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  #31  
Old 07-02-2012, 05:01 AM
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ksandra ksandra is offline
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Originally Posted by feelyunicorn View Post
Presumably, you want to if you say, Yes? Here`s something else I seem to be picking up on, you tell me if I`m wrong. It really lays bare how much of a disagreement I have with anything even remotely resembling Cinderella.

I think that asking for consent forces women to make a decision about sex, and that leaves them feeling like 'sluts' IF they are not sex-positive. I think this also addresses a couple of Ton`s posts. This is why I love asking for consent, and why most women hate the idea (vs. the reality of it).

I fear that a lot of the emphasis on 'spontaneity' and 'naturalness', etc. has to do with that fact: ladies are not supposed to actively pursue sex. They are supposed to be taken, 'swept off their feet', or whatever metaphor there is for passive-aggressive behavior.
Maybe part of the turn off is that it suddenly puts pressure on the situation? It forces people to make a decision and commit versus playing things by ear. This is not entail either party sitting around and waiting to be romanced into anything. I'm talking about two people who are both interested in each other exploring their feelings and seeing what happens instead of having to make a decision about what will happen.

For me seduction, for lack of a better word, is a 50/50 split (I think someone else has mentioned this) if both parties aren't taking an active role then it isn't a seduction. Ideally things move ahead because you are both in tune with each other and yes, at some point I agree that consent should be verbally brought up

feelyunicorn in reading over a lot of your posts it feels like you're more interested in convincing us that you are correct instead of an open dialogue for thoughts and ideas regarding this issue. Please don't take offence to this but are you actually interested in hearing alternate viewpoints?

Last edited by ksandra; 07-02-2012 at 05:10 AM.
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  #32  
Old 07-02-2012, 05:26 AM
ThatGirlInGray ThatGirlInGray is offline
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I think the times asking is a turn-off or seen as unromantic are those times when it appears to be a shortcut, used instead of paying close attention to the person you're with and thinking about them.

Romance does not have to be gender specific. It's about putting thought and effort into something to please someone you care about. Sometimes, yes, asking needs to happen, because you're just not interpreting cues well (maybe you haven't been together long enough for that, or maybe there aren't many cues this time, or whatever) but if asking becomes a replacement for doing the work of paying attention and putting thought and effort in, that's not going to go over well, with good reason.

Kinda reminds me of people who propose and get turned down- I wonder what led them to think proposing was a good idea in the first place. It also reminds me of the saying, "If you have to ask how much it is, you can't afford it." Basically, asking for clarity and confirmation is usually okay, but if you're asking and have no idea of the answer you'll get, then it probably hasn't been long enough. Take some more time to be a little more confident in the place/position you're currently in before trying to move forward.
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  #33  
Old 07-02-2012, 05:39 AM
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NovemberRain NovemberRain is offline
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I think the times asking is a turn-off or seen as unromantic are those times when it appears to be a shortcut, used instead of paying close attention to the person you're with and thinking about them.

Romance does not have to be gender specific. It's about putting thought and effort into something to please someone you care about. Sometimes, yes, asking needs to happen, because you're just not interpreting cues well (maybe you haven't been together long enough for that, or maybe there aren't many cues this time, or whatever) but if asking becomes a replacement for doing the work of paying attention and putting thought and effort in, that's not going to go over well, with good reason.

Kinda reminds me of people who propose and get turned down- I wonder what led them to think proposing was a good idea in the first place. It also reminds me of the saying, "If you have to ask how much it is, you can't afford it." Basically, asking for clarity and confirmation is usually okay, but if you're asking and have no idea of the answer you'll get, then it probably hasn't been long enough. Take some more time to be a little more confident in the place/position you're currently in before trying to move forward.
THIS! (I was gonna snip but the whole thing is exactly how I feel about it)
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  #34  
Old 07-02-2012, 05:39 AM
feelyunicorn feelyunicorn is offline
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Originally Posted by ksandra View Post
Please don't take offence to this but are you actually interested in hearing alternate viewpoints?
I`ve already moved on, as you can see from my last post. I think I`ve said everything I wanted to say in regard to the original topic.

I was just dismayed, since this is only my second thread here: one, by the near-unanimity against; and secondly, by the heavy dose of "female perspective" (with the exception of one post), for lack of a better term. Which, to be honest, was quite creepy with Annabel`s glaring exception.

I truly did not expect to be thrown to the lions in the way I was. Not here. I thought the idea would get a better response among polys than elsewhere (especially since I got it from another poly forum; and, a female poster at that). But, precisely the opposite happened.

In my blissful ignorance, I even thought asking for consent was a majority opinion if not one of the tenets of polyamory. Right along with communicate, communicate, communicate.

Live and learn.

------------

I should also point out that the original idea of this thread went beyond dating and seduction. For instance, earlier tonight I asked a platonic female friend if she could initiate more of our chats on Facebook. I`ve known her since we were kids, we talk about very personal things, and we both feel like we are the only ones we can talk to about certain topics...it`s clear we have some kind of connection, so why do I feel like I always initiate our conversations?

She responds to my "hi" enthusiastically, and we talk for hours. So obviously, she enjoys them. So, why not say "Hi" now and then, rather than wait for me to do so?

Stuff like that. That`s also asking for what you want. Doesn`t have to be a kiss or sex.

But, if you guys manage multiple relationships without it more power to you.
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Last edited by feelyunicorn; 07-02-2012 at 06:10 AM.
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  #35  
Old 07-02-2012, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by feelyunicorn View Post
Do you ask directly for what you want? Why do you think asking for consent has been labeled unromantic? Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by feelyunicorn View Post
I`ve already moved on, as you can see from my last post. I think I`ve said everything I wanted to say in regard to the original topic.

I was just a little dismayed, since this is only my second thread here: one, by the near-unanimity against; and secondly, by the heavy dose of "female perspective" (with the exception of one post), for lack of a better term.

I truly did not expect to be thrown to the lions in the way I was. Not here. I thought the idea would get a better response among polys than elsewhere (especially since I got it from another poly forum; and, a female poster at that). But, precisely the opposite happened.
Dood, you asked if we ask for what we want, and then you asked if we thought it was unromantic and why. I saw a bunch of posts answering that. How exactly did you get 'thrown to the lions?'

Or did you not really want to know what people here think, you just wanted people to agree with you?
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  #36  
Old 07-02-2012, 06:04 AM
feelyunicorn feelyunicorn is offline
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Originally Posted by NovemberRain View Post
Dood, you asked if we ask for what we want, and then you asked if we thought it was unromantic and why. I saw a bunch of posts answering that. How exactly did you get 'thrown to the lions?'

Or did you not really want to know what people here think, you just wanted people to agree with you?
The answer to your question (which, is the same as ksandra`s) is in my previous post. Maybe we should just acknowledge and accept miscommunication lest we should look like a bickering married couple.
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Last edited by feelyunicorn; 07-02-2012 at 06:08 AM.
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  #37  
Old 07-02-2012, 07:35 AM
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I do not accept 'miscommunication.' I am not inclined to throw people to the lions, and I would like to know how that happened to you, so I can avoid it. I'm not seeing it, and I seek to understand.
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Love is that condition in which the happiness of another person is essential to your own...
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and no longer with CurrentBoyFriend (CBF)(who lives in the apartment building next door)
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  #38  
Old 07-02-2012, 02:11 PM
feelyunicorn feelyunicorn is offline
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I do not accept 'miscommunication.' I am not inclined to throw people to the lions, and I would like to know how that happened to you, so I can avoid it. I'm not seeing it, and I seek to understand.
I appreciate your concern, and you sound sincere. But, when do you call it quits?

I have a friend who`s a devout Catholic and an advanced student of theology. He toys with the idea of going into the priesthood. We`ve known each other for 18 years, since high school. We`ve argued many times, until I felt that we started having circular arguments and that was damaging our friendship.

I eventually sat him down and said, "Look. We have a fundamental disagreement. I think we`ve discussed all facets of it in all possible contexts and guises. I think it`s time we avoid that subject. I`m pretty sure where you stand, and I think you feel the same about me.

It`s time for us to decide whether this disagreement is a deal-breaker for us, or if we can move beyond it. I`ll tell you what`s a deal-breaker for me, and that is, continuing this circular argument."

It turns out we had enough in common in other areas that we felt we should remain friends. Sometimes, I have to remind him that I don`t want to discuss religion with him (asking for consent). But, all in all, we`ve moved on pretty good.

------------
Have you ever been in a situation in which say something expecting positive feedback and, to your utter surprise, virtually everyone in the room vehemently disagrees with you? How did you feel?
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Last edited by feelyunicorn; 07-02-2012 at 02:14 PM.
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  #39  
Old 07-02-2012, 02:34 PM
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CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
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I am going to go back to the original post, and provide another male perspective, if that's ok.

I am not a fan of games in relationships. This strange requirement that one should have the ability to somehow mind-read what the other does and doesn't want is one that I fall woefully short on. I admire those that have the telepathic ability that I don't, so I have to work without it.

As such, I much prefer a direct approach - if you want something, and don't mention it in some rather obvious way, then don't be upset with me when I don't follow up on that wish. If you wish to drop some hints with decreasing subtlety first, that's fine too, but please be prepared to come out and say it if it's important to you.

On the other hand, if you are going to do this, please be prepared that I might refuse, and don't get offended. I think that it is this that holds most folks back from being so forthright.

I actually finds this direct approach a turn-ON, rather than a turn-OFF. I admire people who know what they want and aren't afraid to ask for it.

When it comes to me asking, I don't tend to phrase it in terms of "asking for consent". There's a difference between "Would it be ok with you if I kissed you?" and "I would really like to kiss you". You are stating a desire, then the other person can react to it.

Does that make sense?
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  #40  
Old 07-02-2012, 02:41 PM
feelyunicorn feelyunicorn is offline
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Originally Posted by CielDuMatin View Post
I am going to go back to the original post, and provide another male perspective, if that's ok.

When it comes to me asking, I don't tend to phrase it in terms of "asking for consent". There's a difference between "Would it be ok with you if I kissed you?" and "I would really like to kiss you". You are stating a desire, then the other person can react to it.

Does that make sense?
Of course it`s ok. It does to me.

I tend to do both, express my desire and ask for consent. I`ve been doing it ever since I read a book called "People Skills", in which the author recommends a two-part I-statement (sometimes, called feeling statements) and you-question to healthy communication.

At the time, I was negotiating a nasty break up with my ex and also weathering relationship problems with my parents. I think the two-part structure to communication was responsible for making me come out of both challenges, if not smelling like a rose , at least in the best way possible.

Everything else you`ve said is spot on with my own feelings on the matter.
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Last edited by feelyunicorn; 07-02-2012 at 02:46 PM.
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