrFarFromRight - I would suggest that you read through Divine Sex. I'm on chapter 6 now, and by this point most of my sticking points with polyamory and the Bible have been either completely dissolved or turned on their ear. Best recommended book on both the faith and poly fronts for me personally (thanks for the hard sell LR!).
There is so much I'd like to read, and honestly, I don't need to work on reconciling my sexual principles with my spiritual beliefs: they're already in harmony.
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Originally Posted by brainfreezy View Post
Ultimately, no one is going to heal your faith but you and God together. Of course, you've rejected a lot of secondhand corruption and become skeptical, which isn't a bad thing - so long as you keep digging! We'll never know Christ's precise feelings on any particular topic, and we all tend to project our values onto Him when we try to reconcile things He didn't talk about.
Similarly, I don't feel the need to "heal my faith". I reject the patriarchalism, the sexism, and the idea of a "jealous God" (and - as I've written earlier - the pettiness of a God who has a "Chosen People", favoured above all others) of the Judeo-Christian tradition. I have full respect for [my concept of] Jesus... just as I have full respect for [my concept of] Goldman, Gandhi, King, Mandela, and Corrie. I'm sure that they all had their faults, but they tried to be good... and [I believe] achieved that in very difficult circumstances. Personally, I doubt that Jesus set himself up to be the unique son of God (and if I became convinced that he did believe that of himself, I would lose a lot of my respect for him). So that I'm as [un]likely to worship any of them... aside from a certain degree of hero worship.
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Originally Posted by brainfreezy View Post
Speaking of which, what may help your sticking points is to get a red-letter edition Bible, where the words of Christ Himself are highlighted.Of course Christianity is about an individual's walk with Christ, not with His church (small-c). Without studying we are left with the interpretations of others. The only person that can tell you what Christ means to you is you. I think it is vague in some parts on purpose. Be it man-made or inspired, .
I agree that "The only person that can tell you what Christ means to you is you." But I disagree with "it is all we have to work with". As I've already written, I believe that the Gospels are flawed, the "letters of Paul" have some moments of beauty and truth... but are mostly abhorrent, a play for power in the young church. And let's pass over the drugged craziness of Revelations!
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If I can't dance, I want no part in your Revolution.
- Emma Goldman Anarchist and Polyamorous par excellence
The person who says something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.
- old Chinese proverb
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~ Anais Nin
I'd rather have a broken heart / Than have a heart of stone.
- from "Boundless Love (A Polyamory Song)" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson
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  #89  
Old 06-17-2011, 10:35 PM
serialmonogamist serialmonogamist is offline
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Well I've never encountered a bible verse that said that multiple husbands were not allowed but would both husbands be the head of the household? If so, how would that work?
I think it could work, especially in modern life where women can head their own households. The tricky part is conceptualizing how two individuals can be married and each be head of their own households. For example. a woman could have multiple children with multiple husbands if she could afford it and her husbands could do the same if they could afford it. This already happens in serial monogamy when you consider that people divorce and remarry other people who have other children from previous marriages. The only difference with polygamy is that you remain married instead of divorcing.
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  #90  
Old 06-17-2011, 11:22 PM
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I'm trying to reconcile spiritual beliefs with polyamory at the moment.

How do you reconcile Jesus supposed words 'man and woman becoming one flesh'? (it's something like that I can pull out the exact verse if need be).

The other biggie for me is Jesus likening a couple to being a pair of yoked oxen. As a mono in a mono/poly relationship this is a problem for me and others in similar situations. The more elements you add to into a relationship the more difficult it is to maintain an even yoking.
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