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  #711  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:09 AM
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Mohegan Mohegan is offline
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Originally Posted by ihaveasecret View Post
How can you be sure that playing around and getting a hickey is all that happened, even though you didn't want him to? Or when you say they played around, do you mean they fucked after he called to ask and you're okay with that? Or... how do you know he didn't fuck her anyway and just said nothing happened?

I can't be sure. Can we ever be 100% sure of anything? I can't continue to live a life of second guessing. He's put in a hell of a lot of work to show me that he is trying. All I can do is believe that he is genuine in what he says.

This is what is so confusing to me - how do you trust someone who has lied and cheated so many times before?
How do you continue to be in a relationship with someone who became so reclusive they never left their room and your only communication was over pain pills? The lying and the cheating is not the whole of who he is. For the most part it was a symptom of something being wrong in our relationship, and his past. We as humans often assosciate our spuses with the role models we had growing up. Karma often compared me to his mother and the results of situations with her. He didnt trust me to be okay with certain things, or to mean what I said about honesty, because his mother often said "if you tell the truth the punishment will be less" but then it would result in an even larger tantrum and punishment. Having had that as a basis his entire life, it was difficult to trust that any woman really meant what they said. With all that in mind, we started working on that. Are still working on that. It's not an easy thing to let go of when it's become a survival mechanism. He needs to have trust in me just as much as I do in him. He never gave me a chance to prove that I could be taken at my word. Something he learned very quickly as we ventured into this.

Don't you ever wonder if you're being made a fool again?
Is it me being made a fool? Or is if it were to happen again, is it not Karma makin himself look like an ass? Part of my healing was to let go of the 'being made a fool' thought process. My love for him allows me to forgive him. My understanding of his actions allows for me to forgive him. My strength in myself allows me to forgive him. If he were to cross boundries, cheat or lie again, it is not my fault, it's his. I am not at fault for his actions he is. I have provided a safe place for honesty, I have done my share of the work to repair our marriage, if he is being deceptive he has no reason to be and therefor it is on him not me. He can choose to live a free life out the open where he can have not only my love but that of others, or he can lie and be deceptive and take advantage of who I am what I have to give. Again that is not on me, that is on him.


Fatigue from... camping or sex? See, if my partner was that difficult to get information from, I'd wonder what he was hiding. But you do not have no doubt AT ALL about what went on between him and her or anyone else while he was away (or another time)?

I was a bit curious as to why the pull back. But after sleeping in his own bed, the next day I expressed my concern and we talked about it. He went into any detail I asked for and on his own accord went through and showed me pictures and talked quite a bit about her. Could he have been hiding something, sure. Again anything is possible and nothing is ever 100%, but I have no reason to believe otherwise.

What if you found out later that he broke boundaries again and just knows how to lie so well that he makes you believe he is reforming?
Karma is a terrible liar. But if by some magic intervention he was able to begin lying in such way, well there isn't much I can do without the truth of the matter. If I were to find out it was all a lie, then he would be packing his bags. There is only so much I can forgive and when I've given so much and worked so hard to fix ou problems, if that still wasn't enough to warrant his honesty, well then it's time to move the hell on.

What if you found out that he badmouths you and your illness to get away with fucking others? These things could happen. This is what my friend is going through with her husband who has been completely untrustworthy but had her fooled. What would be your plan of action to protect yourself?

This is again his problem and not mine. If he is that pathetic and shallow that he needs to bad mouth me in order to get laid, how is it my problem? My illness has been very hard on both of us. And there is a difference between venting and badmouthing. I have no doubt there have been times hes needed someone to listen. It is very difficult to be a caregiver to your spouse. If that venting led to other forms of compassion, well good for him. It's really good for the soul to have someone give a damn about you. But again this is on him. These are his actions and choices. As far having a plan in place to protect myself...when I love I love fully. It would hurt to find out that all we've worked for was a sham. But I know I have put my all into making it work.

I hope you don't mind me asking all this, but I find your story really compelling! I want to understand the issues in polyamory from every possible angle. It seems that, from what you have said here in this blog, you always let him come back. I don't think I could do that after one fuck-up, never mind numerous times!

I don't mind at all that's why it's out there. I never thought I would forgive it. But when your faced with it, it becomes a different story. There are reasons and realities that aren't in place in hypotheticals.

It's hard for me to grasp - how do you manage to hold onto your dignity and be able to face all those people who knew what he was doing and didn't tell you?
Again Karma's actions are not a reflection on who I am as a person. My dignity is not effected by my husband. I am my own person and in charge of my own choices and feelings. Just as he is his. Some of those who knew and never said a word, I no longer speak with, because there were promises there that were broken. And when it came down to it, their own guilt made it hard for them to face me, not the other way around. Others didn't know me well enough to feel it was their place, and in that I can't blame them. But that doesn't change who I am. There will always be naysayers in this world. There will always be people who say I should have left the first time. They do not live my life. For all the hurt and pain there has been much more joy in our 9 years together. I liken to the Garth Brooks song The Dance "I could have missed the pain, but I'd have mised the dance." I'm not willing to say the dance we've had hasn't been worth the pain.

A few years ago my dad was very ill and sitting in the hospital waiting room his sister told me I was better to marry someone who could take care of me than to marry for love. "Do you think your mother would have married him if she's known their lives would be rocked by his medical problems over and over?" I was stunned that his own sister could say this. Of course I think my mother would have married him knowing that. They have a love that has survived 31 yrs of what life could throw at them. Including the first 3 years of their marriage having them assigned to military bases hundreds of miles apart. My dad had 3 heart attacks and my mom who wanted to be a stay at home mom, went to work fulltime to cover bills while he recouped. They are not perfect people, but they love eachother and they have weathered lifes storms by clinging to that love. I don't see what I am doing as any different.

You don't marry for ease. Honestly marriage would be quite boring if we did. You marry for love. And in that love you learn to care for eachother, faults and all. Mistakes happen. It's hard to relearn how to live when you were living to survive for so long.


In the beginning of this thread, even other members here asked you asked you why you forgave him so easily and stayed. And yet here you still are, quickly forgiving his lies and certain he will be honest from now on.
The forgiveness was not quick. It took a lot of work. And when I found out about the last round I was seriously considering divorce. Had been for sometime. We decided to give it a year. To put in the work and in a year we'd decide if it was worth keeping. We celebrated that year this past May and we are obviously still together. It took a lot of self work, a lot of healing and a lot of work together to get to where we are.

I stayed because I love him. Because he is so much more than a cheater. Because he gets me, to my core he understands me. I can fully and completely be myself with him. I can share my dreams with him and I can share my sorows with him. And in that he is fully present. He is protective of me, even when some of his actions say otherwise. There is no one I can be as completely me with as I can with him. He says he's not a teacher, yet he can help understand things in a way that doesn't make me feel like an idiot. When I got sick with one of my many issues, he was at every dr's appt and took it on himself to learn about female reproduction so he could fully understand what I was going through. He takes care of me. He aside from my mother, is the only person I feel safe and comfortable enough to be completely vulnerable with. So why did I stay, why did I forgive? Because there is so much more to a person than their mistakes.


I'm sure we all could learn something from you! What a lesson! Thanks.
I hope there is something to be learned from it all. No matter how small the lesson.
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  #712  
Old 07-27-2011, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Mohegan View Post
I stayed because I love him. Because he is so much more than a cheater. Because he gets me, to my core he understands me. I can fully and completely be myself with him. I can share my dreams with him and I can share my sorows with him. And in that he is fully present. He is protective of me, even when some of his actions say otherwise. There is no one I can be as completely me with as I can with him. He says he's not a teacher, yet he can help understand things in a way that doesn't make me feel like an idiot. When I got sick with one of my many issues, he was at every dr's appt and took it on himself to learn about female reproduction so he could fully understand what I was going through. He takes care of me. He aside from my mother, is the only person I feel safe and comfortable enough to be completely vulnerable with. So why did I stay, why did I forgive? Because there is so much more to a person than their mistakes.

BEAUTIFUL!!! You have expressed exactly what I have shared with others about our situation and our relationship. While J does do some things that are hurtful and so on, he is so much more than that. J has also been to all of my doctors appointments. If I'm not feeling well and having a bad pain day, he is the first one at my side to see how he can help and what he can do.

J saved my life when I had my accident. There is a depth added to a relationship when you go through something like that, that wouldn't be there otherwise. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we can't live life without the other so long as we have a choice in it. He stole my heart the moment I met him and he tells me all the time that I stole his that moment as well. Nobody is perfect!! We all do stupid stuff time and again. But, it's really wonderful when we know that we have someone in our lives that loves us regardless and is willing to help us better ourselves and work through it so that we can try to avoid those mistakes again in the future. I am a better person because of J. While things do hurt that he does sometimes, I wouldn't change it one bit because it has helped us both grow to be the people that we are today, to have a depth to our relationship that we never thought possible.

Yes, he's made mistakes, but he is as well, so much more than that. He is an amazingly beautiful human being that truly loves me.

Beautiful responses M!!
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  #713  
Old 07-27-2011, 04:56 AM
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I'm glad you have the strength to see it that way so early on.

Some people choose to see Karma as this horrible person who is only out for himself. People have claimed to love him and then turned their backs.

When I love, I love fully. And I am not going to run away simply because there are problems. When you love someone you work through the issues. Those that see him that way, never understood the gift they really had by having him in their lives. That's their loss.

We've hurt eachother, in different ways. But we've given eachother the chance to move past that. That's what love is.

All I can do is be honest and true to who I am. This is the path I've chosen to walk, and I'll walk it proudly.

The other thing that comes to mind is how do you ever know if your partner is cheating? I would rather have it out in the open than be one of those couples that divorces after 20yrs b/c one of them has been having an affair the whole time.

Last edited by Mohegan; 07-27-2011 at 05:13 AM.
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  #714  
Old 07-27-2011, 05:11 AM
ihaveasecret ihaveasecret is offline
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Thank you for answering my questions so truthfully and directly.

Regarding your last post... it is admirable to stand by someone who has made mistakes, even terrible ones, and to do lots of work on a difficult relationship with someone you so deeply love.

But do you think there is ever a point where the disrespectful treatment you receive (lying, cheating) tips the scales too much toward a painful direction - so that trying to fix the relationship is no longer an option? Do you have a personal "mile marker" or threshhold which means the absolute end if he crosses it? Or is your willingness to forgive never-ending? To me, there's got to be a realization that allowing too much is just setting oneself up for abuse. And also, do you consider his treatment of other people (poly relationships) when you look at how he is and the kind of man you want to be with?

Last edited by ihaveasecret; 07-27-2011 at 05:38 AM.
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  #715  
Old 07-27-2011, 05:48 AM
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But do you think there is ever a point where the disrespectful treatment you receive (lying, cheating) tips the scales too much toward a painful direction - so that trying to fix the relationship is no longer an option?

If it were to appear more a personal desire to be deceptive rather than in ingrained response of survival that he had grown up with. I would probably readdress things. I cannot honestly say "this is the thing that will be the end all" I won't know unless I'm there. But now that I have a clearer understanding of why things went the way they did, I only slightly see it as disrespect. He had to live for a very long time in cover your ass mode, just to survive his home life. This was all he knew. You cannot take a fish and put it on land and demand it breathe the way you and I do. I s it possible, through evolution, adaptation, outside help? Yes, but with none of that support the fish will flop around and freak out trying to suck in water that isnt there.

Do you have a personal "mile marker" or threshhold which means the absolute end if he crosses it?

No I don't. Because every situation is dependant on the circumstances. I have a childhood friend who I lost contact with for several years. The last time I saw her, her dad was being hauled away by the cops for beating the shit out of her mother. Shortly after, they moved. I had always assumed her parents had split. That is for many the end all. After years of abuse, he almost killed her. I thought in my inexperienced mind, that he obviously could not change and they had divorced. I got back in contact with her a few years ago and was surprised to find out that not only had her parents stayed together, but her dad had been sober for 10 + years and had never laid another hand on either of them. Her family was finaly healed and whole.

For some, they would have left at the first sign of abuse, for some the instance of him almost killing her would have been the end all. But for her mom, she knew this man, she knew that he was more than an abuser and she knew he had the desire to change. So she stayed with him, supported him and for them, they are now living a happy ending.

I think every person in a relationship needs to take stock of their situation and decide for them what the best option is. No one knows what it is to live that persons life or to live in that relationship.


Or is your willingness to forgive never-ending?
I will always have a willingness to forgive. I've had a lot of shit happen in my life and have always found the strength and ability to forgive. Do I have a breaking point, most likely, but I haven't reached it yet.

To me, there's got to be a realization that allowing too much is just setting oneself up for abuse.
I will be no ones door mat. But I will also not walk away from someone who is trying. I've made several repetitive mistakes in my life. Had my parents walked away,I'd be dead by now. Instead they showed me the meaning of unconditional love and allowed me the chance to learn how to grow through love and forgiveness.

And also, do you consider his treatment of other people, too, when you look at how he is and the kind of man you want to be with?

Absolutely. He is loyal to a fault-even when he has been repetedly betrayed or treated unjustly. He puts himself out there and tries to save the world when he's got his own shit to be worried about. He is a loving Uncle and Godfather. He is fiercely protective of the women in his life. He has a personal moral code that I admire. He has personal beliefs that he will do whatever it takes for. He has never treated another in a way that has made me question the man I am with. It is in fact how he is with others, that adds to why I love him as much as I do. The sacrafices I have seen him make for those that are important in his life, make me step back and feel honored that he chose to ask me to be his wife.
Like I said earlier, I would rather go through what we have and be aware of it and have the chance to fix it. Than be in a marriage with no comunication whatsoever.
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  #716  
Old 07-27-2011, 05:53 AM
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In response to your edit-of how he treats people in poly relationships, yes in that as well from what I saw he attempted to give the one relationship he had, all he could. He did all he thought was expected and needed. From what I saw of their relationship, I saw a man deeply in love and willing to do whatever it took to make it work. How could I not love that man? He tried to learn and grow as things went, as most people do. Once we were open, he followed boundries and did what I needed to make the transition easier. He treats the women he is with like princesses, I don't see how that could possibly be a deterant.

Not to say that he's a saint. He obviously makes mistakes like every other human being. Things went took a bad turn with Cricket when they both failed at communication. Any relationship is doomed if you bottle things up instead of working on them.

But in his relationships he has never shown me anything to make me question why I am with him.

Last edited by Mohegan; 07-27-2011 at 06:55 AM.
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  #717  
Old 07-27-2011, 06:20 AM
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Wow, I've become quite the topic of conversation all the sudden

You seem to have a lot of questions, Secret, and I'm glad you're asking us - well, Mo anyway - because we both have an open book policy here. In other words, feel free to ask whatever is on your mind, because we're both notoriously difficult to offend and bluntly honest, even if the honest answer to a question you pose is "I don't know", you're not going to ask something we (or her, you haven't asked me anything yet) aren't comfortable answering.

In the beginning, a lot of my personal issues and reasons for the cheating/lying was that I didn't believe I could trust Mo to be as honest as she clamied she would be. In spite of being with her for years, that level of honesty was just something that I couldn't even comprehend, much less buy into. I grew up hearing one thing from the people in my life, and then when I acted on what they had told me, all the sudden the situation or their reactions were in no way what they had told me they would be, and I had just assumed that everyone was that way. It's what I had seen my entire life - not making excuses for my actions, but I literally didn't know that things could be any other way.

Once I came clean to Mo about everything, and after our infamous Night of Complete Honesty (yes, that's a proper noun), I've done my best to keep everything about my other relationship (there has been only one until very recently) above board and honest, from both Mo's perspective and my exes perspective. I didn't cheat on either of them after that point - there was no reason to do so. The issues in our marriage that had led me on my stirng on one night stands before I met and fell for my ex were either fixed or being worked on, and I had two women in my life that I was head over heels in love with. I never felt the need to look elsewhere for anything, and no one else ever caught my eye in that way, aside from the occasional "hey, she's hot!" that every guy does. There was something of an exception made for someone who had been in my and Mo's life for a long time, but even then I was honest with them both about things - and also honest with her husband about it. In the end, that turned out to be a mistake and we both realized it, but that's a topic for another discussion.

The key thing here for both me and Mo was/is trust. I never trusted her enough to be honest with her about our issues, which led to me hiding things from her when I went elsewhere to get certain needs met, because I didn't trust her to be OK with me looking elsewhere for those needs. I think the wierdest part of that, from my end, is that I never even REALIZED that I didn't trust her - it had become so ingrained into my nature that the distrust was no longer a conscious decision on my part, it was just how I lived and thought on a day to day basis.

When I told Mo that I had fallen for Cricket, her response to me was "You're an idiot for thinking that you can only love one person, and a bigger idiot for hiding it from me." That one line was like a wrecking ball right through my whole outlook on life. I was absolutely floored. "She wasn't pissed off about me being with other women, she was pissed off at me for lying about it? HOW DOES THAT EVEN WORK? WHAT PLANET AM I ON?" It shattered the reality I had been living in - but in a good way. Messy to be sure, but good.

Hopefully we're being helpful here. Any more questions?
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Old 07-27-2011, 02:42 PM
Livingmybestlife Livingmybestlife is offline
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I haven't posted in a long while, but decided to come out of my cocoon for this.

I can so relate to the following

This is what is so confusing to me - how do you trust someone who has lied and cheated so many times before?
How do you continue to be in a relationship with someone who became so reclusive they never left their room and your only communication was over pain pills? The lying and the cheating is not the whole of who he is. For the most part it was a symptom of something being wrong in our relationship, and his past. We as humans often assosciate our spuses with the role models we had growing up. Karma often compared me to his mother and the results of situations with her. He didnt trust me to be okay with certain things, or to mean what I said about honesty, because his mother often said "if you tell the truth the punishment will be less" but then it would result in an even larger tantrum and punishment. Having had that as a basis his entire life, it was difficult to trust that any woman really meant what they said. With all that in mind, we started working on that. Are still working on that. It's not an easy thing to let go of when it's become a survival mechanism. He needs to have trust in me just as much as I do in him. He never gave me a chance to prove that I could be taken at my word. Something he learned very quickly as we ventured into this.


My husband of 15 years was abused as a child, actually through out his relationship with his mother. This has finally come out in our relationship, he doesn't trust me not to be her. He has actually replaced me in his mind as her and lies all the time over stupid stuff either out of getting away with it as it is easier and less scary to trust me or less conflict or just because he has decided things I need in place are stupid so he will hide them like he did his mother.
He had all this blow up in his face right before memorial day and we are now separated until he can get his head togather and we can go to marriage counseling. He now sees his our relationship how he was tainted in his thoughts over money and relationships with others. Money I just asked him to take responsbility and know how much was available not to spend like he was rich. Relationships I asked for a heads up no more. He acted in a manner of me being controlling, by me saying there is x money available I was a prision warden, by asking for a heads up the same. I know he is under stress with my chronic illness. But I deserve better.

The irony is i am the poly one, and he is mono. I can relate so much and yes I do continue to forgive and Mo struck something with me with the how do you except a fish to breath when it knows, no different.

Thank you Mo! He was understanding my stance of no one more chances, just work on your stuff. I told him I expect him to fuck up and but I need to see action of trying to learn to breath. Thats all an effort and him reading your post helped him understand. So that you both Karma and Mo!
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Old 07-27-2011, 04:42 PM
Minxxa Minxxa is offline
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Beautiful posts Mo.

It's really nice to see the work the two of you have done this past year, as my hubs and I are in the middle of doing that as well. Not so much with the honesty (we got through that one finally a few years ago), but with the honest, open communication ALL of the time. It's definitely a process, but it's so worth it.

It's not always so easy to find somebody who gets you so completely, ALL of you, and loves you.

As far as the trust and honesty-- yes, my husband was the same way in that he didn't fully trust me to be open to honesty, either. I can't say I blame him either, I know enough people who say they want honesty and then flip out when they get it. It took quite a few years for him to get it. And believe it. And still, I think his first reaction sometimes is not to tell me some things-- it's like a bad habit, it's been automatic so long it just wants to happen right away. But he's worked so hard in the past couple of years, and especially this past 6 months to open up the communication and to really open himself to people in general. There's still work to be done, but then really-- how many of us DON'T have work to do?

But my life is so much more complete, and honest, and so many other things now than it ever has been. Do we still have issues come up? Yes. Do we still have communication problems? Yes. But we're learning how to deal with them better and better each time.

A few months ago I read your whole blog, Mo... and I've kept up with it. Mostly because some aspects really resonated with me, but also because seeing people do the work, and go through the process-- it's helped me sometimes when things get hard to see the ups and downs are part of it all, and what you do about it is the important part.
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Old 07-27-2011, 07:45 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Oh hey lee i was just thinking about you today. [/hijack]
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