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  #101  
Old 09-15-2011, 08:34 PM
marksbabygirl marksbabygirl is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
Cindie and mbg, thanks for being open about sharing your biases about bi men. Bi biases, heh.
Yeah, that was difficult to post. Because it IS a bias.


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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
Second of all, interesting that mbg thinks of bi men as weak because of their craving for gay sex. Of course, being penetrated in our society is seen as womanly. And women are understood in the patriarchal culture (6000 years and still going strong) to be weak and second class. Since we have vaginas that enjoy being penetrated, penetration must equal weakness and being second class. (This flies in the face of the manly Spartan warrior culture of old, where MM sex was considered superior, and women were married only for procreation.)
I don't think of submissive/bi as weak. Its interesting that you took my bias (tee hee, now I'm going to giggle about that) of bi men as a position that I think bi = weak. I don't think bi = weak anymore than I think submissive = weak.

And strangely enough, I think gay men are fucking HOT.

But the line between bi/submissive gets blurred for me with men AND women, and I don't find submissive men sexually attractive. On the other hand - when I'm in a mood, its then that I wish I was fully Domme because my sadistic side is out in force


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Of course, this leads men to not allow themselves to enjoy the prostate stimulation available to them from being anally penetrated, even in masturbation or with their female partners, much less with men.
I like anal play. With men, with women. I have enjoyed it with my husband.

Thanks for this discussion. Its helped me clarify in my OWN head where that comes from.
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  #102  
Old 09-15-2011, 08:40 PM
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But the line between bi/submissive gets blurred for me with men AND women, and I don't find submissive men sexually attractive.
I'm one of those biamorous guys who isn't into role-playing in general, and especially not with regard to dom / sub. We do exist! I'm neither a top nor a bottom with a man or a woman. I'm just River. I like kissing, cuddling, ... and giving and receiving pleasure. I don't think of any of this stuff in terms of who is on top in a figurative sense, and am VERY willing to have her literally on top ... or him wherever he'd like to position himself, so long as he doesn't hurt me.
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  #103  
Old 09-15-2011, 08:51 PM
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I was just thinking that it may well be that some of the women here who are attracted to bi (particularly biamorous) men are attracted, in part, because we tend to be more emotionally androgynous. By which I mean that we tend to embody the full range of human emotional responsiveness. Many women desire a quality of companionship which many or most men cannot offer, simply because they are caught up in lots of masculinity training (and perhaps also some biological traits).

. . . we're just what the women generally want. We're kind, sensitive, thoughtful, tender, vulnerable, feeling..., but also tough and rugged and "masculine" when the situation calls for it.
Well, that's interesting, but I have known many guys who met your description of being in touch with their emotional lives, and were totally straight. But again, I often hung out in circles that are either "New Age-y" or focused on personal growth, the human potential movement, 12-step programs, etc. I think the more people look inward, the more expansive they become emotionally, so their sexual orientations doesn't really come into play in that regard. So, I think straight men get a bad rap in that area, as if they're all insensitive cave men. So not true!

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Since we have vaginas that enjoy being penetrated, penetration must equal weakness and being second class. (This flies in the face of the manly Spartan warrior culture of old, where MM sex was considered superior, and women were married only for procreation.)
Slight tangent:

To fulfill my general requirements for school, I am taking aclass right now on Ancient political thought, and the prof was talking a bit about life in Athens during Socrates' and Plato's time. She was saying that while it's well-known that the ancient Greek males had sexual relationships with younger men and boys, there is now some evidence coming to light that the women had similar relationships with younger females. The men and women definitely had their own communities and only came together to make babies.

In fact, the way the Greeks instilled their soldiers to fight for their country was to encourage them to become lovers with their fellow soldiers and defend that love. She said, "But before you think, wow, the Greeks were so chill and open-minded, a large part of that division was due to the men not thinking women worthy of loving relationships. They served a purpose and that was procreation." Also, the social strata was not based on wealth but by inherited position. In other words, a Greek could have lots of money, and be the wealthiest in Athens, but if he had that money as a result of work rather than inheritance, he would be considered lower class (the nouveau riche always get put down some way, right?). Then she said that either Socrates or Plato (I can't recall which) had the dream of creating a "community of women and children," as she put it, for the upper class men to procreate with so there wouldn't be any focus on whose woman or child was whose, like the lower working class would do, to focus on survival. This would keep the wealth within that upper strata of society and there would be no danger of a man having to go out and work to support a family that "belonged" to him. Interesting, indeed.
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Last edited by nycindie; 09-15-2011 at 08:54 PM.
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  #104  
Old 09-15-2011, 09:08 PM
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I don't think of submissive/bi as weak. Its interesting that you took my bias (tee hee, now I'm going to giggle about that) of bi men as a position that I think bi = weak. I don't think bi = weak anymore than I think submissive = weak.
OK. For the record, my gf's bf/"Master" is pansexual (bi being under that umbrella) and a switch. He's sub to his primary gf and Top to miss pixi.

I didn't mean to imply subs are weak. In the BDSM community, this is not so. I am talking about in the general public perception, any man that gets anally penetrated, or even orally penetrated, must be "weak and womanly."

So... yeah, it's odd that you, a sub, think bi men are always sub and therefore not attractive.

We have one male married poly couple we know rather well. The one guy is bi, or pan; he likes femmes of any gender. Definite Top. The couple are lifestyle BDSM people, complete with collar and contract.
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  #105  
Old 09-15-2011, 09:15 PM
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I think it's important to note that we who have admitted to having a bias or prejudice are expressing what our initial or general impressions are, not what we really think of an individual person. We are simply shedding light on reactionary thoughts that we know we have, but it's been stated by me and others that getting to know someone usually dissipates those thoughts and I think that's important to remember.
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  #106  
Old 09-15-2011, 09:19 PM
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... I have known many guys who met your description of being in touch with their emotional lives, and were totally straight. But again, I often hung out in circles that are either "New Age-y" or focused on personal growth, the human potential movement, 12-step programs, etc. I think the more people look inward, the more expansive they become emotionally, so their sexual orientations doesn't really come into play in that regard. So, I think straight men get a bad rap in that area, as if they're all insensitive cave men. So not true!
As I see it, being one of the letters in LGBT --[or LGBTQ(eer)]--makes a great many of us "look inward" quite a lot. We question all kinds of socially approved notions about gender, sex, love, relationship... more than the average non-LGBT/Q person is apt to do. We do so in large part because we've felt excluded, or because we had hidden fearful in the closet (with milage varying here depending on both age and geography), or because we've not fit in (we're misfits).... Emotional pain often becomes the root and
cause of both inquiry into the world's norms but also into our own values, hopes, fears, desires.... So I do think, for these reasons and others, that bi men are -- on average -- more rounded and whole (in the androgyny sense). That is, they tend to embody both masculine and feminine traits in abundance. But this is just a game of averages. I'm well aware of the existence of hetero men who are also very well rounded. (One of them is my cuddle buddy!)
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  #107  
Old 09-15-2011, 09:29 PM
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To fulfill my general requirements for school, I am taking aclass right now on Ancient political thought, and...
Yes, Athenian society was horribly sexist and classist. Their "democracy" was -- like early American "democracy" -- of by and for the bearers of power: men of a certain social class. These were also the official creators of "culture".

Sound familiar?
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  #108  
Old 09-15-2011, 09:35 PM
marksbabygirl marksbabygirl is offline
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So... yeah, it's odd that you, a sub, think bi men are always sub and therefore not attractive.
I don't play with absolutes... "always" "never" those words don't work for me.

I have a feeling if I continue to try to explain myself, it will just get less clear.

I will leave this conversation with these points:

- I have had a reaction to a male who identifies as bi on a dating site; I tend to shy away.
-Somewhere in my head, the bi = sub line is blurred.
-Dom/sub play has been a part of my sexual activity for so long, I don't know if I would know how to respond in a *vanilla* sexual situation... although I will get to find out this weekend
-Nothing is absolute, and if I were to get to know someone who then later told me he was bi, it wouldn't affect my feelings for him.

Last but not least:

This conversation has been awesome for helping me to examine those feelings and hopefully restructure some of them
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  #109  
Old 09-15-2011, 09:51 PM
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This conversation has been awesome for helping me to examine those feelings and hopefully restructure some of them
Cool!
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  #110  
Old 09-15-2011, 10:05 PM
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-Dom/sub play has been a part of my sexual activity for so long, I don't know if I would know how to respond in a *vanilla* sexual situation... although I will get to find out this weekend
Congratulations on that opportunity!

I remember that artificially flavored "vanilla" ice cream crap that they boxed up for suburban American kids in the 70s. It was white, oderless, flavorless... and my child's mind thought of it as both "plain" and "needing chocolate syrup", or raspberry, or....

Plain, white, colorless, flavorless, odorless, bland -- that's how I sometimes think the dom / sub kinky folks think of the sex we vanilla people have. How's that for admitting my own ignorant bias? I've never been tied up, roped down, whipped, chained, peed on, or whatever the dom/sub people do in their dripping black torchlit basements. (Joking!)

Still, I'm excited about the possibility of her on top. Hopping up and down on me. (Can I SAY that in here?)

Anyway, one fine day I had REAL vanilla ice cream. I and some other kids made it from scratch, using actual freaking vanilla beans. No one with a sense of taste and smell could possibly find such a flavor lacking in the exotic!

I demand that anyone reading here who has not smelled actual vanilla beans to run out to Whole Foods and get some just to smell it!

Then give them to someone who has an ice cream maker thingie. Or buy one. And get to work. You'll never think of vanilla as "plain" again. I promise.

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Last edited by River; 09-15-2011 at 10:39 PM.
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