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  #101  
Old 05-24-2010, 05:59 PM
2rings 2rings is offline
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Believe me, I have asked myself if it was worth it many times. But despite countless setbacks and frequent misery, the good times are good enough to make me willing to try hard to make this work. I agree with Ari's observation that KT and MG seem to be getting along better and have become more willing to address a problem before it blows up than they have in the past. I just wish that the problems weren't coming up so damn often!
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  #102  
Old 05-25-2010, 12:37 AM
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KatTails KatTails is offline
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Originally Posted by Morningglory629 View Post
Awwww I am sorry you feel that way. I thought your weekend was going well. Lots of family and couple stuff between you and 2R. Posting= not so secret! But it is still kinda cute that you think that it is. You know I read everything you write silly! If you want me to let you work on your feelings on your own that's ok but if you need to talk to me or I need to be aware of some behavior of mine that is bothering you then do not hesitate to call.
This weekend did not turn out the way I had hoped. Between our daughter and I being sick, having to cancel sons party, etc - it just wasn't the weekend that we were looking forward to. Kind of a let down.

As for my feelings being secret - they were at the time, but I knew that eventually you both would read this post. I was hoping that I had things worked out better - but there is nothing I can do now. I read all of your posts too - I think its a great way for us to keep up with each other.

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Originally Posted by Morningglory629 View Post
However, though it was a bit rough at the onset it ended up being an ok ending to our issues. His confidence gets a bit shaken but I think that is more growing pains than real distrust of where we are going.
I think that this is where my feelings came from. When you two were fighting - I felt horrible. I was worried about you two and as you know - I tried to intervene. I do know that it is best for you two to work things out on your own. When I read the things you posted - I was genuinly worried about you and feeling sad for you. I was also sad to see him angry and hurting. I took on the emotions that you were both feeling. This was probably the first time I have truly done that. Then to make things worse, I am home sick, and you two are out together, fighting, talking, working things out and probably having sex. However, I wasn't a part of the makeup process. I didn't have a way to get rid of the emotions that I was carrying and was miserably sick to boot. Because I was sick - him and I were not being physically loving with each other for a few days. I started to feel distant from him and I started having, and still have, doubts and insecurities. There are some other things - but they are things that you and I need to talk about in person - not on here. We'll talk soon!

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Originally Posted by Morningglory629 View Post
. . . . I am very fond of you and actually feeling pretty good about our friendship. I hope this helps. If not, and there is something else please call me.
I feel the same! Thanks!

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Originally Posted by 2rings View Post
From my perspective, it's just the same old shit. The frustrating cycle of a big fight with MG, followed by a brief moment of understanding and harmony for all, followed by KT backsliding into misery. I try to remain positive, but it's hard to do that when you know that the next bit of drama is just around the bend.
I am not "backsliding into misery" - I am having a few feelings of doubt and insecurity - that's all. I am not flipping out, we are not fighting - there are issues, feelings, concerns - - - nothing that can't be talked about and worked out. Some of which we did last night and today. Would you rather I just bottle up my feelings or talk to you or MG about them?

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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
This is all worth it? I hate to be an asshole, but what you just wrote sounds like an example of co-dependency to me. Lots of painful drama followed by the "brief" high of "understanding and harmony"... kind of like banging one's head against the wall in order to remind oneself of how good it feels when you stop.
YGirl - you are not being an asshole - you are right in one aspect and wrong in another. Is there co-dependency on my part towards my husband? Yes! He has been my best friend, my lover, my everything - for 19+ years - and I, his. All of a sudden he has another person in his life that he is intimate with, that he is sharing his feelings with. I was always the person he came to - now he has her. How should this not hurt me? I am now having to learn to be my own person, have my own interests, have an identity that doesn't involve him . . . not so easy after 19 years. I have said this before: he has me and he has MG, MG has 2rings and her husband, I have 2rings. I don't have another person that I trust the way I do him. So am I too dependent on him - yes - I am learning how to not be - but it's hard.

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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
And it also sounds like KT feels better about herself when 2R and MG fight because then she can "be there" for him. Then, when things are "better" between 2R and MG, KT becomes miserable again.
This is where you are wrong. Will I ALWAYS be there for my husband when he needs me? Absolutely, without question. The hardest thing I have had to do is hold my husband while he cried over breaking up with MG days after realizing they were in love. Did I do that for me? No! It was heartbreaking! But I would do it again - and NOT be happy about it. I did not look at their fight as an opportunity to "be there" for him for selfish reasons. My heart was hurting for both of them. In fact, I knew they were on the phone having a fight. On my way to a doctors appointment - I swung by our house simply to give him a quick hug of support. I also sent her a text showing her my support. There was no agenda of trying to look like the "good' one or to one up her. When I walked in the door - he barked at me to get out - so I turned without a word and walked out. Did it hurt? Very much. Did I understand? Yes, I did. If you read my response above to 2rings - I explained my feelings and why I have been feeling miserable. When I am not feeling close to my husband, I get angsty and jealous. It doesn't really matter if things are good or bad between him and MG - it's about how things are between him and I. Does that make sense? If not I will try to explain.

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Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post
How is the intensity though? It seems like the peaks and valleys are subsiding and meeting the middle a bit more. They also appear to be communicating better, at least online. Sometimes it s just a bunch of baby steps
Ari - you are right - the intensity isn't nearly as high as it has been in the past. MG and I ARE communicating a lot better - so things aren't being bottled up only to blow up later. I did not talk to her about my latest feelings because they were slight and I really thought I could get rid of them without talking to her.

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Originally Posted by 2rings View Post
Believe me, I have asked myself if it was worth it many times. But despite countless setbacks and frequent misery, the good times are good enough to make me willing to try hard to make this work. I agree with Ari's observation that KT and MG seem to be getting along better and have become more willing to address a problem before it blows up than they have in the past. I just wish that the problems weren't coming up so damn often!
Me neither - but as you have told me again and again - your relationship with MG is fluid - it is always changing. This fluidity is causing me to have to constantly re-evaluate what I feel and know. You and MG are taking this to the next step. You and MG are talking about a future. You and MG are making new experiences and memories with each other. Each of these things cause me to feel doubts and insecurities. I have to learn how to accept each step that you two take. It is not as easy as you think it is. As long as your relationship is changing and growing - my feelings are going to be tested. It's to be expected. But I hope that you at least see that things aren't nearly as bad as they were even 3 months ago. I have not hade a meltdown in 2 months. Have I been hurt? Have I cried? Yes - but as Ari said, the intensity isn't nearly as severe as it has been. I have felt more concern for MG and more compersion towards you than ever before. THAT is what you need to focus on! You two are going to have your issues and fights. You and I are going to have our issues and fights. Her and I are going to have our issues and fights. But as long as you see that they are not as severe as in the past and that they are being resolved in a different way - then you should see that things will be fine - for all of us. I love you!

Last edited by NeonKaos; 05-25-2010 at 12:21 PM. Reason: quote formatting
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  #103  
Old 05-25-2010, 05:14 AM
ak2381 ak2381 is offline
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Originally Posted by 2rings View Post
Thanks for your concern. From my perspective, it's just the same old shit. The frustrating cycle of a big fight with MG, followed by a brief moment of understanding and harmony for all, followed by KT backsliding into misery. I try to remain positive, but it's hard to do that when you know that the next bit of drama is just around the bend.
For me this sounds alot like it was for awhile with J, DH and myself. They would have troubles, I would get miserable. We would eventually all feel better and DH would just wait for another one of my downward spirals. Not really another fight between him and J but more another one of my hitting the bottom rounds. And they would always come. And he would brace for them. He and I would fight. And then we would make up and then he and J would fight. And it was a never ending cycle. But as time went, before their break up of course, things seem to go smoother. And if they hadn't had to break up I think things would be going even better now. It just takes time and some getting use to.
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  #104  
Old 05-25-2010, 06:04 AM
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Morningglory629 Morningglory629 is offline
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Originally Posted by ak2381 View Post
For me this sounds alot like it was for awhile with J, DH and myself. They would have troubles, I would get miserable. We would eventually all feel better and DH would just wait for another one of my downward spirals. Not really another fight between him and J but more another one of my hitting the bottom rounds. And they would always come. And he would brace for them. He and I would fight. And then we would make up and then he and J would fight. And it was a never ending cycle. But as time went, before their break up of course, things seem to go smoother. And if they hadn't had to break up I think things would be going even better now. It just takes time and some getting use to.
The only way to break that cycle is to stop going into things thinking negatively or preparing for negative outcomes; and it is counterproductive to think that disagreements have to be hard fought battles. Sometimes we just need to agree to disagree. Someone on here said: some battles aren't worth having and do not really matter to the relationship so let it go. (I think LR) So, we don't ALWAYS have to be in complete agreement with one person's perspective nor should there be only one valid outlook on an issue. I think in our situation we have two Alpha dogs who usually handle issues in very similar manners. However, when there is a disagreement we feel the need to argue our points, leverage our personal agenda and often in a caustic or aggressive manner. Then we have one person who is not an Alpha but is very passive-agressive and sensitive to Alpha methods of making his/her point. And another person who is completely not engaged and not really supportive of the relationship (another passive-aggressive mannerism). This makes for all the little annoyances that compound the bigger disagreements whether they be between me and KT, KT and 2R, me and 2R, or me and P.

So, the cycle of drama can only stop if we do one of two things 1) realize we are all individuals with our own opinions and methodologies of processing, and try not to insist on being Stepford in our dynamic or 2) decide that only one Alpha can exist and the other has to either leave the pack or become submissive to Alpha. That in a nutshell is the source of most of our struggles.

Throw in random jealousy and insecurity (that all 4 of us feel at different times) and two menstrual cycles and you got the making of one Hell of a soap opera. I just wish I had a better wardrobe and a stylist on staff!

Last edited by Morningglory629; 05-25-2010 at 06:07 AM.
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  #105  
Old 05-25-2010, 12:23 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Originally Posted by KatTails View Post
It doesn't really matter if things are good or bad between him and MG - it's about how things are between him and I. Does that make sense? If not I will try to explain.
Yes it makes sense. You know your situation better than I do. I was just throwing out my two cents.

I just said "sense" and "cents".
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  #106  
Old 05-25-2010, 04:28 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Originally Posted by Morningglory629 View Post
So, the cycle of drama can only stop if we do one of two things 1) realize we are all individuals with our own opinions and methodologies of processing, and try not to insist on being Stepford in our dynamic or 2) decide that only one Alpha can exist and the other has to either leave the pack or become submissive to Alpha. That in a nutshell is the source of most of our struggles.

Throw in random jealousy and insecurity (that all 4 of us feel at different times) and two menstrual cycles and you got the making of one Hell of a soap opera. I just wish I had a better wardrobe and a stylist on staff!
Yep.

It REALLY is a choice.
The key is to choose the positive.

So many little things I've learned reading all these damn self-help books!

1.
Postive people and negative people both spend the SAME AMOUNT OF TIME focusing.

Positive people focus on the positive things-which causes MORE positive things to happen.

Negative people focus on the negative things-which causes MORE negative things to happen..

2.

If we assume that others have the best of INTENTIONS in their choices and actions-it's MUCH easier to forgive them when their actions cause us pain or fail to meet the hoped for objective.

3.

If we accept others for who they are, as they are RIGHT NOW-they are more likely to open up to us.
ONLY when someone is open to us are we able to help them become the best version of themselves that they can be.
ONLY when we are all trying to be the best version of ourselves can we be happy and joyful with who we are.

4.
When we try to control others-it will always fail. If you fell in love with a beautiful Eagle that was soaring across the sky-you won't be so in love with it if you lock it up, because it will no longer be a beautiful Eagle soaring across the sky, it will be a hobbling, lackluster bird in a cage.
Set your lover free to explore the world and choose to help them become a stronger, beautiful, graceful Eagle. They will appreciate your support and likely return the favor.

5.
Change=Growth,
Growth=Change..

Therefore-don't automatically assume the worst when there is a change.
Assume the best-that GROWTH is coming!

Also-don't automatically assume that growth will be EASY-it's going to require CHANGE from you, and from those around you, which is WORK!

I see you 3 write and I smile just a little bit.
When you first came on the board-the drama was palpable. Enough to make a person close the thread and walk away because we all have our own struggles and who has time to deal with someone else's drama-when it's self-perpetuating.
But in the short time you've all been posting, the changes are DRAMATIC.

2rings-I understand what you are saying about feeling like it's "just one more dramatic b.s. game". I feel that way when Maca freaks out sometimes.
But the truth is that breaking old habits takes time and work AND making NEW habits is HARD WORK-but it also requires knowing what habit it is that you are trying to make.

When KT first posted-she wasn't sure what habits she was trying to make, only that the ones she had needed to stop.
This was much like Maca's ex-wife who has stopped drinking and using, but now she's sitting around wondering "ok, so now what? What DO people do when they are clean and sober to enjoy life?"
Kt was saying, "Ok, I GET that what I had isn't going to be anymore, but what DO I get?"

Now she's busting her butt to start building a friendship with MG. That alone-without a shared lover can be a daunting task!
How many of us tried to be friends with someone in our life only to find out that the differences between us were such that it blew up in our faces?
How many of us have gotten in arguments, gotten feelings hurt or otherwise thought we couldn't be friends with someone we THOUGHT we could, and then realized that one or the other of us was just being unreasonable and patched things up again.
Building a true friendship takes TIME and many people can't do it when there ISN'T a shared lover, when there is-well, it's more work.

BUT-they ARE doing it. Seemingly-pretty smoothly too. That IS the first step really to YOUR happiness 2rings.

Because ONLY if they can find peace with one another are you ever going to have peace with them.
Some people CAN have lovers and not be friends, but not people with the personalities of YOUR two lovers. (no offense intended, I can't do it either!)

These ladies are going to have a lot more growth and change to traverse-SO ARE YOU. But it will be much easier if you all three find it in yourselves to hold yourselves accountable personally for always presuming that one another has the best of intentions.
Every one of you is going to do things that hurt the others at some point or another. That's part of life. But if you all KNOW that you all have the best of intentions, those hurts won't break down TRUST. In fact-when one of you gets hurt, you'll be thinking-wow that really blew up in their face. I know THAT wasn't what they were trying for and with your own hurt you will be feeling compassion for the person who hurt you and what they must be feeling having CAUSED you the pain!
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  #107  
Old 05-25-2010, 04:30 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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MG,
God I'm glad I'm dating two men!
Two menstrual cycles is hell!
I am SO happy to say that my 18 year old girl is leaving state for 3 months!!
It will be so nice to be relieved from THAT drama for a bit!

Even though my sister lives here-it's different with her and I. But even that, we avoid being involved in any decision making, planning, coordinating etc during that time.
It's just too stressful to try to get two women to agree at that time!!
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  #108  
Old 05-25-2010, 06:20 PM
2rings 2rings is offline
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Originally Posted by Morningglory629 View Post
The only way to break that cycle is to stop going into things thinking negatively or preparing for negative outcomes; and it is counterproductive to think that disagreements have to be hard fought battles. Sometimes we just need to agree to disagree, we don't ALWAYS have to be in complete agreement with one person's perspective nor should there be only one valid outlook on an issue.
The cycle of drama can only stop if we realize that only one Alpha can exist and the other has to either leave the pack or become submissive to Alpha. That in a nutshell is the source of most of our struggles.

MG's post, edited to reflect my view.

One thing that I am sure of is that I WILL be the alpha in our relationship. Before you say "What a jerk!'' let me explain.
MG, you and I both know that I have a natural and uncontrollable rejection of authority. I was O.D.D. before there was a name for it. For reasons that I can't pinpoint, I instinctively challenge authority, often against others' advice and my own better judgement. As soon as somone tries to assert control, I start to simmer.
You and I have been in what seems to be a power struggle, but really, the way I see it, it's just as much about trust. And that becomes a bigger problem when I begin to feel rejected because I feel you don't trust me enough give yourself to me. I think you get angry because you assume that I would try control you. I do understand it. Submission is a difficult position to adjust to when you're used to being ''in charge''.
You are a forceful (see how kind?) personality, and there is no doubt that you rule the roost in all of your other relationships.
But that's never going to work with me.
We will fight and make each other miserable until one of us decides to give up and walk away.
That is not what I want.
Here's my solution-

Submit, and you will have the power.

Now I know that sounds like some Yodaesque line of bullshit, but really, it's not. It boils down to this -
I will happily give you the power that I'd never let you take. I know myself. I have tried to change. But I know that my stubborn, defiant nature will not allow me to submit to you. And you seem feel a need to be in charge of those around you. It's a bad combination. But it doesn't have to ruin us. Submit to me, and I think you will find that I will happily turn things over to you.
KT gets it. In our relationship, I am dominant. But she is far from being a stepford wife. We work together well. When something comes up, it is almost always a joint decision on how to proceed, and more often than not, I defer to her wants/needs/opinion. Do I have what amounts to a "final say"? More or less. But it very rarely comes to that. Of course we squabble. Every couple does. But it generally works pretty well. I feel needed and trusted, and she knows that she is cared for and that her opinion is important.
Do you want that power?

Let the shit storm begin!

Last edited by ImaginaryIllusion; 05-26-2010 at 03:02 AM. Reason: Tags
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  #109  
Old 05-25-2010, 08:25 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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So, as long as your women "let" you think you're in charge, you'll "let" them do whatever they like. I hope that works out for all of you.

You might try acting like adults, instead of playing these juvenile games to camouflage your power struggles.
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  #110  
Old 05-25-2010, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
So, as long as your women "let" you think you're in charge, you'll "let" them do whatever they like. I hope that works out for all of you.

You might try acting like adults, instead of playing these juvenile games to camouflage your power struggles.
Yikes! YGirl you are a bit snippy aren't ya?! His women aren't "letting" him think he's in charge, at least not this one. Quite the contrary hence the drama. And KT is working on her co-dependency and has come a looooong way baby in a short time! And the fact that we are on here posting and getting feedback from others, going to counseling and talking to eachother ad nauseum about our differences, issues and power dynamics is far from juvenile. Juvenile would be taking my ball and going home when I don't get my way- you know leaving a relationship because it is just too hard. 2R is as he said used to making decisions and he is working on his compromise techniques. KT (a full-blown mono)is sharing her husband and building a friendship with me because she is facing her fears and starting to come out on the other side a more empowered woman. I, for the first time in a longtime, am opening up to two people in a most intimate and vulnerable way and that is something for me. So how about you give us a break and instead of saying things like "act like adults" you actually offer some constructive advice or at least encouragement. JEEZ!
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