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  #11  
Old 03-11-2010, 06:54 PM
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Lemondrop Lemondrop is offline
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I don't know, I kind of think I would have had the same reaction. The second my husband got the call to come play, I would feel that he should have stood up and said, "Hey, you said some s**tty things about my wife/partner and I don't want to be around that." Would he have said that? Pretty unlikely. It took me 15 years to get him to tell his father that we decided as a couple that I would be a stay-at-home mother and I wasn't a sponge and I wasn't getting a job so get over it. Would my boyfriend have said that? I really, really doubt that--it's not in his nature. Would my girlfriend have said that? In a hot minute. And she would have given them a piece of her mind and a clear picture of how their behavior would change. Would I have said that? I hope so, but I've been weak and dumb in the past.

What is your ideal outcome here? Do you just want some rules laid out? Do you want it enough to prevent your boys from socializing? What is your priority here? Do you want your boys to hang out with these friends (who would have thought we'd have to socialize our partners like we socialize our kids?) enough to tolerate their bad behavior in the past on probation? With the understanding that misbehavior gets you booted until you can behave in a respectful manner? Do you trust your boys to figure out that they don't want to be around people who think they have a right to judge you?

For myself, I know that I can't control what other people say or do behind my back, but they darn well better show polite behavior to my face or I don't come back. I think I would give everyone the benefit of a doubt--because I think it's good for my boys to socialize, and because I know my husband is a social boy and because I know that Sunday won't unless he's prodded, and because it's been a while and maybe the others have learned some manners. I would have to trust that my boys will have good sense and not spend time with someone who is disrespectful to me. I would complain a lot in the background. I don't have any experience with people who were as confrontational as they've been with you, but they tend to be threatened by strong women. Perhaps it would be helpful to discuss with Maca and GG what they will do if certain criticisms are mentioned? It might help reassure you that they do know what to do if the situation comes up.

Sorry that I probably rambled. The bottom line is...I'd give it a chance and see what happened. But I truly sympathize with you. I hate when I have to be the bigger person to people who don't deserve it. But I have found often that it paid off, and I was able to repair or build at least a working relationship with the other people.
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  #12  
Old 03-11-2010, 07:22 PM
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The vocal judgement of friends or other people is something we all deal with from many areas. There is judgement about Redpepper from my more traditional friends and there is judgement towards me from some of our poly friends. This is why I am selective in who I let know the details of my relationship; some would push me very hard and I have no issue with using other forms of communication to encourage some one to shut up if they are aggressively attacking those I love or my own principles and beliefs.
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Old 03-11-2010, 07:25 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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What about getting everybody together in one room and saying, "Look, we're all adults now. Certain things have happened over the years and it's time to clear the air once and for all. Here's the deal..."

Etc.

This does not sound very complicated to me as an outsider. I think it's one of those deals where it's pretty simple but it LOOKS complicated to someone who has been in the thick of it the whole time.

Last edited by NeonKaos; 03-11-2010 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 03-11-2010, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
What about getting everybody together in one room and saying, "Look, we're all adults now. Certain things have happened over the years and it's time to clear the air once and for all. Here's the deal..."

Etc.
This!
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  #15  
Old 03-11-2010, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
What about getting everybody together in one room and saying, "Look, we're all adults now. Certain things have happened over the years and it's time to clear the air once and for all. Here's the deal..."

Etc.

This does not sound very complicated to me as an outsider. I think it's one of those deals where it's pretty simple but it LOOKS complicated to someone who has been in the thick of it the whole time.
I certainly didn't think it was complicated either-but it's blowing up into a nightmare now.

My bottom line is this-

the RESPONSIBLE way to "rebuild a friendship" with people who've shown themselves to be disrespectful and immature, is to address the prior behavior FIRST and if they agree that the behavior is in the past as a "well I was young and dumb" then you move forward.
NOT putting the horse before the carriage and saying "well I want to be friends with them so I'm going to test the waters by bringing in a NEW person-your husband specifically-but leave YOU out because they've always hated you, and if they like him maybe then they will be willing to stop hating you.

IF there had been no recurring issues-I might see it differently.

But the most important thing to ME in a relationship is loyalty.

Hanging out with people who openly talk crap about your significant other-promotiing your significant other's OSO's to build relationships with those people as well IS NOT LOYALTY.

I don't give a SHIT if they are men or women or dogs. You don't get kudos from me by choosing to maintain relationships with people who treat your loved ones like crap.

IF it had been a both way thing (I had been a bitch to them AND they had been assholes to me) THEN I could see the complication in him wanting to say "HEY EVERYONE-can we try to make peace etcetcetc" but the reality is that I haven't done ANYTHING to any of them-and he well knows it.
Their issue with me was all fabricated from their own ideas without any input from me. I never did him wrong. I never did them wrong. They were never a part of my life, never even so much as hung out with me ONE TIME (aside from the two brothers who both openly admit that they hate me because the other guys do).

Frankly-no I don't trust GG to do the right thing. IF that was his priority-he would/could have done it many many times over the last 14 years. His idea is that if he just plays nice long enough it will all blow over.
But it won't.

Maca already laid it on the line last night amidst a dramatic scene that he's not going to participate BECAUSE it would be wrong to promote a relationship with anyone who treats someone in his family like crap, that until THAT issue is resolved no forward progress can be made (GG doesn't want to bring it up, discuss it etc until AFTER they've all gotten to know Maca and "maybe that will help them accept LR"), AND
because as my DOM it's his job to protect me and my interests first.

SO-I guess where things stand for now is that Maca on his own made the right choice.
GG is now pissed and hurt and feels like he's being told how to handle his relationships..........
I actually told him he could do as he see's fit-but I have to do what I see fit as well and I'm not going to participate NOR allow my child to participate in relationships with people who are emotionally abusive to me. I can't think there is a whole lot more to say from my end.

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  #16  
Old 03-11-2010, 09:35 PM
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sorry-got interrupted so I hit post so it wouldn't time out.


Ygirl-I have suggested MANY times over the years having an "everyone sit down and air it out" discussion.

The guys won't meet with me,
and GG doesn't want to do that.
AND
has been clear that he won't do it before or during the game nights....

So-the REASON that won't happen is that he won't do it.

THAT is one of the key things I'm pissed about.

MY perception is that he isn't willing to make a stand for me, for us, for our relationship. I'm tired of being his "dirty little secret" to the people who DO fucking know I exist.

I dont' mean that in a poly way-I mean AT ALL. As a friend, as a lover, as the mother of his ONLY biological child-I'm just the hidden girl who is never with him when he see's his friends.

Ok-I better shut up. Not the time. .
Sorry.
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  #17  
Old 03-11-2010, 09:38 PM
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In that case, then it should be GG who invites everyone over and leads the discussion on "clearing the air". But, I don't see that happening if he is still stuck in high-school mode.

Sometimes people need to be told what is the right thing to do. In your case, you need to insist that he do the right thing. Perhaps he doesn't know what that is, or needs to hear it from someone else.

Grown men, when they get together, can show a remarkable aptitude for regressive behaviour.

At least Maca seems to be able to see the forest through the trees.

ETA: I wrote this while you were writing post #16. I was right after all. Your boyfriend/best friend/biological father of your youngest child/roommate/partner/lover/etc. needs to grow the fuck up like, YESTERDAY.

Last edited by NeonKaos; 03-11-2010 at 09:40 PM.
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  #18  
Old 03-11-2010, 10:06 PM
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I have told him that Ygirl.

I'm so hurt, sad, disheartened, disgusted, disenchanted, angry, etc right now I can hardly speak.

He feels like I am "not allowing him to do this his way."

BUT-his way is NO WAY.

It's not a "my way" or "your way" situation.
It's a functional healthy way or a non-functional not healthy way.

I've been out of highschool for too many years for these types of games.

I don't even have anything nice left to say about it.

I know-it's not TYPICAL for all of you to see me just so upset I can't even say something nice.

But-now you know-it does happen.

I don't know that there is anything LEFT to say really.
I've already said it.

I told Maca not 5 minutes ago-the most important thing in a relationship to me is Loyalty. Fidelity has NEVER been it, honesty has never been it, because honesty is a PART of loyalty-but loyalty isn't NECESSARILY a part of honesty.

Anyway-this strikes against the core of what MAKES a relationship for me.

Someone said they couldn't believe this hadn't come up before.

It has.

Just that now I'm not "just a friend". Friends can have friends who don't like each other. They still OUGHT to expect general respect but I'll leave that one for now.
When you are a family, living together, committed etc, then there is a responsibility to the GROUP that falls on each person. If you have no willingness to defend the group against attacks.... well then you have no family........

I pointed out to Maca, that this exact behavior from HIM in regards to his mother and his ex-wife was what caused the near demise of OUR relationship.
[he would say "LR isn't letting the kids come over because you allowed D to physically assault A with no consequence and that's an abusive and neglectful environment" instead of "WE are not letting..." and to his ex he just flat left town leaving me with the kid, dealing with her attempted kidnapping of my kids, no I'm not exaggerating, and repeated false allegations of abuse (all confirmed as intentionally fabricated by her own admission) due to her believing that if she got rid of me he'd come back to her]


So... I guess the next thing for me to figure out is, NOW what?
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Old 03-11-2010, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
ETA: I wrote this while you were writing post #16. I was right after all. Your boyfriend/best friend/biological father of your youngest child/roommate/partner/lover/etc. needs to grow the fuck up like, YESTERDAY.
That's where I'm at right now. Written about the same way I would say it if I were inclined to SAY something.

I sort of wish I had a punching bag, but I fear it wouldn't be the same as clocking something real. (no I don't get violent, just saying I FEEL like it).
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Old 03-13-2010, 07:19 PM
EugenePoet EugenePoet is offline
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"I've been out of highschool for too many years for these types of games."

Yeah. You nailed the dynamic!

IMHO, some social groups develop touchstone beliefs which are used as social glue. Affirmation of the touchstone belief is seen as the measure of each individual's buy-in to the group. Sometimes they're harmless, like sports boosterism -- "The Bulls are the best" one guy says, and everyone else echoes, along with some excuses for past losses, etc.

In your case I suspect that there are one or two guys in leadership roles who are keeping the touchstone myth going: "LR is a bitch, always was a bitch, and always will be a bitch." Everyone else is obliged to either affirm the myth or risk taking a downgrading in the group hierarchy.

You are EXACTLY right: it is juvenile, tribal-clique behavior. Irrational, hurtful, hypocritical, and mean as a bag full of blacksnakes. And it is extremely hard to confront in a group context. If you and Maca and GG were to sit down with the group and try to hash things out then I would predict one of two immediate outcomes:

1. The leader(s) and their major sycophants will immediately challenge every point you make. They will use emotional, irrational arguments designed to provoke an angry response, and when you finally can't take it and blow up they will fold their arms and say, "See? We're right."

2. The group will outwardly agree to some of your points. Watch the unofficial leader(s), though: their eyes will be masked, they will be holding back. As soon as you are gone they'll say, "OK, this proves it: see what an utter bitch she is?" It will be completely irrational, but it will be a litmus test and anyone who disagrees will take a group thrashing.

Again IMHO, if you really need to tackle this you might think about cutting the best of the cattle out of the herd. Talk to the most sympathetic and open of the guys individually. Get them away from the leader(s) and the sycophants and try for a rational and emotional connection.

This group dynamic is really snotty. I am incredibly fortunate in that there are several conscious minds in my workgroup. When the group-think gets going there's one guy in particular, Steve, who gets a kind of bored, sleepy look on his face. When the group-thinkers have all grunted and beat their chests about whatever irrational myth they're affirming then Steve chimes in with something slightly off-topic and funny as hell that deflates the whole thing.

Anyway. It sounds like Maca is golden. Lean on him.

Don't depend on GG. But I might suggest that his apparent weakness is understandable: there are millennia of chimp-style social reflexes working in the lowest levels of his mind, and we all have those reflexes -- the good and the bad. (I love the post-coital reflex, for instance, because it generates such wonderful pillow-talk sessions.)

Be kind, be generous, but don't rely on anyone for things they are not yet conscious enough or aware enough to provide. Help them grow if they can, maybe.

--------

Oh, hell, what I've written sounds all high-minded and self-confident, doesn't it? It's not. Take it all as tentative guesswork and half-baked goofball analysis.

I'd love to read more as the situations unfolds, though...

Last edited by EugenePoet; 03-13-2010 at 07:32 PM.
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