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  #41  
Old 05-29-2012, 07:09 PM
ThatGirlInGray ThatGirlInGray is offline
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Sometimes they get, "oh, geez, that's tough, here what I think and what happened to me. Maybe it will help you sort it out" I find the latter to be far more helpful as it give the person their power back to make their own choices.
I completely agree. I don't have a problem with honesty or even bluntness. What I have a problem with, and what I think is difficult to get across without specific examples (though I take Annabel's point of discussing this in general terms) is when bluntness crosses a line to insulting. It may be I'm particularly sensitive to this because I personally work hard to curb my own bluntness and sarcasm. There is no tone in text so extra care should be taken to make sure that your words can be understood as intended regardless of tone. I find it interesting, though, and perhaps telling how many comments turned "being kind and compassionate" into coddling, "Aww, that's okay" and "everything will be alright". That isn't what I mean at all. Say what you feel needs to be said, absolutely, but there's a huge difference between, "I think you really need to take a look at your situation and the potential damage it could cause, because is this what I'm worried about:" and, "Oh my god, are you fucking kidding me?? You can't be serious. I feel sick just reading this." (Both of those "quotes" are made up by me, as examples. They are not actual quotes of anything.) The latter is about as helpful as coddling, which is not at all.

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So, I suggest, ignoring the harsh with understanding and empathy and embrace the positive, supportive kindness.
I will try. Perhaps instead of calling out specific posters in a thread I will notify the mods when I feel there's a post that's REALLY out of line.
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We make people work on their shit. that to me is how it should be.
True dat!
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  #42  
Old 05-29-2012, 07:52 PM
CherryBlossomGirl CherryBlossomGirl is offline
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I completely agree. I don't have a problem with honesty or even bluntness. What I have a problem with..... is when bluntness crosses a line to insulting.
This is exactly where I'm coming from as well.
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  #43  
Old 05-29-2012, 08:55 PM
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I will try. Perhaps instead of calling out specific posters in a thread I will notify the mods when I feel there's a post that's REALLY out of line.
I would really appreciate that. I have my own poly stuff going these days it could take a bit to sort and any direction to anything that looks out of the norm is always helpful. Thanks
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  #44  
Old 05-29-2012, 11:44 PM
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I completely agree. I don't have a problem with honesty or even bluntness. What I have a problem with, and what I think is difficult to get across without specific examples (though I take Annabel's point of discussing this in general terms) is when bluntness crosses a line to insulting.
That's subjective. I haven't seen every newb come here and then leave because they feel insulted; might apply to some, doesn't apply to all. It has happened, for sure, but I've also been witness to people being appreciative about a bare-bones approach, even with stinging words involved.

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Originally Posted by ThatGirlInGray View Post
It may be I'm particularly sensitive to this because I personally work hard to curb my own bluntness and sarcasm. There is no tone in text so extra care should be taken to make sure that your words can be understood as intended regardless of tone.
But curbing isn't always an option for other people. You may feel it's problematic so you're doing something about it. Outside of that others will view it differently. And there is tone in text. Books are full of tone in text. Posts on a forum on the Internet are no different. No matter how you word something there will always be one other person who misinterprets what you're trying to get across. Period. Online and offline.

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Originally Posted by ThatGirlInGray View Post
I find it interesting, though, and perhaps telling how many comments turned "being kind and compassionate" into coddling, "Aww, that's okay" and "everything will be alright". That isn't what I mean at all. Say what you feel needs to be said, absolutely, but there's a huge difference between, "I think you really need to take a look at your situation and the potential damage it could cause, because is this what I'm worried about:" and, "Oh my god, are you fucking kidding me?? You can't be serious. I feel sick just reading this." (Both of those "quotes" are made up by me, as examples. They are not actual quotes of anything.) The latter is about as helpful as coddling, which is not at all.
I won't debate the coddling thing, because I've seen it. Just like I've seen that last example.
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  #45  
Old 05-30-2012, 04:06 AM
ThatGirlInGray ThatGirlInGray is offline
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That's subjective. I haven't seen every newb come here and then leave because they feel insulted; might apply to some, doesn't apply to all. It has happened, for sure, but I've also been witness to people being appreciative about a bare-bones approach, even with stinging words involved.
Not sure what the point is here? Of course it doesn't happen every time. I wouldn't even say it happens most times. I think the current discussion is centered on what to do when it DOES happen (because it definitely happens!). Do we ignore it? Say something? Is it worth posters trying to make their posts less caustic? Or is it reasonable to say that this is the internet, posters old and new get what they get and if they don't like it, tough?
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And there is tone in text. Books are full of tone in text. Posts on a forum on the Internet are no different. No matter how you word something there will always be one other person who misinterprets what you're trying to get across. Period. Online and offline.
Okay, I will clarify. GOOD writers can often get an accurate tone across in text. Many, MANY posters on internet forums (this and others) are not good enough writers to accurately portray their intended tone in text. So again, the question as I see it is: How much do we each care about how our posts are perceived/received? Is it worth trying to be more careful about language or is a "Fuck it" attitude acceptable?
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I won't debate the coddling thing, because I've seen it. Just like I've seen that last example.
Debate...what? That it's not effective? Or that it happens? Of course it happens, I don't believe anyone ever said otherwise, so again I'm not sure what your point was.
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  #46  
Old 05-30-2012, 08:14 AM
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Not sure what the point is here? Of course it doesn't happen every time. I wouldn't even say it happens most times. I think the current discussion is centered on what to do when it DOES happen (because it definitely happens!). Do we ignore it? Say something? Is it worth posters trying to make their posts less caustic? Or is it reasonable to say that this is the internet, posters old and new get what they get and if they don't like it, tough?
I think it's unreasonable to expect people to change the way they post, especially when there are options available that allow you to pretty much forget they exist, if it's that bothersome. An outright insistence makes it seem like new posters are incapable of handling themselves. Feeling insulted for someone doesn't mean they feel the same way you do.


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Originally Posted by ThatGirlInGray View Post
Okay, I will clarify. GOOD writers can often get an accurate tone across in text. Many, MANY posters on internet forums (this and others) are not good enough writers to accurately portray their intended tone in text. So again, the question as I see it is: How much do we each care about how our posts are perceived/received? Is it worth trying to be more careful about language or is a "Fuck it" attitude acceptable?
But that's assuming everyone has time to sit down and reread everything they type before hitting submit. It could be perceived that they don't care. Does that mean they don't? Not necessarily. Like I said before, things get misinterpreted all. the. time. It happens. We don't all like the way everyone says things. We also have, and exercise, the option of challenging posts. As long as that is in place anything about a "fuck it" attitude does not go unnoticed or unchecked.


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Originally Posted by ThatGirlInGray View Post
Debate...what? That it's not effective? Or that it happens? Of course it happens, I don't believe anyone ever said otherwise, so again I'm not sure what your point was.
You mentioned people coming in the thread and turning "kind and compassionate" into "coddling" and my response to that is, there hasn't been any.
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  #47  
Old 05-30-2012, 05:38 PM
ThatGirlInGray ThatGirlInGray is offline
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I think it's unreasonable to expect people to change the way they post
So in redpepper's words, "We make people work on their shit" is only supposed to apply to things like shucking off the societal expectations of monogamy, jealousy, etc? We can't apply it to written communication? I'm trying to find a way to make that seem less snarky/sarcastic, but I'm at a loss. Is it really so unreasonable to ask that people try to think a little more about how their words might be perceived by others? We won't always be successful, of course, but I think the effort of trying and then recognizing when and why we are unsuccessful is important.
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An outright insistence makes it seem like new posters are incapable of handling themselves. Feeling insulted for someone doesn't mean they feel the same way you do.
I think I stated before, just because someone CAN handle something on their own doesn't mean they should HAVE to. Generally people come here for support of some kind, and sometimes my support is given in the thread, sometimes by PM. You could turn your own point around to say that someone capable of handling themselves against someone I see as insulting is also capable of telling me to butt out!
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But that's assuming everyone has time to sit down and reread everything they type before hitting submit. It could be perceived that they don't care. Does that mean they don't? Not necessarily. Like I said before, things get misinterpreted all. the. time. It happens. We don't all like the way everyone says things. We also have, and exercise, the option of challenging posts. As long as that is in place anything about a "fuck it" attitude does not go unnoticed or unchecked.
Working backwards, isn't that what we're doing here? Aren't we challenging ideas based on things we've noticed? Or were you only talking about the "report this post" icon?

And yes, I assume that usually someone taking the time to read about and comment on the problems of a stranger can take the extra minute or two after the 10 or whatever they've already put in to double-check what they've written. Not everything it always going to be caught, because we're all human, but to me part of respecting others is putting that time in.
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  #48  
Old 05-30-2012, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ThatGirlInGray View Post
So in redpepper's words, "We make people work on their shit" is only supposed to apply to things like shucking off the societal expectations of monogamy, jealousy, etc? We can't apply it to written communication? I'm trying to find a way to make that seem less snarky/sarcastic, but I'm at a loss. Is it really so unreasonable to ask that people try to think a little more about how their words might be perceived by others? We won't always be successful, of course, but I think the effort of trying and then recognizing when and why we are unsuccessful is important.
Wow you took that as snarky and sarcastic? Where I come from its just an expression that means we all come here to work on stuff going on for us and to be challenged on how we do things. Case in point, I'm being challenged by you ThatGirlInGray. Got it. I will look at how I say things. Especially on threads you are writing on. It sounds like some extra attention to these kinds of details is important to you.

Edit: actually, having read the response you gave about something I wrote about cheating on another thread... Please block my posts ThatGirlInGray. I think its just going to make you feel a lot better as I seem to annoy you no matter what I say. Thanks. Then we can all carry on.
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Last edited by redpepper; 05-30-2012 at 08:44 PM.
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  #49  
Old 05-30-2012, 10:42 PM
ThatGirlInGray ThatGirlInGray is offline
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Woah, hang on! Looks like it's time for me to apologize, and there's evidence right there that no matter how hard one tries to be clear, yes, misunderstandings can still happen!

Redpepper, I'm so sorry, I in NO way meant that YOUR words were snarky or sarcastic. I was quoting you because you're absolutely right. This IS a place that has high expectations of working on one's issues rather than ignoring them, and I agree with you that it definitely should be that way! I meant MY questions were snarky/sarcastic. This part:
Quote:
only supposed to apply to things like shucking off the societal expectations of monogamy, jealousy, etc? We can't apply it to written communication?
I was trying to find a way to write that part so the questions came off as sincere, rather than sarcastic, but I guess I got it all muddled in my head this time! Again, my apologies, I didn't realize there was a way to read it as me thinking YOU were being sarcastic or snarky. Not at all. I don't remember EVER reading a post by you that came off as sarcastic or snarky.

Back to the overall thread, I think I couldn't mentally get around my own sarcastic tone this time because I feel it's rather ridiculous to claim that asking people to work on how they communicate is unreasonable, especially on a relationships forum where we espouse over and over how important communication is! Yes, it's the internet, and yes, we're mostly strangers to each other, but I don't see those as reasons to treat what we say to each other or how we say it as less important.

It's not going to be perfect and misunderstandings will certainly still occur, I just can't understand the people who seem to be against even trying. It doesn't make sense to me.
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  #50  
Old 05-31-2012, 03:14 AM
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ImaginaryIllusion ImaginaryIllusion is offline
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This discussion has been going on a while now, and I don't see any reason to interrupt such discourse at all, but I wanted to take this opportunity to haul out some key portions of the user guidelines that I think apply to this discussion, and is worth all members new and old to read and consider from time to time.

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•Welcome

These discussion boards were founded to provide space for all manner of discussion about polyamory, a form of ethical non-monogamy. The intent is to provide a venue to speak frankly about the personal issues and relationship issues involved in balancing multiple relationships at one time. The founder and moderation staff hope that site members can find kindred souls to offer support and insight in a civil and possibly friendly, caring fashion, though the latter is certainly not a given when considering the nature of the Internet.

•Why We’re Here

Our site founder, Olivier, founded the boards for the purpose of creating an environment where people can find help, respect, and support for their situations. Polyamory.com is intended to be an informative place, where poly folk can come for friendly discussion, support from peers, and a bit of TLC. That’s not to say that everybody found on the boards will be the sort of person you’d share a coffee with to chat, nor that the conversations will always be warm and friendly; we only work to ensure that discussions remain civil.

•What’s Expected and Allowed

First and foremost, we expect members to respect these guidelines. We have rules in place to ensure that we can offer our members a place to discuss issues that is free from ..., overwrought drama, and generally boorish behavior. This forum is a home of sorts, and where we wouldn't allow salesmen to work our holiday parties nor drunken jackasses to abuse other dinner guests, we won't allow that sort of thing here, either.
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•Communicate

We want to point out that not everybody involved will communicate in the same fashion. There are bound to be sparks flying at times, as people with different discussion styles come in conflict. We don’t mind that. We also expect folks who engage in those discussions to exhibit a good deal of restraint and work out the issues through continued communication—you know, that communication thing that is so important to relationships!

Should you ever wonder if somebody’s trying to insult you or demean you or otherwise deliberately hurt your feelings, we’d like you to ask for clarification. Indeed, if you’re feeling put out by another member, instead of making a mess on the boards, take it to private messaging and ask what’s going on. We imagine a majority of perceived personal slights could be laid to rest through simply asking what’s going on in a PM.
Something that people may want to consider in using to gauge themselves... how do you behave when you have dinner guests over at your place... and how might that differ from how you would treat other dinner guests when at a friend's house?

That is all.
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