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  #31  
Old 05-06-2010, 03:35 PM
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The point is though that, if before you have sex in someones car, you think, "I don't think they will like that we are doing it," but you go and do it anyway, and then don't tell them.... That would be the omission I am talking about. And that to me is lying. I would not tell them after, because I don't think they should take my guilt burden on. I certainly would feel guilty and because I don't want to feel guilty, I wouldn't do it again.

Basically, for me, if I think someone won't like something and think it may make me feel guilty, then I don't do it because that guilt creates an energy that does harm to me and others. I start perseverating on it and it breaks the connection I have with someone. I prefer to have the deepest connections ever. Untampered with and pure. Quick releases are not worth it often. Its better to wait for better opportunities. As nerdist says, "go for great, not good in life."
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  #32  
Old 05-06-2010, 03:42 PM
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I have to say that omission is lying for the most part. It depends on what you are leaving out. If you know the part you are leaving out will affect the outome then it is not an honest outcome because the person you are telling does not have all the facts and therefore makes an unfair judgement or decision. Without knowing everything, they are falsely being led down a path that they might not want or choose otherise.
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  #33  
Old 05-07-2010, 12:59 AM
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Omitting means:

1 : something neglected, left out, or left undone
2 : the act, fact, or state of leaving something out or failing to do something


It's not a "bad" thing or a "good" thing.

I could omit the curse word from my sentence, that might be a good thing.
I could omit a detail that would confuse a situation, that might also be a good thing.

BUT if you omit something in an attempt to keep information from someone then you start getting into shady ground.

One of the things I read about when I decided to come out poly was about the difference between following rules "to the letter" or following "the heart" of a rule.

A rule is designed for a reason. In the example in this case MG, the reason was to protect something percieved as "sacred" to some degree to Kat. By omitting the fact that the thing to be protected had already been.... "used" (I lack a good word here sorry!)-while it may have been with the best of INTENTIONS-the omission went against the HEART of the rule she was requesting....

When we break the heart of a rule-we lose trust and we lose faith of the person who asked for the rule or expected the rule to be upheld.

The bottom line isn't "was it right" or "was it fair",
the bottom line is does this action (omiting or not omiting information) help myself and/or the other person to be the best that they can be.

GENERALLY speaking-omitting information to keep another from hurting-does NOT help myself or the other person to be the best that we can be.

Hurt is OFTEN the catalyst for growth-so if we keep the hurt from a person-we often are keeping the growth from them as well.



Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Basically, for me, if I think someone won't like something and think it may make me feel guilty, then I don't do it because that guilt creates an energy that does harm to me and others. I start perseverating on it and it breaks the connection I have with someone. I prefer to have the deepest connections ever. Untampered with and pure. Quick releases are not worth it often. Its better to wait for better opportunities. As nerdist says, "go for great, not good in life."
Exactly (hadn't gotten to this page yet )

It's not about whether or not I'm "breaking a rule" it's about whether or not my actions are promoting me being the best I can be, the other person being the best that they can be (or other people) AND promoting the relationships to be the best that they can be.


FOR EXAMPLE:

There is no rule in MY relationship that says I can't flirt horribly with Mon. BUT Mon has a preference for certain behaviors-and it's OBVIOUS in person that if I were to jump into his arms and kiss all over him-he would be VERY uncomfortable.
THEREFORE-it's not about RULES-it's about making my relationship with Mon the best that IT can be and helpinge each of us be the best that we can be. I can do that better by NOT pushing those limits.
It doesn't MATTER if it would or would not bother RP-not because her feelings don't matter, they do, but there is ALREADY an negativity in the activity before her feelings (or Maca's or GG's are even brought in).

Does that make any sense?

It's really truly about the HEART of the matter. The biggest problem in these situations is that people are thinking about the heart of the matter TO THEM-and forgetting that there are more than two people involved, we need to think of the heart of the matter for EACH person involved, not just our own.
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Last edited by NeonKaos; 05-07-2010 at 01:43 AM. Reason: merge posts
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  #34  
Old 05-07-2010, 09:16 AM
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It's all about trust. If you lie to me by saying something which is false, or if you intentionally withhold information for selfish reasons, you're betraying my trust. If I had a partner who routinely withheld information, I would not trust them, and that would be the end of the relationship.

I feel that people who deliberately omit details and claim it isn't lying do so in order to get away with things with a clean conscience. "Well, she never asked, so I didn't lie. I'm off the hook." I think that's a cop-out and pure bullshit. It means that you're only accountable for your actions if your partner is clever enough, or mistrusting enough, to ask you every conceivable detail. It puts the responsibility for your own behaviour into another person's hands by forcing them to think of every way you could betray them and ask you directly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morningglory629 View Post
How can omission be lying? If the request is, "I would prefer you didn't have sex in my car." And the answer is, "Okay I won't have sex in your car." Lying would be if you have sex in the car after the request was made; omission would be the thought: "Well I already had sex in the car, telling her will annoy/upset/cause an unnecessary meltdown because there is no erasing history but I will not have sex in her car in the future."
Lying is an act of communication. Having sex in the car after the request was made is breaking a promise.

Ultimately, who really cares whether it's "technically" lying? What's more important is that it's a breakdown in communication, and good communication is critical to maintaing a relationship. LR hit the nail on the head. It's about the heart of the matter, not the letter of the law. I think we all agree that if someone rapes a 12 year old but leaves no evidence, he is still a guilty piece of shit, and we would all want justice for that little girl even though the letter of the law says he's innocent since we can't prove his guilt.
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  #35  
Old 05-07-2010, 11:42 PM
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Precisely Schroeder.

It's not the letter of the law (I couldn't think of those words yesterday!) It's about the HEART of the matter.
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  #36  
Old 05-08-2010, 01:00 AM
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All valid answers. The most interesting I thought was when someone said omission is actually preventing the person you are "protecting" from growing. True.
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  #37  
Old 05-08-2010, 01:31 AM
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That was me.
I learned that lesson the hard way.
Much much easier to learn by hearing people say it than by trying it yourself.
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  #38  
Old 05-08-2010, 10:52 PM
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this response pertains to omission of partners or sexual relations or attraction btw,
In my honest opinion... unless you and your partner(s) have a "don't ask don't tell" policy.... then yeah omission is lying.
but by the same token, i get the "but he/she never asked"
i mean, relationships are confusing as it is, throw in the poly lifestyle and it can get a whole lot more! especially if you involve "old flames" or if you have communication issues in the primary relationship to begin with.
I get why some people do not tell all when it pertains to attractions or relationships or sexual encounters... sometimes it can be out of fear. fear of pain, fear of loss.... fear of facing problems head on.
I think whether it is something as simple as "i'm considering the possibility another relationship" and not telling your partner until you know for sure or if it is the ultimate omission in a relationship of "i had sex with this person"...omission is not trusting the other person or respecting the other person to be able to handle the situation (as previously mentioned in this thread by somebody else) but is it wrong? I don't think so. Is it the best course of action to take, no it is not.
as somebody who struggles with the "why" of actions and feelings in order to work thru them, i can understand "why" you'd not tell all the facts but by the same token... is the short term gain of not telling all worth the long term pain of it being found out later on after the fact and then the damage has been done that you actively hid something... because that is what omisson is... actively hiding. you possess knowledge you know the other partner should have, but are withholding it.
but then again, if you look to the person who "omitted" something... where they really actively hiding? or were they constantly tryign to find ways to say it but simply lacked the words or the strength to "cop up" becausae of confusion....
i agree with an earlier post... there is no "right" or 'wrong" when it comes to omission because you need to look at the person's intentions, their actions, their heart, and the situation.
omitting a sexual fling because you just wanted to have fun and broke a rule and dont want your partner to find out.. wrong.
omitting a sexual fling because you have communication issues in your relationhsip and have tried to tell your partner but have fallen short each time...
grey area
omitting an attraction to a person because you are in a monogamous realtionship and don't want to hurt your partners feelings...
grey area
omitting the fact that you don't like strawberries cause your partner went to the huge trouble of making you a strawberry shortcake from scratch for your birthday cake...
yeah,
soooo much grey.
is omission lying, yeah. is it wrong, i dont think so. is it the best action to take hells no!
look to the person's heart, work thru the issue, admit it was not the best action to take but that you see "why" and move on to a better relationship because of it.
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Last edited by NeonKaos; 05-08-2010 at 11:10 PM.
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  #39  
Old 05-09-2010, 02:35 PM
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In general, I feel like omission is lying. I'm not talking about omission in the sense of not telling your partner(s) about every tiny aspect of your day. That's just silly, I'd be lying all the time by being unable to remember everything. I mean, willfully not saying something because you either know or worry it's going to cause some kind of upset or just get you in trouble.

I used to be like that. I'd try to reason ways I could NOT tell my partner something because I worried it would upset him. I'd try to tell myself it was for a noble reason or for "not hurting him," but that's a falsehood. I was only sparing myself from dealing with the fallout for something stupid I did. I find it's better to own up and accept the blame if I did wrong rather than trying to get around it. And that to me is just selfish and now how I want to conduct myself. Communication is hard enough without keeping important things to yourself.

The way we deal with it is we try to use our better judgment. I ask myself, "Is this something my partner would like to know? Am I doing something that would betray his trust or hurt his feelings?" We try to keep one another in our thoughts and make the best decisions. Ultimately, it's situational and it depends on the individual in question. For instance, I know my boyfriend prefers total honesty, even if he knows it might hurt him. Now, I'm very much the same way. I'd rather know about it, deal with it and move on.

It's safe to say I know for the most part when my partner would want to know something. And if I'm at all unsure, I'll bring it up anyway. Then at least I know if it's something he'd care to know in the future.
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  #40  
Old 05-10-2010, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honestheart View Post
unless you and your partner(s) have a "don't ask don't tell" policy.... then yeah omission is lying.
actually, to me, anyone that practices this policy is actually lying to themselves... lying that their primary relationship has a loving leg to stand on anymore... at least from what I have seen.
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