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  #31  
Old 07-18-2012, 06:49 PM
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Rules are not unique to polyamory. The exact same instincts of control and ownership which are involved in monogamy are carried over into our polyamorous relationships. All of these requirements of when people have to meet, how much they are allowed to share before hand, how "close" they are allowed to become before taking certain steps, are simply methods of control. We are trying to control the actions of our partners and their partners through fear that, if we don't we will be harmed.

This is exactly the same mindset behind requiring exclusivity (sexual and emotional) in a monogamous relationship. The demands that we are making are simply altered to include more lovers. I say "we", but what I mean is the community, of which I am not certain I am comfortable calling myself a part of. These rules creep me out - it all just sounds like marriage. I'm trying to understand but the more explanations I hear the less I like it lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by km34 View Post
It's a health thing. I want to know whose cooties I'm being exposed to, because it doesn't matter how many precautions are taken, there is still risk in sharing a sexual partner with another person... If a woman isn't ready to deal with meeting me in person, so be it, but that means I'm not ready to deal with the reality of her health potentially affecting mine.
Thanks for your explanation km, I do have one followup question though.

How does meeting this person ease your concerns of contracting STDs from them? In meeting them do you find that you get a "vibe" that their genitals are free from complication? Do you examine them on the dinner table?

Personally I'd be satisfied by seeing their test results (if only in email, as someone else suggested).
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  #32  
Old 07-18-2012, 07:10 PM
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I just feel that if the health issue is resolved, and Noone is looking to steal anyone away, does it really matter if you meet before or after sex? That was my question.....
Katie-
for the sake of looking at it from the other shoe, assuming its done your way-

how do you know the health issue is resolved?
How do YOU know you can trust this person?
How does the woman (who hasn't met you at all) know that you aren't planning to try to steal someone away?


(NO SARCASM AT ALL)

I ask these questions because I've actually been on both sides of the coin, well all three. I've been the extra person wanting to date someone who was part of a couple, I've been the partner with someone wanting to date me and I've been the wife at home whose partner had someone wanting to date them.

In every case, it's been clear that the best way to know for sure that all parties needs are being addressed, is for all parties to meet.

I've done it without meeting-and always someones needs failed to be met and ALMOST EVERY TIME-it was the person in your shoes who got screwed over the worst. Because, they had the most to lose.

It's not for my personal benefit that I insist on meeting. It's for EVERYONE's benefit.

It's impossible to know that the wife is going to respect your needs, and your importance if you haven't met her. Even if her husband says he will ensure it-there are enough nightmare stories on here to show that isn't POSSIBLE.

The only way to be sure that every persons voice is considreed and they all get a chance to express their needs/desires for their relationship, is for all who have power over it to meet.

The truth is-that because I am the mother of his children, if you were dating my husband I have power over that relationship. Not that I WANT to control it-but if I call him and say "our kids in the ambulance"-he's leaving your date-even if you are butt naked and mid stroke.
HE knows I would never call unless it were that serious-but you don't know that unless we've met and talked.
As the stay at home mom-I have the power to schedule every doctor appointment, dental appointment, after school activity etc for the kids-and him. If I wanted to be a bitch, I can schedule them in such a way that you never get to see him. Again, not that I would (never have) but YOU wouldn't know that if you haven't met me.

Unless you meet me, you can't ensure that I don't get to hear all of the details of every personal thing you tell him. He might say that's the case-but you can't have any real sense of confidence in that-if you haven't met us. Because you have no clue what kind of control I may weild over him.

Many a person goes away from their "jailer" and acts as though they are dominant of their life and can do what they wish-only to return to an abusive relationship where their partner controls everything.

It would be great if this weren't so-but it is so and it is so in the poly community as it is everywhere else.

Every woman whose met my husband has fallen for his gentlemanly ways and his sex appeal. It takes a long time for him to REALLY open up-but they want to jump in bed within a month or so usually. They THINK they know him. But, they don't know him at all. They don't realize that if his daughter calls his cell-he's going to ignore them for as long as she wants to talk. (because I try not to let her do it-but if she's with someone else while hes on a date-she will). They don't know that she's possessive and pissy and he caters to her whim-so if she throws a fit over him not being home-cause he was out with them, he won't go next time.
They dont know that he has a double standard in terms of what he is ok with and what he's not.

The bottomline is-they don't rEALLY know him. I've known him 24 years and only in the last 2 have I gotten to know the REAL Maca. We've been living together for 14.

A woman who says, "hey I think i"m intersted in dating your husband, can we talk" is the smartest woman on earth. Cause she just opened the door to really knowing who he is, what she can do to minimize the chances of getting her heart broken and maximize her relationship with him.

I'm a friendly-non-possessive spouse. But, she will NEVER get privileges she isn't willing to stand up and request-and HE WON'T ask for them because he doesn't want to give them to my boyfriend.

SO-if she waits for him to ask, she'll wait till hell freezes over, cause he doesn't want me to have overnights with my boyfriend. He doesn't want us going out on a date more than once a week. He doesn't want us showing affection in front of him.
So-he can't do those thing with her.
BUT
if SHE asks me-she will find out that I'm TOTALLY OK with those things because I understand the importance of having their own relationship and freedom to build it etc.

So, while it's perfectly ok to say you aren't going to meet someone else. It might also mean minimizing your own personal benefits.

Shrug-makes no difference to me in the long run.
But, it can make a huge difference to the lover.
As seen by the difference in how things went for E versus B.
E met me, talked to me, asked me things that could help her be a better lover for him-and I shared freely and they had a great 2.5 year run before she moved away.
B didn't-she wanted to believe she could learn it all on her own which resulted in her being heartbroken and devastated within a few weeks of their first face to face meeting. Ironically over something that could have EASILY been avoided.
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  #33  
Old 07-18-2012, 07:14 PM
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Sparklepop-I think your answer rocked.
Feel free to visit me anytime! LOL!
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  #34  
Old 07-18-2012, 07:20 PM
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Marcus-

I think part of the issue you hit the nail on the head.
In some cases of poly-you ARE dealing with marriage.

FOr me-it's not the sharing of my spouse sexually or otherwise that is an issue. It's the responsibilities of our family-which I've seen others misinterpret and be hurt by that are an issue.

If someone is ok with being nothing more than a casual sex partner (opposed to a casual partner as described by nycindie), they don't have to meet me.
But, they do have to understand that their date time is far and few between and that it could be cancelled or interrupted without notice.
NOT BY ME per se (not my habit)-by obligation to kids, finances etc.

But, if they want the freedom to see one of us regularly without the concern of sudden cancellations, they gotta meet the family and they gotta be a good fit with the family socially (not meaning good fit to JOIN the family necessarily, just comfortable socializing with the kids and the rest of us) cause things DO come up when you enmesh the lives of 3 adults with 4-5 kids and a grandson.

As for the STD's-i'm ok with a copy of the doctors note-in terms of MY safety. But, personally, I'd like to tell them myself (via email or text is fine) the risks they have FROM me.
How do THEY know that they are safe just because they get a letter saying my husband is clean? He could catch herpes from me at any time.
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  #35  
Old 07-18-2012, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
But, they do have to understand that their date time is far and few between and that it could be cancelled or interrupted without notice.
NOT BY ME per se (not my habit)-by obligation to kids, finances etc.
Life is full of responsibilities, things which we need to take care of, and unfortunately sometimes these things just pop up. Adults understand this, when our plans have to get canned we are disappointed and then move on with what we have to do. Granted, if one is so inclined one can take care to respect the time of others and only interfere with their plans in the case of an emergency or events which are inflexible (beyond our control).

I'm curious to know how dates with someone who doesn't care to meet you runs an apparently serious risk of being infrequent and interrupted but someone who HAS met you is miraculously safer from such dangers. Did I read that right? What happens to the ability to schedule around a date with someone who has met you over someone who hasn't?
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  #36  
Old 07-18-2012, 08:09 PM
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Because if they've met us-they could re-schedule the date to include the kids. (the most common issue is the kids-cause we adults are all on opposite schedules).

However, after the drama that has ensued with several potentials and the kids-we all agreed that its best for the kids not to be subjected to potentials before all 3 parents have a chance to meet them and assess the viability and safety of the kids.

The only other real risk is medical issues-I have several (not std related) serious medical issues. Had 4 serious surgeries in 2010, 2 of which resulted in me being on bed rest for 8 weeks-with small children at home. Complete bed rest-which took me out of the picture regarding childcare, completely.

These issues are USUALLY not an issue. But, when they flare up-it's emergency visits and usually several weeks of full-time care needed round the clock. GG and Maca take turns-but it kills their free time elsewhere.

In the case of 2010, which was definitely the worst year; Maca's gf knew me, knew the situation and was able to reconfigure things so she could come meet up with him or stop by his work-but their romantic options were nil. But, she knew and understood the whole situation-so she knew it wasn't me being a bitch or him being neglectful.

However, MY MEDICAL ISSUES ARE NOT HIS PLACE TO DISCUSS with another party. Period. He can tell them he's unavailable there's been a medical emergency-but more than that would be overstepping the bounds of my privacy rights.

So, had she chosen to have no contact with me-she would have been left wondering wtf-for MONTHS.

Which is part of what happened this winter. In February, a month after the new girl hit the scene in person, I had a severe medical situation which resulted in round the clock care til mid-march.
She assumed it was just me being a bitch and making shit up so that Maca couldn't meet with her. All hell broke loose between them.

IF SHE KNEW ME-she'd know A) I'm not that kind of person & B) what the hell was going on with me, cause I could have called her my own self to tell her (like I did with the other lady-who actually visited me in the hospital).
But, because she choose to keep our lives segregated, she was left wondering.

It would be nice if adults all understood that things come up-but my experience is that isn't the case and in fact OFTEN "secondaries" (i loathe the term and purpose of the term) get screwed over BECAUSE they don't have anything to do with the rest of the group and so they get left out when a crisis erupts.

In a perfect situation, there would be no major, reoccurring health issues to interrupt and kids wouldn't be an issue either.
But, in reality, these things come up frequently.

The relationships that have lasted, in our life, are the ones who have integrated into the group of close friends and family. Because if I have a crisis-they want to be here helping too. If The kids need help, they want to be here too. So instead of being left out, they are involved and it actually helps cement their bond to whoever their lover is AND everyone else.

The ones who want total autonomy and segregation, end up feeling left out and left behind because they aren't part of the day to day happenings.

As I said, it was VERY different for me when I was an autonomous single gal who had multiple lovers and didn't live with any of them.

Then, it was much easier to keep the segregation and still have lots of time with lovers.

But, when you include kids and a full household of adults who are not autonomous renters, but all owners and all parents to the kids and all mutually responsible, there's more impact on metamours and it works better if they all get along well.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:10 PM
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(fyi-it's not "meeting me" so much as meeting US in our case).
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
However, MY MEDICAL ISSUES ARE NOT HIS PLACE TO DISCUSS with another party. Period. He can tell them he's unavailable there's been a medical emergency-but more than that would be overstepping the bounds of my privacy rights.
So I am clear, if your husband has been dating a girl for a period of time, seems quite smitten with her, but she has (to date) not taken your family up on the offer of a meeting, he can't tell her you are ill if you become ill?

I understand being embarrassed about airing out your medical dirty laundry to the public. Would something like "My wife is quite ill and I need to see to her. I can't tell you how long it might be, but the last time this came up it was a month or so before she didn't require constant care. I will see you as frequently as I can but please understand that her health is currently my only priority" be too much?

Does the fact that he loves and trusts this (currently imaginary) girl entitle him to be somewhat honest with her?
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  #39  
Old 07-18-2012, 10:09 PM
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So I am clear, if your husband has been dating a girl for a period of time, seems quite smitten with her, but she has (to date) not taken your family up on the offer of a meeting, he can't tell her you are ill if you become ill?

I understand being embarrassed about airing out your medical dirty laundry to the public. Would something like "My wife is quite ill and I need to see to her. I can't tell you how long it might be, but the last time this came up it was a month or so before she didn't require constant care. I will see you as frequently as I can but please understand that her health is currently my only priority" be too much?

Does the fact that he loves and trusts this (currently imaginary) girl entitle him to be somewhat honest with her?
Oh no no no no. It's not that he can't tell her there is a medical emergency or that it may be some time. Not at all.
It's more that he can't get into details of it with someone who is a stranger to me.
Along the lines of, if he wouldn't say it to his boss, he shouldn't say it to anyone else.

As for his trust of someone, honestly, no that doesn't make them trustworthy to me.
BECAUSE I happen to know that when he's thinking with his dick-he would trust them regardless of their actual trustworthiness.
I say I KNOW that-not only because I've witnessed it repeatedly (as noted in multiple old threads on here where he and I both posted) but also because he fully admits that he has a HUGE problem with NRE.

Just last night he was telling me he's really sorry and he really doesn't think he wants to try to date anymore because he simply can't manage his NRE. It takes over him.

So, no, their dating doesn't give me confidence in the viability of the relationship or my interest in them knowing my medical issues. (not including of course any STD's-those aren't optional in my mind-you MUST share that info).
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:15 PM
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mmmm, I should add,

"love this person" would be precisely one of those things I don't believe just cause they've been sexual for a couple months.

He's sexually enthralled. But love... well frankly, it comes slow to him. He would not admit to loving very many people in his life at all.
His kids, myself, his dad. He doesn't say it about his siblings or his mother.
He has admitted to "thinking he might" love one of the 4 women who've filtered through in the last 3 years.

He says "i feel a connection". But, if you ask him to describe-it's all about sexual chemistry.

He doesn't open up about himself personally to people. It takes YEARS for him to do that. Even to a level that most people commonly open up with coworkers.
He's very introverted in that sense and keeps his real self very private.

He's a flirt and he's attractive in a very... "everyone even the guys think he is" sort of way. He knows all the right words and he'll listen. So women enjoy his company, cause he will let them talk to their hearts content.
But, they can't tell you shit about HIM. They think they can-they will tell you that he's SO MUCH like they are, that he "gets" them, that they have the same ideas for a future, relationship styles etc. But, it's all a lie. What he does is agree with whatever they are saying as being ok-because, it is ok as long as its THEM and THEIR life. But, unless they directly ask him what he wants for his life (which I guess is VERY RARE), he won't offer it-and even then, he will usually shrug it off and change the topic back to them.

So, love... no. I don't believe he has loved any of these women. He has specifcially told me he can't identify if its possible to love them unless he has sex with them (which makes NO sense to me, I KNOW I love lots of people I haven't screwed) and his descriptions of what he likes about them have nothing to do with love.
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