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  #31  
Old 06-01-2012, 08:57 PM
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SNeacail SNeacail is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Questioning View Post
Thoughts: M got drunk and fucked someone last night, therefore, what we have is broken.
This is just your paranoia making up worst case scenarios, right? Slaps hand - "Stop that!"

Glad you were able to get to a better place.
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  #32  
Old 06-01-2012, 10:46 PM
Questioning Questioning is offline
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Originally Posted by Questioning
Thoughts: M got drunk and fucked someone last night, therefore, what we have is broken.

This is just your paranoia making up worst case scenarios, right? Slaps hand - "Stop that!"



Oh yes, it's silly paranoia, and worth it (for me) to challenge the thoughts to show this is so. The whole underlying fear is that I won't handle it, therefore, not good enough, not loved bla bla bla. The broken record. For me to get off this cycle of thinking I have to actively stamp out thoughts others (emotionally healthier others?) can dismiss outright.

Thing is, TEA is making me accept even worse case scenarios are not armageddon (except perhaps armageddon ) which is making reality itself a wonderful comparison instead of the doom, no choices wank I ran over and over without TEA. I wasn't always like this, doesn't matter why I am really, just what I can do about it now. And though it's hard to start, and makes you a bit raw at first, TEA is for me very effective, and fast.

Please excuse if I sound defensive, not intented. I appreciate the feedback.
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  #33  
Old 06-02-2012, 01:36 AM
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There's a lot of wisdom to confronting the "worst case scenario" (as a hypothetical) straight up. You'll do fine, just look forward to the good times you'll have with M in the near future.
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  #34  
Old 06-02-2012, 11:05 PM
Questioning Questioning is offline
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Obsession, I've been examining the psychology of it in the hopes to unravel it. I go through extreme pain at times, am in it now, when I don't know exactly what's going on, this is sick.

So, obsession. Let's examine how dark this shit gets, in the hope of some light.

My obsession with M is said to be a secondary emotional response, fortified by beliefs (experience and worldview), that is an attempt by the logical mind to cover up a primary emotional response.

A primary emotional response is at the heart of it. Attached to this primary emotional response is an image - a picture of the stimulus that first created this primary emotional response.

I can say right now the primary emotional response is fear. Fear that I won't handle it, that I will hurt M, or someone she is with, or myself. The image attached to this is one of despair and desolation, burned bridges, self loathing, loneliness, hopelessness, suicidal despondency. So I'm trying to protect myself from some pretty dark stuff. There's a lesson here. A dire warning. I am NOT responsible for others behaviour only my own. I can NOT control others. I CAN control myself. Trying to control things outside of my control leads to feelings of powerlessness, so I cling on tighter. Silly, let go.

Where's the obsession coming from? I'm terrified of surprises, of having something revealed to me so abhorrent I wont cope and will act innapropriately. I'm trying to protect myself, and her. I'm looking for certainty in an uncertain situation. Keeping my thoughts on what she might possibly be doing wrong I am covering the possibility that I might do something wrong (not handle it). I'm looking for ammunition to tell her to fuck off, I'm terrified of losing love so much (especially if it is my fault) I'm looking for reasons to not love. Reasons to run away. My primary response is to RUN, throw all my toys out of the cot and scream defiance at the love that was not fulfilled by my parents (and projected onto her).

So my logical brain steps in, says this is all nonsense, and love is rare and precious and must be nurtured, however, I should be careful!! And so the obsession begins, me trying to control things out of my control so that i might have risk free love - HA!

It hurts being me at times. It hurts facing such truths. Dark thoughts are only thoughts though. I am a good man, and have made many wise yet painful decisions in my life. I will not lose the plot, hurt anyone or burn my bridges. I need to shift my focus to areas I have control over. Work, career, comedy, social life, health.

I need to adress those core fears too, with TEA, scary right now, but i'll do it.
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  #35  
Old 06-03-2012, 01:45 AM
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Walking is good for thought, and I just spent some time with my thoughts on all this.

The obsession, I now realise, is made up of a lot of stuff. It is giving beyond giving. Many people know what I'm talking about, loving too much. The danger is that in giving giving giving a snapping point is reached and victim (giver) becomes persecutor. This ties to (my) primary fear of not handling things.

But the reality of M is she is not a selfish taker at all. She loves and gives generously. The reality is that my loving has become obsessive, as the primary fear (not handling it, therefore not good enough, therefore will be alone) is driving me to try and control things.

So I cook meals, compose bad poetry, think about M, talk about M, forum about M, text M, facebook M, phone M... Trying to be perfect, trying to stack up, trying to be good enough. And instead being a pain in the ass, for both of us.

Love is wonderful, love driven by fear is not love, it is obsession. Yet, on any given day I can feel love and obsession, the two have never met at the exact same time though, they are not compatible.

The image attached to my primary emotional response is like a combo of all the dark and lonely bits of my life. It drives fear into me. Fear drives the obsession to 'fix things'. To fix what? The fear of not handling things, therefore not being good enough, therefore being alone. This is the driver, it recurs like a stuck record all through this thread, it recurs in many men I know.

Why the stuck record - the revisiting of old issues, wounds? It seems the primary issues are not being resolved as I face fears in the context of what's happening with M (obsessive secondary response).

I am afraid of losing love. Whether me being good enough, her leaving, whatever. I am afraid of being alone period. I don't like it. The experience of being alone is clouded with this horrible imagery and obscuring all the wonderful happy independant times I have experienced in my life. So I'll change the thought of being alone from horrible to ok. I know I prefer having a lover, without a lover is not devastation and doom, it is transition.

The fear of not being good enough is a self esteem issue. That then, is my next target.
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  #36  
Old 06-03-2012, 08:28 AM
mobetterblues mobetterblues is offline
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Hi Questioning,

I joined this site around a month ago (see my thread from around a month ago ' GF of 4 years makes an announcement').

Your experiences / emotions are so similar to the ones I'm going through right now. Our situation began when J went behind my back around 2 months ago - she kind of fell for a guy at work and has since realised that she is poly, as she loves me and has no intention of removing me from her life, but likes spending time with this other guy, occasionally.

I've had the same feeling of my entire life being on hold while I completely obsess, jump to conclusions, often wrong ones, torturing myself really.

She moved out 3 weeks ago, to get some space (which I interpreted as get some 'him'). As it stands, we are separated, but she has made it clear that she sees her future with me. It is really only my obsessive thinking, suspicion and jealousy that are keeping us apart, and she has told me this (aside from the breathing space she needs anyway, to process her own ideas about herself, what she wants from life etc). Those 3 weeks for me have been a living hell - I have been obsessing night and day. If I analyse why, I think maybe because I've lost control, of her, us, that I'm feeling abandoned, and of course the green eyed monster is playing his role in my obsession.

There are so many parallels with my own story that I felt compelled to add a post - you are not alone padre, and I actually think you are a bit further down the road to recovery/acceptance than I am, but I have started working on it, which is the first step. Accepting and loving her the way she is and dealing with the new reality, and dealing with my emotions, feelings of rejection, fear or losing her, jealousy etc, is the only way forward.

This week I told her that not only do I accept her the way she is, but I'm willing to accommodate this guy in her life - to start with I've suggested one 'date' day per month. I think we are making progress and she knows that this is a massive act of love from me. I've also stopped the constant contact with her that I know was suffocating her.

You mentioned TEA - is that an American term? I'm in the UK and have googled, but the results, (typically for the UK) come up with the tea we drink copious amounts of here. I know I need help to deal with my situation, and want to start therapy to deal with the pain I've suffered recently, as well as the new reality I face going forward. So I'm interested to find out the ways you help yourself on this.
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  #37  
Old 06-03-2012, 08:26 PM
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The TEA is fromcognitive Behavioural Therapy. It is Thoughts, Errors, Analysis.

I just got dumped. She says she doesn't love me the way I love her and she feels guilty encouraging me. My obsession finally destroyed the thing I was obsessing about. M is still my friend but I am devastated at the moment, and have 3 exams on next week. She will still be friends but she is not attracted to me anymore. Why?

I think I ruined it, I said I accepted her polyamory, then I took the acceptance back, got obsessed again, and started making all sorts of accusations and demanding answers to things that are really none of my business.

So the thing you got to ask yourself - Can I live with this? If you believe you can that's all good, and saying so is an act of love and kindness, but if you go back on your word and get all emotional instead of having rational conversations about boundaries etc, you may be permanently out of grace.

I got to pick up the pieces here, I got far too much on for a crisis, but crisis it is. I neeed to stay out of my obsession and concentrate on study. DAMMIT!

I suck at love.
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  #38  
Old 06-03-2012, 08:57 PM
mobetterblues mobetterblues is offline
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I'm sorry to hear that. Hopefully it's just a point you both needed to get to, and now she has the time she needs to compute and analyse, she will realise that you were trying to deal with the new reality, but that you had some backward steps as well as forward ones. After all you were instrumental in articulating it the poly situation in the first place.
I fear I'm going down the same path, another bad night tonight - just when it seemed like we were making progress, she was out with her friends and I started to obsess and create scenarios in my mind, that actually weren't true. We spoke tonight and she said I'm losing her. If I cannot keep a handle on this soon, I know I will. because I know the worst thing in all of this situation, is my bad reaction to things. I will qualify this and say that some of my reactions have been perfectly understandable. But I know that some have been borne out of complete obsession.
Thanks for the info on therapy. I fear I might need grief therapy soon!
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  #39  
Old 06-04-2012, 12:00 AM
Questioning Questioning is offline
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OK mobetterblues, I am here for you. That was the shortest 'dumped' I've ever had. We just had sex twice, now she's gone home to study.

But... REALITY!!! She was in love with me but I kept being emo. Now I am not in good graces, and any more emo stuff and she'll be gone for good. Feelings are ok, obsession is hard work, horrible bullshit.

Last year my obsession started and basically I have been an emo idiot for the best part of a year. It's really fucked, as you know, if she pushes me away I get emo, if i'm not emo I can't do anything wrong. My obsession tells me 'she doesn't stick with you through thick and thin' - she does, but there's only so much emotional blackmail (I'll hurt myself) and accusations a loved one can take before they despair of you. M cares a great deal but my emotions got beyond reasonable bounds several times. mistakes are fine, repeated mistakes just get fucking boring.

So I begged. FUCK PRIDE when it comes to love, pride is nothing but a construct of the ego, a bunch of messages from people who like to sound important and knowing, pride is bullshit. And your obsession will use your pride to try and justify all that wasted energy you put into it.

Here's where we're at. She's decided I'm too unstable as a partner. She lost attraction to me for exactly the reason I said, taking back the acceptance of polyamory - when I pointed it out as the reason, and apologised, I knew there was hope as her reception of this was very good. She loves me, but is not 'in love' with me. I still turn her on (YAY) but 'in love' is when a woman feels safe with me, I have been too unstable lately, I might try to repair this, but concentrating on fixing 'us' is actually an error. Understanding 'us' the polyamory really helped, but there is no 'us' to fix. There's me to fix. If M is in my life or not, there's me to fix. So, i have a wonderful friend, she will be my lover if i can stop the emotional rubbish. If I pin my hopes on a long term prospect with her I will probably get hurt again. She has given up on me as a long term prospect.

If I spend my waking hours trying to win her back (obsessing) I am a fool, the obsessing is the root of the problems now, the polyamory is dealt with and understood. I need to get my life as full and rewarding as possible, to stand on my own feet. M is a bonus in my life, not a given.

As love is never a given, and there is a lot of uncertainty in building a relationship, people often feel out of control. For myself feeling like I have no control scares the crap out of me (due to past) so I try to control things, plan to, think about how to.... I OBSESS!

And under the obsession is the fear. I wont handle it therefore I'm not good enough therefore I will always be alone. The best advice i can give you is to trot out those fears and use TEA as a tool to dispel them. TEA is a marvellous tool, it will leave you feeling RAW for a couple of days, but you'll feel improvements fast. Get professional help if you can. Get into a CBT group, not for her, not to fix the couple thing, for your peace of mind, your happiness. It sounds counterintuitive but the more we try to fix things the more we fuck them up. We are POWERLESS over people, only ourselves.

Yeah I know, obsession, you feel powerless. it's hard to stop. It's hard to start anything else. You don't really have a choice, pain then despair (obsession) or pain then improvement (TEA and good therapy) are your options really. she could come back and be attentive and everything is WONDERFUL again, but that obsession still lives in your head, first sign of trouble (real or imagined) it will rear its ugly head again.

I am writing this stuff for myself as much as I am for you. I'll do another post shortly, on my analysis of my obsession so far, see if it rings any bells. I send you love and caring over the internet, you are not alone, only when you are in that head of yours.
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  #40  
Old 06-04-2012, 01:17 AM
Questioning Questioning is offline
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First some shorthand, so hopefully you'll see the links, or lack of links more clearly.

1 = primary emotional response
2 = secondary emotional response (also known as obsession).
1a = image attached to 1
2b = Beliefs attached to 2
-> = leading to, attached to or causing

1 is the underlying cause of 2. (1 ->2) Dealing directly with 2 e.g. the thoughts associated with 2 is a great way to keep yourself maintained a bit, but does not deal with 1 which causes 2 so the problem can resurface. 2 is hiding 1. And 2 hides 1 in such a manner it is difficult to get at. But you can get in around the edges when you see the construction of the beast. I recommend writing out a model for yourself if models (flow chart etc) work for you.

Here's how it is built.

1 -> 1a < -> thoughts about 1 & 1a -> 2b <-> 2.

As you can see, 1 is far removed from 2, though going from 1 - 2 can be instant.

1 is a subconscious effort to prevent something terrible happening. Something triggers the subconscious which reacts to protect you. The subconscious uses what it can (worldview, information, experiences) to create 1a - an image of what originally triggered the emotional response. 1a is typically composed of past problems, failures, experiences that were really horrible - as a mechanism to induce fear it works, and some may recognise what is unresolved and why they got triggered, and some (like me) may runneth screaming "Fuck that shit, it hurts too much". This (resolution or run) is the "thoughts about 1 and 1a" process following 1 and 1a. The image can be instant, take you completely off gaurd, and so we may react instead of catch it for what it is (past shit, unlearned lesson, unresolved trauma, crooked worldview, whatever it is).

The thought of my losing M causes 1. FEAR. Fear of not being able to handle it. Fear I will hurt (physically &/or emotionally) M or someone else or myself. Fear I will become a complete wreck. I've hit a man who was with 'my' girl before and felt so bad about it, I've been a blithering mess before, my subconscious knows this and is trying to protect me. It uses the most powerful images it can find to try and protect me - doh. The fear I can't handle it has a process too. If i don't handle it -> I'm not good enough -> then I wont be loved. We just want to be loved.

It's not just about fears here though. There's a lesson to learn. For me... It's about forgiving myself for mistakes in the past, about me doing a better job of looking after myself today, about me dealing with my jealousy, about me enjoying my own company. It's not about being loved by others, it's about loving myself. I want to be loved - love myself! M is not in this picture, I got to take my power back, which is where this can actually help things with M. The images of me at my worst combined with thoughts of worst case scenarios are a powerful combo that spell out doom and gloom. I MUST do something to fix this, so I make a dickhead of myself and run to 2b

Opting to run, and fueled by scary thoughts about 1 and 1a we go into avoidance mode 2b -> 2. 2b is the beliefs - I can control (handle) it, if I pay enough attention I will resolve this issue and never go to 1 again. I go over and over what is potentially wrong, and how I can fix it. This, as you'd recognise, is 2. OBSESSION!

I can fix it, I can handle it, how do I, what if I, what if she.... then 1 and 1a pop in and I recoil in fright back to 2b - I can control, I must control...

See that horrible 1a, telling me not only if I get dumped will I be alone, I will lose it, grow dishevelled, lash out, be despairing and despised. This is only thoughts. Yes, I must learn the lessons, and that way 1a never happens. As I deal with 1 though working on my fears, and adopting a lot more self love (fake it till ya make it), it will dispel 1a as it is inherently false in todays context. If 1 is resolved, 1a is disarmed, and 2a -> 2 no longer exist.

Bloody worth a shot aye! Imagine if you will, living day to day and enjoying it without all the hurt and worry and self deprecation etc etc. Imagine, being happy in your own skin. It is entirely possible, but it won't be easy facing your demons, but really, what choice do you have.
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