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  #11  
Old 08-20-2012, 09:21 AM
charlesgarnier charlesgarnier is offline
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I don?t want to spend time to explain why I cheated Anna, to what point I consider it can be excused and to what point I'm guilty. I agree I betrayed her in some way, and even if I explain how and why, you have the right to judge me. Nobody should ever cheat, many do, many judge. That's life. We should have talk more deeply of our needs, of how to behave if something occurs, I have regrets about that. I know some would divorce and throw up a wonderful marriage and a family for one single cheating, Anna and I are not this kind of person, I am rather proud of that. Anyway, I need her to forgive me, and that was the first step of our rebuilding. Of course Anna can divorce in good material conditions, I will help her to. Divorcing is never neutral, but she can do that if she wants. She?s courageous enough to divorce anyway if she finds it the best solution and I do not want her to stay with me for bad reasons.

To be clear, you don't help me by saying I had an unethical behavior. I know that, my only issue is what to do next.

I think you don't understand how strongly I fell in love with Chris. I have never felt something like that. I think of her almost every single minute. We share an average of one sms every 20 minutes since three years. Not leaving together is a terrible decision.

I think you don't understand how strongly I love Anna. We grew up together, she is my complement. We trust each other, we need each other, we are proud of each other. She is a wonderful woman, I am proud of being married to her.

I could have quit Anna to Chris. Some of you, finding a passionate love, would have done that, I'm sure. It was not my choice, neither was it Chris'one.

I could have quit Chris. I would have lived the rest of my life thinking perhaps I had lost the love of my life. I think Anna and Chris' husband understood that and don't think it is easy rebuilding a happy marriage on a background of a frustrated passion. I would have had the same reasonment the same for Anna.

After months of discussion, initial cheating is becoming to be beyond us. From the moment everybody knows everything, there is no more cheating, that?s clear for me. The situation is transparent. Everybody can afford to leave (even on the material point of view), so not leaving is a choice. Marriage is not a prison. Everybody is free.

I know I can quit Anna and Chris, look for somebody new by saying "hello now I know I?m poly, I propose you an ethical agreement" But I don't find it a good solution. I have to do with the real situation.

Anna is not sure to be mono. She is questioning about that. We are questioning. So do Chris and I. I exclude nothing. I just look for a path for happiness for me and for those I love. I think strongly that there is a better way than extreme grief and suffering.
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  #12  
Old 08-20-2012, 11:40 AM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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Sounds like everyone is settling. Anna and the other husband because it not painful enough to leave. Not happy ....tolerating it. How many years of being Unhappy spouses before resentment builds and something snaps.


You and Chris are settling for a fraction of a relationship you'd like to have.


All the long term plans you've made together as a couple how do they look today?

Do you a get together, all 4 and talk?
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  #13  
Old 08-20-2012, 01:48 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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I hear your side of the story. But I do not see Anna or Chris or Chris Husband on here to share their side. We only hear YOUR PERCEPTION of their side.

I get that you feel strongly about both. I get that you are all suffering.

You don't seem to get that what you THINK they feel or say to you -- may not be entire truthiness any more because they are damaged people. You seem happier thinking all is rosier than it very well may be. So be it. You travel blind then.

Quote:
To be clear, you don't help me by saying I had an unethical behavior. I know that, my only issue is what to do next.
It is hard to give you advice, because you do not state what you WANT in clear terms.

You seem to want absolution. Nobody can give you that. Not even Anna. You just have to bear it and let it fade down in time to a tolerable level.

You seem to WANT an ethical polyship with Anna and Chris in some kind of "V" with the husband's ok. But you hardly mention him so who knows if you even want him in the picture somewhere.

If this is what you want? Then you just ask them all if they can give it.

I am not getting clearly that this conversation has happened. If it hasn't -- get on with it then!

1) You apologize AND make amends for the mess making. (You witter, but do not clearly state -- YES! I have apologized to Anna! I am making ammends by ....)

2) You GIVE (not merely offer) Anna a full half of funds in her name to make SURE she is speaking freely when she decides to stay in it or not. If nothing else, if you love her as much as you say you do? You ensure she is protected financially -- even from YOU! (You witter about her being fine materially -- but you do not clearly state -- YES! She has half of all our stuff in her name only! She could leave me any time she wants with her checkbook!)

3) You ask ALL FOUR if they can enter into ethical polyship with you. So the ladies are in a relationship with you in a "V" configuration and the husband is your metamour. (You witter, but you do not clearly state -- YES! We have had this conversation to take everyone's temperature on that possibility. The results of the conversation are : Charles wants yes. Anna wants... Chris wants.... Chris Husband wants...)

4) If one or all say NO, then you have to do the honorable, ethical thing and break up. Either into the 2 original marriages or 4 singles. END the previous contracts with all these people in as good a way possible in the circumstances.

Then if some of you want to start OVER together, it is from a clean place with a new contract.

(You witter, and seem to be unhappy thinking this may have to be on the table -- a full break up. Get over it. It is on the table if you wish to be ethical. If you do not wish to be ethical, CLEARLY STATE SO. )

4)If yes, all are willing... Then you get a counselor to help you sort out what your rights and responsibilities to each other will be in the new framework so everyone's needs are met for mental health safety, emotional health safety, physical health safety, and spiritual health safety. What are your agreements for how to treat each other so you are in right relationship to one another and not damaging each other any more now or in future?

You need a pro because you guys are no good at creating your own agreements and keeping to them. There are also seriously hurt feelings, hurt people, and things that need airing out and processing -- that requires a pro. You will all go through the stages of grief and that needs to be addressed appropriately so you are not hurling hurts at each other and digging yourselves deeper into the hole. That neutral, objective professional is not you even if you were a counselor by trade. Own this, and get counselor(s).

4) You ask ALL FOUR for the wants, needs, and limits in such an arrangement. Speak up now, clearly, from the heart. Everyone has the right to clear communication and for this to ever work despite all this mess -- people have to start Speaking Their Truth. If even at a whisper. SPIT IT OUT. If all want an ethical polyship, then you all spend time learning about poly. www.morethantwo.com and serolynne are free places online to start. Get the books and other resources you need on ethical poly, love theory, communication skills, relationship kills, and all the rest that you may need.

5) If other professionals are required get them -- bankers, lawyers, babysitters, a yard guy. Whoever you need in your transition time of "Married Cheating Partners and Their Sad Spouses ----> A happy polyship of 4 people in a "V" arrangement."

To help you draw up agreements, papers, keep the kids or tend the homes to create the TIME you need to be a foursome working toward the common goal of a happier, more harmonious polyship. Time will not fall out of the sky. You will have to MAKE THE TIME.

I would strongly suggest you ALL maintain 4 separate income tracks. Lumping everything together at this stage in a rocky polyship is infinitely FOOLISH. Everyone should have their income track so if they have to walk away -- THEY CAN WALK IMMEDIATELY. Even YOU don't need Anna flipping a gasket and taking all your shared stuff you hold jointly and leaving you homeless.

Everyone have their own separate. That goes a long way to easing some of the mental health strain of Maslow's needs on the most bottom level -- the physiological needs of food, water, shelter.

You guys hit rock bottom and need to climb back up.

6) You try the new Experiment on for a Time. A year? Don't leave it open. Pick a time limit for the Experiment to run all can agree to. Shake out the bugs and see if this is going to be a long term runner or not.

7) At the end of a year, you re-evaluate where you are all at. Who is still in? Who needs out?

There. A possible map. It's pretty clear to me what needs doing if this is what you really want.

So get on with it, man!

Be ethical, set things to right, learn to be a man of your word. Talk to your people!

GL!
GalaGirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 08-20-2012 at 07:51 PM.
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  #14  
Old 08-20-2012, 01:53 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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What is sms? Texting? You said you and Chris text each other, on average, every 20 mins? That is 3 times an hour, 24 hrs a day? Since one must work and sleep, there must have been time when Anna observed you texting Chris for an hour or two at a time when you were in the same room, I would think. Smiling, giggling in response to Chris' texts... perhaps becoming sexually aroused.

And that went on for several months before she finally checked your phone and saw you were having an affair.

Now, over 2 1/2 years have gone by since you were caught cheating. You love Chris, you love Anna. Anna and Chris' husband have had soulless loveless affairs, now that the marriages are considered "open." They are unhappy. You say Chris' husband is just hanging in waiting for his wife to get over her lover and come back to him. But 3 years later, she's still with you.

Everyone just seems to be waiting for someone else to make a move. Will Anna leave you? Will Chris' husband leave her? Will Chris leave her husband and move in with you?

Someone better shit or get off the pot. Y'all are in a sad state of limbo.
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  #15  
Old 08-20-2012, 01:58 PM
charlesgarnier charlesgarnier is offline
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It's strange to see so many people so full of certitudes. Cheating is very wrong, nobody ethical would do that in any citconstances, if my husband cheat once, I divorce at once and destroy everything without a second of hesitation. I bless Anna being more intelligent than that.

I'm truly loving two people. So does Chris. This is polyamory. I just wonder if there is a balanced situation which could make us and our spouses happy, despite those bad beginnings.
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  #16  
Old 08-20-2012, 02:14 PM
WhatHappened WhatHappened is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlesgarnier View Post
I know some would divorce and throw up a wonderful marriage and a family for one single cheating, Anna and I are not this kind of person, I am rather proud of that.
Anna is not that kind of person, and possibly for the very practical reasons GG has named. "One single cheating" is the kind of dismissive thing that leaves me feeling you don't really own up to the seriousness of this. "One single cheating" is not a little thing, this isn't like a kid growing up who has multiple chances to learn, and, oops, one little dish got broken, no biggie. Cheating, to the one who was cheated on, is devastating. The lying that almost invariably goes with it messes with the mind. It's called gaslighting. It leaves the cheat-ee questioning their own mental stability at times as they try to match up what they see with the words of one they trust to tell them the truth.

"One single cheating" often leaves the cheat-ee questioning their self-worth, and deep in depression and self-loathing and hatred as they see how blatantly they could be disregarded and disrespected and lied to even by the one person who is supposed to love and cherish them most in the world.

I think among the steps you need to take IF YOU REALLY WANT SOMETHING SOLID TO DO TO HELP THIS MARRIAGE is take the time to really GET how it feels to be cheated on, the very depths to which it can take the cheat-ee. As long as you regard it as 'one single cheating,' you will not fully grasp what Anna is going through, and that means you will never be able to offer her the genuine remorse people need to fully recover from being cheated on and lied to.



Quote:
I think you don't understand how strongly I fell in love with Chris. .... I think you don't understand how strongly I love Anna.
See, again, this is the kind of thing that leads me to feel you don't necessarily want to hear what's being said here. You're making excuses. Do you really think that no one on this board understands how powerful love and passion can be? Do you really believe that old fairy tale that this is so powerful that no one but you and Anna/you and Chris have ever experienced it? That somehow the force of those feelings, which have never before occurred to anyone in thousands of years of history of mankind, give you the right to behave differently from normal ethical standards?


Quote:
I could have quit Chris. I would have lived the rest of my life thinking perhaps I had lost the love of my life. I think Anna and Chris' husband understood that and don't think it is easy rebuilding a happy marriage on a background of a frustrated passion. I would have had the same reasonment the same for Anna.
And once again, what I see in your statements is all about how this is affecting you, your great passion, your great dilemma, your great desire to have both women, your great love story that would eclipse anything ever seen on the silver screen.

I think the situation will never really be resolved until you develop more empathy for everyone around you and start realizing that ethical people are not ruled by their passions; they govern themselves by a code of behavior that does not change because they feel something really, really strong; they govern themselves by a code of behavior strongly influenced by empathy for how their behavior affects others, which is exactly why many of us here would not in fact cheat on our spouses, no matter how passionate we feel about someone else.

Last edited by WhatHappened; 08-20-2012 at 02:18 PM.
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  #17  
Old 08-20-2012, 02:55 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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I'm confused you think 4-5 people with an ethical code is a lot .."so many"

what about me ? full of certitude too ?

the questions and comments I asked had nothing to do with cheating.


You might not like this question either but ...what have you and Chris done or offered to help the struggle spouses? Any of that text time devoted to making things better.

Are you currently operating in a hierarchical manner. Spouses being primary ...others are secondary? How would you like it to be?

Last edited by dingedheart; 08-20-2012 at 03:01 PM.
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  #18  
Old 08-20-2012, 04:22 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Quote:
Cheating is very wrong, nobody ethical would do that in any citconstances, if my husband cheat once, I divorce at once and destroy everything without a second of hesitation. I bless Anna being more intelligent than that.
Cheating -- well, best not to go there is possible. Having GONE there? Best to own up immediately! Failing to do that? Now it is even harder to move it forward. As you are experiencing.

Quote:
I'm truly loving two people. So does Chris. This is polyamory. I just wonder if there is a balanced situation which could make us and our spouses happy, despite those bad beginnings.
I do not doubt you love them both. That is not in question. It is HOW you show that love and express it that is less than ideal. Straighten how you express your love up. It's kinda messy there.

I perceive you are hurting, and that this is all Very Hard to Hear. I get that. I am very sorry you hurt. But if you come for honesty and get honesty and are uncomfortable hearing honesty? Best to just own that you are uncomfortable Hearing radical honesty then. (And maybe wonder -- how come people Speaking Their Truth worries you so? Can't you do it too?)

I really do wish you all well. I'm not judging you. I do know what I say may be Very Hard to Hear and you may not be used to that kind of frankness.

It is normal to hesitate over making Big Life Decisions. But don't use that as excuse to lollygag either. Not all choices in life are win or lose. When the choice is "This stinks and this stinks?" The thing to do is pick which one stinks least.

I think in this unfortunate situation, the least stinky choice is to make a decision to be radically honest with yourself and your people.

Understand that even YOU are going through the stages of grief. In your posts I already see the shock/denial stage playing out a bit. We are getting hints at the anger/bargain place too.

I don't really care about HOW you arrived here. Frankly -- I don't know you from adam so how could I claim to care? I'm a stranger!

But I do feel sorry for ALL of you in this sad situation and I feel sorry enough for you all to bother to reply.

So if the goal is to move it forward? Own that you will experience all kinds of things. Including the stages of grief.

Winston Churchill -- "If you are going through hell, keep going!"

Keep it moving forward. Don't set up camp here to LIVE in Limbo hell. Decide and move so you keep hope alive of getting yourself OUT of this mess, and move it closer to happy again. Maybe even chase your dream.

Quote:
To be clear, you don't help me by saying I had an unethical behavior. I know that, my only issue is what to do next.
Ok. You ask for some kind of map. This is what you want for support. Some ideas or method out of the mess for what to do next.

I describe one possible route, guided by my own ethical code.
  • You can take it as is.
  • You can use it like a template to help you shape it to fit your needs against your own ethical code and thus adapt it to serve you in your own way.
  • Or leave it be because it won't work for your needs after contemplating it. And your needs may include wanting an easier out.
  • Or refuse to consider it, because you aren't ready to own it, or do any work on it yet. That's fine. Just say so: "This is hard! I am not ready to go there yet."
That's about it, dude. I have shared what I can. I can do no further in that area. I'm not a pro counselor.

Stop getting defensive about experiencing the stages of grief. Stop running. Own it. You will feel bad. None of this will feel GREAT! But it will feel less bad and less stinky than the other way. That's more stinky -- to keep stonewalling.

You could just say "I am feeling denial. I am in stage of grief 1." Nobody here would bat an eye. Because you owned it. You are human, and dealing with being a human suffering from the human condition. There.

Quote:
I'm truly loving two people. So does Chris. This is polyamory. I just wonder if there is a balanced situation which could make us and our spouses happy, despite those bad beginnings.
I am not going to argue that you seek some kind of polyamorous arrangement. You do seem to want that.

What will make all the spouses happy? Well, you have to talk to all the spouses and take the soundings to see what they actually want and need to feel happy. Not guess at it. But ask so you can KNOW.

I don't know how else to be here other than straight up, Charles. You may not be ready to be straight up. No skin off my nose. I'm some internet stranger. But think of how that affects you and your loved ones. Lack of straight up honesty and frankness.

If you want to take a more passive role and let things unfold as they may as other people make their choices? So YOU don't have to take any responsibility for leadership? That's one way to go. From this community? Sit back and sit tight then, and ask for support/company in your long process. From your polypeeps? Do them the courtesy of clear communication and honestly announce to them "I want to be passive and sit back and let you all sort it out so I don't have to take responsibility for leadership."

If you want to take a more active role and pursue your happiness, and lead the foray to the next chapter in this story? That's another way to go. From this community? Sit back and sit tight then, and ask for support/company in your long process.From your polypeeps? Do them the courtesy of clear communications and honestly announce to them "This is what I want. Here's a possible plan to get there. Any takers on this mission? Who is with me? Got input of your own for the plan? Bring it on!" Decide you want to chase your dream and choose to lead the way.

Really it is on you to decide -- you want a passive role here in your destiny? Or an active role? Then just get on with that. Make up your mind and do what needs doing in a radically honest way.

I'm hoping you decide to chase that Poly V dream and do the work that needs doing.

So ask them, then tell them you want an answer in 30 days so all of you can move on to the next step. Whatever that is to be. Take 60 days if you need. But put a time limit. Who is in for the poly V dream? Who is out?

You all cannot spend your whole lives in this limbo. So a decision must be made, and if NOBODY can agree and decide, that speaks for itself. It's not gonna be a runner no matter what. Time to honestly digest that then.

best wishes,

GG

Last edited by GalaGirl; 08-20-2012 at 07:55 PM.
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  #19  
Old 08-20-2012, 05:37 PM
snowmelt snowmelt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlesgarnier View Post
It's strange to see so many people so full of certitudes. Cheating is very wrong, nobody ethical would do that in any citconstances, if my husband cheat once, I divorce at once and destroy everything without a second of hesitation. I bless Anna being more intelligent than that.

I'm truly loving two people. So does Chris. This is polyamory. I just wonder if there is a balanced situation which could make us and our spouses happy, despite those bad beginnings.
I now see what's going on. Charles, I ask you to read every word I type, because it is all meant to try to help you. I am being sincere with every keyboard character I type.


You have an arrogant, self righteous attitude. I'll call this your asa for short. You fell in love. Your asa told you it was ok to cheat. You stepped into a new relationship with Chris. You became happier than you're used to being. Your problem now is you want everyone around you who is outside of that new relationship to be happy for you as well. You think their happiness for you will help you to be even happier with Chris - and will totally eliminate any feeling you have of doing something wrong. The problem is they are not happier, or even happy. They just tolerate your new relationship. That makes it a little harder for you to enjoy yourself with Chris.


Anyone outside of your new relationship who does not passionately approve of it, including the people on this forum who are trying to help you, have a "certitude", because they are not passionately happy for your new found love (after all, it is love, right(?) you ask the people on this forum).


The truth is you have reached the outer limit of what your asa can do "for you". It seemed like a convenient tool in the beginning. It let you start an affair. Now, it's standing directly in the way of you feeling any better about YOURSELF than you do right now. The best next step I can suggest is to look directly within yourself and look at your asa. Get to know it, so you can get beyond it.

Last edited by snowmelt; 08-20-2012 at 05:49 PM.
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  #20  
Old 08-20-2012, 06:19 PM
WhatHappened WhatHappened is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlesgarnier View Post
if my husband cheat once, I divorce at once and destroy everything without a second of hesitation. I bless Anna being more intelligent than that.
You bless her how...by continuing a relationship that is hurting her?

I hope you will re-read some previous posts about what cheating does to someone inside and about the difficulties of divorcing, especially for women who often do not have a full-time income. Believe me, nobody does it 'without a second hesitation,' and your insinuation that those who divorce over cheating are less intelligent is highly offensive.
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