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  #51  
Old 03-08-2010, 09:36 PM
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^ This. *sighs* Thank you Ceoli. Back to work.

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  #52  
Old 03-08-2010, 09:38 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Ceoli, I have already asked you in chat - what do you suggest be done about this nebulous "culture issue" you keep referring to. You said something to the effect (heaven forbid I mis-quote you, but I no longer have that transcript) of "I'm not sure there's anything that CAN be done. I may end up having to leave the forum". I see a lot of kvetching about this "culture" issue from you and Raven, and zero suggestions about what the moderators can DO about it. It comes down to a case of "damned if we do, damned if we don't".

If people (such as the "leading members of the poly activist community") think this place sucks, they have the right to move on. I don't know of any forum that makes a point to have every person who ever looked at it stay and post forever. I have been to forums that were not a good fit for me and moved on to find another forum that suits my needs better, instead of staying at the forum I don't like and complaining that their "culture" is not "welcoming". That is one reason it is good to lurk on a new site at first.

I am growing rather weary of being told that this is a "culture issue not a moderator issue" on one hand, and on the other hand being told (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showp...7&postcount=19) that it's the moderators who set the tone of the culture and that we play favorites by tacitly agreeing with the passive-aggressive people (no, Raven doesn't say it in those words, but I am fluent enough in English to re-phrase something someone else wrote in my own words).

As for Joreth "not being acknowledged" about the child-free thing: first of all, it was not being ignored. I don't recall any requirement that people have to specifically address having read someone else's post(s) before making their own post. I often respond to a post early in a thread before reading the rest of the posts in that thread and I do not expect someone who said the same thing later or made a counterpoint to the thing I replied to rendering my post superfluous to jump down my throat and accuse me of not paying attention to them because I answered in the conversation without reading THEIR post. That is exactly what happened with Derbylicious' post and she was under no obligation to preface her post with "I read everything Joreth and Ceoli said and this is still how I feel". It's a very narcissistic attitude to take, getting bent out of shape because a few people didn't go out of their way to read and address everything everyone else said before briefly chiming in with their own point of view (however "oppressive" that POV might seem). Furthermore, I corrected Derby's reasoning without getting verbally assaultive and she conceded to my point before Joreth even posted her tantrum, which tells me at the very least that Joreth isn't really interested in what others have to say or what was written about a topic while she was not in the room, but only in yelling at people who she perceives to be against her for reasons real or otherwise.

Last edited by NeonKaos; 03-08-2010 at 09:42 PM.
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  #53  
Old 03-08-2010, 09:43 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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The number one reason why I feel like much of this board has lost importance or meaning for me, is that it seems like there is so much attention and time put into proving a point right or wrong, that there isn't anyone to "talk" to about POLYAMORY and the issues that arise in regards to it.
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  #54  
Old 03-08-2010, 09:59 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
Ceoli, I have already asked you in chat - what do you suggest be done about this nebulous "culture issue" you keep referring to. You said something to the effect (heaven forbid I mis-quote you, but I no longer have that transcript) of "I'm not sure there's anything that CAN be done. I may end up having to leave the forum". I see a lot of kvetching about this "culture" issue from you and Raven, and zero suggestions about what the moderators can DO about it. It comes down to a case of "damned if we do, damned if we don't".
I have made a suggestion both in chat and on this thread. I'll highlight that right now. With the clear idea that this is a SUGGESTION and not a criticism of the moderators.

I think it would be helpful if moderation was a bit more transparent. Usually when a standard is breached, the post in question is pulled from the thread and moderated behind the scenes with the final product being put back into the thread or removed from it. My experience has been that when posts are moderated more out in the open, it then makes the community standards clearer to all involved.

Plus this ubiquitous demerit system at this point seems to be a bit arbitrary. Perhaps it isn't but if there is a set system for how points are given out and what infractions are worth how many points, it's not terribly obvious. A bit of transparency on all of the standards that have been agreed to by the moderators would probably be helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
I am growing rather weary of being told that this is a "culture issue not a moderator issue" on one hand, and on the other hand being told (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showp...7&postcount=19) that it's the moderators who set the tone of the culture and that we play favorites by tacitly agreeing with the passive-aggressive people (no, Raven doesn't say it in those words, but I am fluent enough in English to re-phrase something someone else wrote in my own words).
I'm only speaking to what I'm saying. I don't speak for Raven despite the fact that we often agree on things.

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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
As for Joreth "not being acknowledged" about the child-free thing: first of all, it was not being ignored. I don't recall any requirement that people have to specifically address having read someone else's post(s) before making their own post. I often respond to a post early in a thread before reading the rest of the posts in that thread and I do not expect someone who said the same thing later or made a counterpoint to the thing I replied to rendering my post superfluous to jump down my throat and accuse me of not paying attention to them because I answered in the conversation without reading THEIR post. That is exactly what happened with Derbylicious' post and she was under no obligation to preface her post with "I read everything Joreth and Ceoli said and this is still how I feel". It's a very narcissistic attitude to take, getting bent out of shape because a few people didn't go out of their way to read and address everything everyone else said before briefly chiming in with their own point of view (however "oppressive" that POV might seem). Furthermore, I corrected Derby's reasoning without getting verbally assaultive and she conceded to my point before Joreth even posted her tantrum, which tells me at the very least that Joreth isn't really interested in what others have to say or what was written about a topic while she was not in the room, but only in yelling at people who she perceives to be against her for reasons real or otherwise.

Nope, nobody is under any obligation at all nor did I claim they were. But that doesn't mean a person can't express frustration for having to address the same point over and over again in the thread. If they haven't read the thread, they enter such discussions at their own risk. As I've said before, my main issue isn't specifically with Joreth's post and how it was moderated though I did share my thoughts on it. Truth be told, I probably would have moderated the post as well, though not blocked it or issued demerits (the whole points based system makes me feel like I'm in junior high). And technically speaking, Joreth was probably writing her response when you posted yours and Derby's reply, so it probably wasn't on the thread at the time she was replying...a quirk of this board system.

And I'm just as tired of it as you are. Yet again, the same shit over and over again. And perhaps I'm overly paranoid, I don't know. But it often feels like most of the blame gets thrown at posters like myself, Raven and Joreth.
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  #55  
Old 03-08-2010, 11:59 PM
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redpepper redpepper is offline
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
We all have other issues in real life. However, when I post something on this forum that has bothered or offended someone and they make that known to me, I at least extend that person the courtesy of engaging that issue with the person. It may be just to defend that point, but I will never dismiss their issue and/or accuse them of "creating negativity" for having problems with what I've said. Mono has often dismissed such issues in that very way, which is why it was easy to assume that he was doing the very same thing in the post in question. I often see that courtesy demanded but not extended. Everyone's free to respond or not respond however they like. And I'm free to have my opinion of that.
yes you are free to have that opinion. My opinion of Mono is that he is requesting information in order to understand someone else... I read it differently than "demand." I also have the opinion that he writes posts that make it obvious that he doesn't want to be challenge or have a debate and that he is not interested in continuing conversations sometimes.
Possibly because he is not interested in investing that much into the conversation? *shrug* I know the man though... in real life this may make more sense. He does tend to need time to think things through first before talking. I'm sorry if this is seen as being demanding or passive aggressive or whatever. I don't know, I'm not him, perhaps it is. I do know him very well however....

I again think this comes down to communication styles myself. I have noticed a huge change in how I "talk" to people on here now that I see it that way. I like to be more curious first before deciding what my opinion is... I like to try and think things through with my heart and empathize before thinking with my head.

I feel like I've said that a million times.... I don't think anyone is listening really. Or maybe they think what I say is bullshit... now I'm talking to myself.

It's really too bad that people are not jiving with this forum. I hope they find what they are looking for. I don't think everyone can fit everywhere anyways. I don't fit with other poly forums/groups/live journals and whatever out there in cyber land, and I am okay with that. The poly community is growing and changing and expanding to bring in all kinds of differing views. I am trying to be open to all of it and find what works for me... not try and cram myself into an existing space has not worked for me in the past. I think I have talked enough on that on here already for those who heard my ranting a few months back when I didn't even want to identify as poly because it involved too much of a swinger life style for my liking... I adjusted and accepted and understand more and have grown. All this from listening, telling my story and from others asking out of curiosity and empathy what is going on for me. I felt like I was respected for being on a path of self discovery. This is what I needed and what works for me. Perhaps if this forum isn't working for people they should take a break and reassess what it is that they are looking for? Maybe that would help.
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  #56  
Old 03-09-2010, 07:21 AM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
All this from listening, telling my story and from others asking out of curiosity and empathy what is going on for me. I felt like I was respected for being on a path of self discovery. This is what I needed and what works for me. Perhaps if this forum isn't working for people they should take a break and reassess what it is that they are looking for? Maybe that would help.
What helps me is clearly expressing my point of view on things from my experiences and relating them to the issues at hand since I cannot assume what other people's experiences are. In my own path of discovery, it became pretty clear that if I spoke about it on this forum it then leads to people making all sorts of assumptions about me that I then have to spend more time dispelling every single time I form an opinion about something. I'm sorry, but regardless of intentions of empathy, the result is fairly selective. What it tends to feel like is that this forum does not jive with clear honest expression. Not the other way around. Though the vice versa is probably being created out of fatigue.

I find it interesting that there is this huge resistance to even bothering to examine how that can be unwelcoming to people. Ah well. I shouldn't be surprised.
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  #57  
Old 03-09-2010, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
What helps me is clearly expressing my point of view on things from my experiences and relating them to the issues at hand since I cannot assume what other people's experiences are. In my own path of discovery, it became pretty clear that if I spoke about it on this forum it then leads to people making all sorts of assumptions about me that I then have to spend more time dispelling every single time I form an opinion about something. I'm sorry, but regardless of intentions of empathy, the result is fairly selective. What it tends to feel like is that this forum does not jive with clear honest expression. Not the other way around. Though the vice versa is probably being created out of fatigue.

I find it interesting that there is this huge resistance to even bothering to examine how that can be unwelcoming to people. Ah well. I shouldn't be surprised.
I hear you Ceoli. I have felt like that too. I have come to expect that not everyone is going to get me just as I don't get everyone. I have decided to back away before I invest too much in understanding or being understood. This is what I think creates the negative atmosphere. Too much investment in being undertood. I don't see it as much of a negative atmosphere so much as a differing in communication and ways of being in the world. That can change even with the topic.
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  #58  
Old 03-09-2010, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
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In my own path of discovery, it became pretty clear that if I spoke about it on this forum it then leads to people making all sorts of assumptions about me that I then have to spend more time dispelling every single time I form an opinion about something.
Yes, I agree, Ceoli - I have had similar experiences with online forums and opinions formed about me by others. At some point you just run out of energy to try to defend yourself or to try to portray yourself as even reasonable.

I came to the conclusion that there are always going to be those who are going to not "get me" or "where I am coming from", and are going to form their own opinions. After a reasonable amount of back and forth debate with them at some point you need to just walk away, otherwise you go mad.

Personally, I appreciate the viewpoints that you provide here. I don't always agree with them, but that doesn't mean that I can't respect them and appreciate them - you make me think, and that is a good thing.
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  #59  
Old 03-10-2010, 12:40 AM
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I guess I just don't waste a lot of time in trying to dispel the opinions that others get of me online.

It takes WAY too much time and I simply don't HAVE that amount of free time available.

Not so much that I don't care, I just have too many things higher on my list of priorities and therefore-that one isn't important enough to warrant spending time on it. When I have time, I need to put that time into things that promote the more personally important details in my life...
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  #60  
Old 03-13-2010, 06:24 AM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
I am growing rather weary of being told that this is a "culture issue not a moderator issue" on one hand, and on the other hand being told (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showp...7&postcount=19) that it's the moderators who set the tone of the culture and that we play favorites by tacitly agreeing with the passive-aggressive people.
I'll offer up here that anybody who believes that either hasn't been around long enough or is simply ignoring what's going on. I've been gone for a while, yes, though I doubt things have changed a great deal in my absence. The moderating guidelines were established to squelch egregious bad behaviors and little more--people are still allowed (and expected) to behave as people. That means there will be folks reading extraneous stuff into messages--and I've seen examples of that in this thread by the folks decrying such--and behaving as foolishly or pompously or annoyingly or human as anybody can expect in face-to-face settings.

So, while passive-aggressive snark can get somebody booted, not all passive-aggressive behavior is targeted. Just as not everybody does relationships well, not everybody does serious discussion well. One can rail against it or simply deal with it. One can disagree without behaving disagreeably.

Here's something that I think is important to keep in mind: this site has always been about allowing people to be people--and that means some members won't get along with others and some people will always be difficult to deal with. The discussions won't progress in any specific manner, even with obvious derailments getting removed.

Furthermore, the mod crew won't be moderating things in any fashion that everybody--or any given person--will agree with. Anybody who can't deal with that is welcome to find forums elsewhere that are fit better with personal preferences. There's no harm nor foul in going elsewhere.

The established bias in moderating is to keep people participating if at all possible. A post can get deleted without an infraction being assigned. Warnings are available on many types of infractions so that the member can continue to participate without accruing points toward banishment. That bias extends to everybody, despite spurious claims to favoritism.

Just so ya know.
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