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  #241  
Old 06-06-2012, 10:08 PM
MeeraReed MeeraReed is offline
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It's obviously ridiculous to regard consensual monogamy as slavery...I mean there's no way you can even reply to the original poster's friend's comment, it's just so silly.

However, I do think that a society that expects monogamy--that demands monogamy as proof of love, that judges a person's general success & well-being on whether they are in a monogamous relationship--is an oppressive society.

Despite living in liberal subcultures in the U.S. in 2012, I do live in that society.

Okay, that sounds melodramatic when you consider societies/governments that are actually oppressing their citizens.

Anyway, my complaint is more about the societal expectation that everyone should be in a Relationship, not so much about monogamy.

However, on another level I'm quite serious. I'm frustrated about how much I have to repress about myself to fit my society's expectations.

And I'm frustrated that the poly community's response is usually just, "Oh well, some people are mono and some people are poly."

But my issue isn't really with the poly community (which I actually think is awesome). I'm not really complaining.

Mostly I'm still frustrated about the friends I lost because I didn't know how to explain that yes, I really liked my boyfriend AND I still wanted to see other people. And yes, it felt perfectly natural to me, so no, I had to idea that my boyfriend resented me.
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  #242  
Old 06-07-2012, 07:39 PM
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Re:
Quote:
"I do think that a society that expects monogamy -- that demands monogamy as proof of love, that judges a person's general success and well-being on whether they are in a monogamous relationship -- is an oppressive society."
True. True.

Re:
Quote:
"I'm frustrated about how much I have to repress about myself to fit my society's expectations."
I can relate to that frustration ...
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  #243  
Old 06-09-2012, 01:44 AM
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Kommander Kommander is offline
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In practice, if one is cheating it usually presents a situation I am not comfortable with, and I will not proceed. In theory though, I am not responsible for the actions of others. Becoming involved with someone who is cheating is usually stupid, but I would not say that it is wrong. I would not outright say that this is a deal breaker, but there would have to be one hell of a good set of extenuating circumstances for me to go along with it. What those circumstances are I can't say. If I find a situation in which I feel comfortable being involved with someone who is cheating, I'll come back to this thread and let everyone know.

Some other things brought up in the thread:

"I'm not interested in liars." I'd rather not be involved with liars myself, but the only way to accomplish that would be to find a nice cozy little cave on the moon to move in to, and once there constantly keep my eyes closed, my fingers in my ears and hum to myself on the off-chance that NASA decided to resume Lunar missions. All people lie, some more than others, but it's something all people do. If I know someone to be a liar, I can pick up on what kinds of things they lie about and can form an understanding of what I can trust them with and what I cannot.

"If they cheated on someone else, they'll cheat on you." It really depends on why they cheated in the first place, and if that reason is present in my relationship with that person. I do not demand exclusivity and I don't believe in veto powers. Cheating on me is pretty much pointless; the only thing it'll accomplish is pissing me off. If someone doesn't feel comfortable discussing their other relationships with me, or if they're just the sort of person that enjoys sneaking around, I would not be involved with them whether or not they're cheating on me.

"I could be in danger if it's discovered." Yeah, that's a possibility. However, this situation is possible even if it's not strictly a result of cheating. With every girl I've dated, there's always someone that wants me out of the picture. An ex-boyfriend that can't admit to himself that it's over, someone with a crush who can't accept that a romantic relationship will never happen, a metamour that tolerates non-exclusivity but doesn't really want it and keeps it to himself. I've been threatened by all these kinds of people. However, I don't negotiate with ass holes.
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  #244  
Old 06-09-2012, 02:13 AM
feelyunicorn feelyunicorn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xared View Post
With every girl I've dated, there's always someone that wants me out of the picture. An ex-boyfriend that can't admit to himself that it's over, someone with a crush who can't accept that a romantic relationship will never happen, a metamour that tolerates non-exclusivity but doesn't really want it and keeps it to himself. I've been threatened by all these kinds of people. However, I don't negotiate with ass holes.
Yep. Excellent post.
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  #245  
Old 06-09-2012, 02:34 AM
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Kommander Kommander is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feelyunicorn View Post
Yep. Excellent post.
Yeah, that paragraph says a lot about me, doesn't it?

I tend to be attracted to women that are extremely emotionally unstable, who in turn attract other extremely emotionally unstable people, which is probably the source of that kind of thing rather than it being random chance.

I seem to be moving away from that type though, so hopefully finding myself in those kinds of situations will happen less frequently from now on.
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  #246  
Old 06-09-2012, 03:06 AM
feelyunicorn feelyunicorn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xared View Post
Yeah, that paragraph says a lot about me, doesn't it?

I tend to be attracted to women that are extremely emotionally unstable, who in turn attract other extremely emotionally unstable people, which is probably the source of that kind of thing rather than it being random chance.

I seem to be moving away from that type though, so hopefully finding myself in those kinds of situations will happen less frequently from now on.
I wish you luck. Let me know if you find people who are both attractive and emotionally stable out there. Seems almost unfair to the competition.
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  #247  
Old 06-10-2012, 11:53 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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Joreth beaks it down, leaving me nothing to add but "yes, this."

http://joreth.livejournal.com/270911.html
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  #248  
Old 06-11-2012, 05:10 AM
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NovemberRain NovemberRain is offline
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I have been steadfastly avoiding this thread, even though it keeps popping up. (I read by clicking 'new posts')

I have always held a hard line in regards to cheating, except when I haven't.

I am one of those children raised by crazy and dysfunctional and cheating parents. I have spent way more time than any child should learning about my parents' relationship. My father always cheated on my mother (his words: 'i thought pregnancy sewed it shut'). My mother stayed. Then she decided she couldn't take it anymore and they'd get divorced. She had him back one more time. Guess what he did? She lost her nut and became that crazy woman, who actually did try to deprive him of me (of course, her view was not allowing his immoral ass near me) by moving me to the other side of the country. Not that being deprived of me ever came under his consideration for his actions. I came home from school as a teen not knowing if I would find her alive. That's just not something children should have to do.

I said to him, many years later, 'why did you leave me with that crazy woman?' And he looked me in the eye and said 'we thought trying to get you out would make it worse.' Truthfully, he was probably right. Though, I don't really believe that they agonized over it one bit (him and his gf).

So, I ensured my own integrity by never cheating. And I threw people out of my life for stuff that even remotely looked like cheating. Except for the ones who I didn't. There was one I attempted a triad with ~ but that little cheater had been attempting to seduce us both separately. I have put up with (by many different people) drugs, alcohol, bad checks, lying, broken agreements; but finding a girl in his house? that was the end. I'm sure they hadn't slept together, I doubt they'd kissed. But I was not informed. And I was done.

But yah, now (many years later) he's one of my vee. So, my lines are not nearly as clear as I want them to be. Some of that putting up with bad things is from not working on my own shit. Some of not doing it anymore is from becoming old and tired of it. I'd like to say that it's because I love myself more, but that's just not why.

So, my intention would be to not be with cheaters. I'd like to say that I would drop folks lying to their others. I just can't say for certain.

I'm glad I finally made time and read this thread. It's been very thought-provoking.
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  #249  
Old 06-11-2012, 07:03 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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I find it interesting that many people who have strong feelings about it are people who used to cheat. I think it's because they're so upset with themselves.

Personally, when I was a teenager, I had sex once with a guy who was in a long term relationship, and slept around with a different woman/girl pretty much every day. He happened to be my first sexual (intercourse) partner and I felt his experience would be a good thing. He was very gentle, respectful and made sure to show me whatever I wanted. It was a good experience.

Now, did I think he was a jerk for cheating? Well, to be honest, at that point of my life, I didn't realise there were people who didn't cheat. I had never cheated (still never have) but I assumed monogamy was a big front people kept, and the difference was in how well you hid your cheating. I didn't feel like a bad person. I knew if it wasn't me, it would be someone else, and I didn't think I was hurting her relationship in any way whatsoever.
Now, years later, almost a decade really... I don't know. I still don't feel bad. I had assumed she knew in some way, because you know, everybody cheats so of course he did, and that she was grateful to him for hiding it. To me, my responsibilities were not telling her since she didn't want to know, and not getting attached to him since he had been honest from the start about the whole situation.

Now that I know some people don't cheat, I wonder if she thought he didn't. I knew the guy, I knew many of the women he had sex with. Hell, he had sex with almost every female he knew (once). I got something out of it, he got something out of it, I didn't think about it twice.

I never thought she was evil, or hurting him, or anything. For all I know she was a good person. I figured I would also grow up to marry a man who was amazing (he certainly was a great friend and a great person. And yes, also a cheater.) and that this man who cheat on me with everything that moved. And that it was the way things were, but the one he married was me, so why would I care who he had sex with? And that apparently, hiding it was a form of love and respect, so he would hide it.

Then, you know, I changed my perspectives. I realised some people don't cheat, and they're not just better liars. It came up as a big surprise. All the happy couples I had assumed were cheating, I started wondering if maybe they weren't. And later when I learned about polyamory I realised that it was what I wanted all along. And that maybe the fact I didn't care who my partners had sex with could be a result of being polyamorous. Maybe other people actually cared.

Now that I have said openly that I don't want lies, that I don't care if he has sex as long as he tells me, it would hurt if he did it behind my back. But in a monogamous relationship, I don't think it would have hurt. I always assumed it was going on anyways, or would be.

I haven't been with another cheater, and I wouldn't now that I'm polyamorous, because I would want to interact with the partner, and I wouldn't want anything to do with drama. But I also know if I was in a coma, I wouldn't want my partners to stop having new partners, or to refrain from having sex with people I was not, could not be aware of. If I woke up from a coma and they said they had refrained all that time, I would certainly be upset with them. Because they would have made themselves miserable, and making me into the bad guy, since I was the reason behind it.
And I have never told them that, never thought to tell them that. I assumed it went without saying. I'll make sure to tell them, now, but if I hadn't had time to, and they had done it, many people here in this thread would have condemned them, and the person they would have dated, as terrible people, even though it's what I would have wanted. And that upsets me.
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  #250  
Old 06-11-2012, 09:09 PM
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I don't recommend cheating, and, I don't recommend getting involved with someone who is cheating (which would, IMO, just make you a co-cheater with that person). However, it has been my experience that many of my own blanket statements have been overturned by specific instances. So I have to know all the relative details about a particular situation before I can pass judgment on it.

I would emphasize that traditional monogamous marriage often has a lot of dysfunctional social conditioning tied into it. Lots of people grow up being taught to believe that the standard marital vows are always perfectly natural and realistic. Sometimes people change, even when they never would have dreamed that they'd ever change to that extent.

As a former Latter-day Saint, I made solemn promises in the temple that absolutely forbade me to ever become less than 100% loyal to the church, for the rest of my life (and beyond). Seeing that I've left the church, I obviously broke those promises. I had my reasons (or rationalizations); primarily, finding out that the church I believed I was committing to was not the church that actually exists. So in semantic terms, I didn't break the promises I thought I had made. But my point here is that it's not always so simple to judge an individual situation, even when the precepts involved seem 100% clear.

I believe there is quite a range of circumstances in which cheating occurs. Some cases of cheating are relatively venial, while others are despicable. All involve dishonesty, lack of consent, or both, by definition. So I wouldn't recommend cheating (or involvement with cheating), but I also wouldn't be too quick to pass any blanket judgment on it.

I'll also doubly caution people about the commitments they make. I myself am in a committed poly relationship, but the vows I made to it are like a special exception to the rules I've learned about life. Any promise is, by definition, an attempt to predict (one aspect of) the future. I just would say, be really careful about that.
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