Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > General Poly Discussions

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 01-26-2012, 11:18 PM
nycindie's Avatar
nycindie nycindie is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 7,180
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott View Post
It's a form of non monogamy. For that reason alone, I think it should be there.
No it's not. Non-partnered, single people partake of prostitution as well. So, sex as a profession is just basically a service provided... to anyone, not SOLELY partnered people as an alternative to monogamy. It is not a form of monogamy nor of non-monogamy, and is definitely outside the realm of intimate relationships. If a partnered person avails him/herself of the sex trade, then that person would be non-monogamous as an individual choice he or she made, BUT by itself, prostitution is not a form of non-monogamy per se. It is a business transaction. If we include that, then might as well include buying dildos as a form of non-monogamy.
__________________
The world opens up... when you do.

Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me. ~Bryan Ferry
"Love is that condition in which another person's happiness is essential to your own." ~Robert Heinlein

Last edited by nycindie; 01-26-2012 at 11:22 PM. Reason: fixed typo
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 01-26-2012, 11:23 PM
Scott's Avatar
Scott Scott is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: near Toronto, Canada -.-
Posts: 237
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by km34 View Post
Ok, I understand it being included in non-monogomy in general. My argument is that it would fall under other categories instead of having it's own category, I suppose.
Hm. Why do you think this should happen? Personally, I admit that I kind of like it having its own category, if only because sex work is so maligned in our society. I think it deserves to be discussed, and burying it in other categories won't really do that. I recently researched and discussed this issue in another poly forum that, perhaps because of this, decided to remove me from their group. During the course of my research, I came up with 2 movies that discuss the issue. Here are the previews:
‪X 2011 Trailer‬

Student Services - Official Trailer

I haven't seen either movie yet. I have the opportunity to see one of them as it's on Netflix which I have access to, it's just that there's a dark side to this subject, and it's something that's very hard for me to deal with. I probably would have never even researched the subject if I hadn't met someone who has been (and perhaps still is) in the business. But I really liked her and I wanted to understand more about this issue so I did.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 01-26-2012, 11:46 PM
Scott's Avatar
Scott Scott is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: near Toronto, Canada -.-
Posts: 237
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
It's a form of non monogamy. For that reason alone, I think it should be there.
No it's not.
Not everyone agrees with your stance there, as the Poly Map clearly includes this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Non-partnered, single people partake of prostitution as well.
That is true. However, I'm talking about the sex workers themselves, not who they're with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
So, sex as a profession is just basically a service provided... to anyone, not SOLELY partnered people as an alternative to monogamy.
I think that when it comes to sex, it may not always be so easy to call it simply a service. There was a play in Toronto called "Love is a poverty you can sell". I never saw the play, but the title got to me. You could say that people can express love in many ways, but few doubt that many express it when they have sex. I'm fairly sure that the term "make love" was created because of this. In this world, especially for men, getting to the point where you can find a woman who would like to have sex with you can be a challenge, especially if you're not upwardly mobile. Paying for it can thus seem to be an attractive option. I myself did so, the first time I ever had sex, at 20. I never did so again, in large part because I felt it was very dangerous to mix up money with love; you run the risk of being with people who want your money, not you, and I never thought that was a good idea. Nevertheless, I can't say that I haven't been tempted, to the point that I even asked someone I knew if she knew someone who did sex work (she didn't). And then, in a poly meet, I met someone; after getting to know her a bit, I found out that she did some sex work, atleast part time. The high end, not something I could afford, but it once again got me to think about this aspect of non monogamy. I felt that I'd fallen in love with her. At the same time, I felt afraid. I actually had a dream of her. In the dream, I saw her a woman on the ground level from high up in an apartment building. I knew it was her and that she was approaching. I was afraid for my money; I didn't have much cash on me but I had plastic. I actually told this woman my dream, she never responded and now that I've been removed from that group, I think it's safe to say that our relationship, such as it was, has ended. Ever since I had the dream, I've been thinking of what this dream meant. I've come to the conclusion that in a way, for many (including myself to some extent), money is an expression of what you're owed in life. It can be seen as favours that you can call upon. It can even be seen as your very soul. I was afraid of losing myself to her. In the ending, I decided that I could no longer ignore this. The fact of the matter was, this wasn't just about her. As I mentioned in another thread (the porn thread perhaps), I've definitely seen porn, and there are sex workers involved there as well. There is a saying: "‪All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.‬" So I'm trying to do something, with my writing. Maybe one day I'll go further then this, do some investigating like the type in the Millenium series of films. But one step at a time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
It is not a form of monogamy nor of non-monogamy, and is definitely outside the realm of intimate relationships.
I wouldn't be so certain about that. People can develop intimate relationships with their dentists; I think it's safe to say that they can definitely develop between a sex worker and his or her client.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
If a partnered person avails him/herself of the sex trade, then that person would be non-monogamous as an individual choice he or she made, BUT by itself, prostitution is not a form of non-monogamy per se. It is a business transaction. If we include that, then might as well include buying dildos as a form of non-monogamy.
I don't believe sex workers should be compared to dildos.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 01-26-2012, 11:59 PM
nycindie's Avatar
nycindie nycindie is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 7,180
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
It is not a form of monogamy nor of non-monogamy, and is definitely outside the realm of intimate relationships.
I wouldn't be so certain about that. People can develop intimate relationships with their dentists; I think it's safe to say that they can definitely develop between a sex worker and his or her client.
Oh, I knew you or someone would say that. I'm not so stupid to think that intimate relationships cannot grow out of business relationships, but that just simply means it is an added quality to the interactions between the person selling and the person buying. The actual transaction of selling sex is.. well, I'll correct myself here, as it may be intimate (by some people's definitions), but it is not a romantic relationship and it isn't based on love or developing relationships to grow together but on business/making money. You can always say that in some cases, this or that can happen, but in looking at prostitution as a whole, it is a business in the modern world. Now, sacred temple prostitutes were a different story.

You can say the prostitutes themselves are non-monogamous by virtue of the fact that they have sex with multiple people; in some instances, I'm sure you could also say they are serial monogamists (if they do not have a relationship in their personal life and have one customer right after another). However, I was referring specifically to the practice of sex as commerce, not the practitioners or sellers themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott View Post
I don't believe sex workers should be compared to dildos.
Oh, please. I wasn't talking about the people, but of the business transaction. You buy something to get off in both cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott View Post
In this world, especially for men, getting to the point where you can find a woman who would like to have sex with you can be a challenge, especially if you're not upwardly mobile. Paying for it can thus seem to be an attractive option. I myself did so, the first time I ever had sex, at 20. I never did so again, in large part because I felt it was very dangerous to mix up money with love; you run the risk of being with people who want your money, not you, and I never thought that was a good idea. Nevertheless, I can't say that I haven't been tempted, to the point that I even asked someone I knew if she knew someone who did sex work...
To be honest, you seem a tad obsessed with the whole idea of sex for money and how/if it ties into poly relationships, especially considering that you say you discussed this on another group and were banned for harping on it. You also seem really focused on the notion that women want men to support them financially. So, are you here just to push buttons? If so, that'll get old really quickly.
__________________
The world opens up... when you do.

Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me. ~Bryan Ferry
"Love is that condition in which another person's happiness is essential to your own." ~Robert Heinlein

Last edited by nycindie; 01-27-2012 at 12:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 01-27-2012, 12:42 AM
km34 km34 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 624
Default

Ok... I had all of this typed out and then my internet died, but I'm back! lol My thoughts on all of this sex work/non monogamy business...

I mostly agree with nycindie. I don't think it needs to be included. Whether it is considered ethical non-monogamy (a person in an open relationship hiring a prostitute with the permission of the SO(s)) or unethical non-monogamy (a person hiring a prostitute WITHOUT permission, i.e. cheating), it isn't a RELATIONSHIP. A relationship (to me) goes two ways. Even if a person develops feelings for their sex worker (prostitute, porn star, phone sex operator, or other) it is still a business transaction. If the feelings are mutual, then it shouldn't be considered sex work anymore. It should be two people who have feelings for one another having sex and one of those people helping to support the other. I wouldn't sell sex to anyone I love, but I would let them help me with my bills if absolutely necessary with the understanding that they are doing it for ME not for SEX.

If you did want to include it, I still thing it would fall under another category... Non-monogamy in the form of cheating, non-monogamy in the form of a sexually open relationship, etc.

@Scott - you do seem VERY focused on sex work. Maybe you should find a group who shares that interest instead of trying to include commercial sex acts in a different group (in this case non-monogamy). I'm a former and probably future social work student so I have met many former prostitutes. Some have been perfectly satisfied with their lives, but MOST have felt forced into the situation or feel like once in they couldn't escape for some reason or another. It isn't something that I am particularly interested in discussing, and it really isn't something that most people WANT to learn about unless they are interested in getting involved in the business somehow (either as a customer or a service provider).
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 01-27-2012, 12:58 AM
Scott's Avatar
Scott Scott is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: near Toronto, Canada -.-
Posts: 237
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
It is not a form of monogamy nor of non-monogamy, and is definitely outside the realm of intimate relationships.
I wouldn't be so certain about that. People can develop intimate relationships with their dentists; I think it's safe to say that they can definitely develop between a sex worker and his or her client.
Oh, I knew you or someone would say that. I'm not so stupid to think that intimate relationships cannot grow out of business relationships, but that just simply means it is an added quality to the interactions between the person selling and the person buying. The actual transaction of selling sex is.. well, I'll correct myself here, as it may be intimate (by some people's definitions), but it is not a romantic relationship and it isn't based on love or developing relationships to grow together but on business/making money. You can always say that in some cases, this or that can happen, but in looking at prostitution as a whole, it is a business in the modern world. Now, sacred temple prostitutes were a different story.
Indeed. I wouldn't be surprised if the equivalent of sacred temple sex workers exist somewhere even today, but I haven't seen evidence of this. Anyway, I think a question really has to be asked here; why do people (and by people, I mean mostly men) pay for sex workers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
You can say the prostitutes themselves are non-monogamous by virtue of the fact that they have sex with multiple people;
Yes, that's what I'm saying. By the way, I'm not sure if you know this, but people who sell sexual services for money prefer the term sex workers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
in some instances, I'm sure you could also say they are serial monogamists (if they do not have a relationship in their personal life and have one customer right after another).
I suppose, although because of the fact that customers can frequently be repeat, I think it would stretch the definition to the breaking point, if not beyond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
However, I was referring specifically to the practice of sex as commerce, not the practitioners or sellers themselves.
Yes, and I think this is the problem; we refer to it as a service, and forget that there are people who are providing it. It's something that I think people forget when they demonize the practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott View Post
I don't believe sex workers should be compared to dildos.
Oh, please. I wasn't talking about the people, but of the business transaction. You buy something to get off in both cases.
Again, I think that this separation of what you are buying isn't helping anyone. You're buying services from a person in one case; in the other you're just purchasing a soul-less object.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott View Post
In this world, especially for men, getting to the point where you can find a woman who would like to have sex with you can be a challenge, especially if you're not upwardly mobile. Paying for it can thus seem to be an attractive option. I myself did so, the first time I ever had sex, at 20. I never did so again, in large part because I felt it was very dangerous to mix up money with love; you run the risk of being with people who want your money, not you, and I never thought that was a good idea. Nevertheless, I can't say that I haven't been tempted, to the point that I even asked someone I knew if she knew someone who did sex work...
To be honest, you seem a tad obsessed with the whole idea of sex for money and how/if it ties into relationships, especially considering that you say you discussed this on another group and were banned for harping on it.
It's a subject that I found to be worth my attention due to the factors that I've already mentioned, or I wouldn't be discussing it. I mentioned the fact that I was removed from another poly group to point out how controversial this subject still is in modern day society, even within the polyamory movement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
You also seem really focused on the notion that women want men to support them financially.
I'm giving my impression based on my personal experiences. Ofcourse, there are women who earn more then their partners, and some who are even the sole bread winners. I'm just saying what seems to be the norm, but if you have statistics or even anecdotal evidence showing otherwise, by all means, present them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
So, are you here just to push buttons?
No. That would suggest that I like being removed/banned from places. I don't. I'm just want to talk about things that matter to me. The fact that these things are controversial is just the way it is.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 01-27-2012, 01:09 AM
Scott's Avatar
Scott Scott is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: near Toronto, Canada -.-
Posts: 237
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by km34 View Post
Ok... I had all of this typed out and then my internet died, but I'm back! lol My thoughts on all of this sex work/non monogamy business...

I mostly agree with nycindie. I don't think it needs to be included. Whether it is considered ethical non-monogamy (a person in an open relationship hiring a prostitute with the permission of the SO(s)) or unethical non-monogamy (a person hiring a prostitute WITHOUT permission, i.e. cheating), it isn't a RELATIONSHIP.
Personally, I think that if sex is involved, it can definitely be thought of as a relationship to some, which is why I think Franklin included it in his Poly Map. We don't all have to agree on this, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by km34 View Post
A relationship (to me) goes two ways. Even if a person develops feelings for their sex worker (prostitute, porn star, phone sex operator, or other) it is still a business transaction.
I think that most relationships do go 2 ways (unless you count people who have a crush on some movie star). That being said, there are many cases where one end is much more interested then the other. Furthermore, you can have a relationship with someone you work for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by km34 View Post
If the feelings are mutual, then it shouldn't be considered sex work anymore. It should be two people who have feelings for one another having sex and one of those people helping to support the other.
Makes sense. However, I think the distinction between these 2 states of affairs (feelings/no feelings) can get mighty gray sometimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by km34 View Post
I wouldn't sell sex to anyone I love, but I would let them help me with my bills if absolutely necessary with the understanding that they are doing it for ME not for SEX.
Yes, I understand where you're going there. I'm a guy so it's highly unlikely I'd ever be in the same situation, but I'd want to do the same if I was ever in such a situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by km34 View Post
If you did want to include it, I still think it would fall under another category... Non-monogamy in the form of cheating, non-monogamy in the form of a sexually open relationship, etc. @Scott - you do seem VERY focused on sex work. Maybe you should find a group who shares that interest instead of trying to include commercial sex acts in a different group (in this case non-monogamy).
Well, Franklin already included it.. and because of all the cultural attention on this particular line of work, I think it's a good thing. However, it may be that I and even Franklin change our minds on this.. who knows. As to finding another group, I suppose that's possible.. as a person who identifies as polyamorous, I just wanted to share my views here, but perhaps they're not wanted here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by km34 View Post
I'm a former and probably future social work student so I have met many former prostitutes. Some have been perfectly satisfied with their lives, but MOST have felt forced into the situation or feel like once in they couldn't escape for some reason or another.
Ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by km34 View Post
It isn't something that I am particularly interested in discussing, and it really isn't something that most people WANT to learn about unless they are interested in getting involved in the business somehow (either as a customer or a service provider).
How about as someone who has cared for one or someone who'd like to research the subject? Anyway, I never forced you or anyone else to discuss anything with me. I just brought up the subject and responded to the responses.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 01-27-2012, 01:14 AM
km34 km34 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 624
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott View Post
How about as someone who has cared for one or someone who'd like to research the subject? Anyway, I never forced you or anyone else to discuss anything with me. I just brought up the subject and responded to the responses.
That would be another reason to want to learn about it. And I still think of this as a discussion on non-monogamy, not on sex work in general. When I said I wasn't interested in learning more about it, I meant the day-to-day practices and such.

Also, when I said relationship, I meant a romantic relationship. I have relationships of varying degrees with everyone I work with, for, and around but it doesn't make it romantic. I would think it is much the same for sex workers.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 01-27-2012, 01:24 AM
km34 km34 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 624
Default

I can't get the quote to do what I want (I'm a bit of a dunce when it comes to technology stuff lol), but based off of nycindie saying sex workers could be thought of as non-monogamous since they have sex with different people I was wondering...

Would most sex workers identify themselves as poly/non-monogamous (assuming they were aware of the options)? I doubt it. Most I've met would love to find "the one" and get married and do that whole monogamy thing. Having sex with person after person is a JOB for them, not a LIFESTYLE. I'm not counting them as a product or forgetting that they are people, I'm counting what they do as a service and not a personal interaction.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 01-27-2012, 01:28 AM
nycindie's Avatar
nycindie nycindie is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 7,180
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott View Post
By the way, I'm not sure if you know this, but people who sell sexual services for money prefer the term sex workers.
You don't need to educate me, dear. You have no idea of my background. I do have some familiarity with this arena, but that is all I will say. Furthermore, I see prostitution as one specific "job description" within the realm of sex workers, so chill. I don't really need to be PC for anyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott View Post
It's something that I think people forget when they demonize the practice.
I wasn't demonizing, so I don't appreciate the implication. Nowhere did I say anything negative about sellers of sex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott View Post
Again, I think that this separation of what you are buying isn't helping anyone. You're buying services from a person in one case; in the other you're just purchasing a soul-less object.
Why should this discussion help anyone? People are entitled to their opinions and to express them. I think the sex act as commodity is directly comparable to a dildo being sold. That is not to say that the people who sell sex and the people who sell dildos are not human beings. But to be able to sell the act of sex separates that act from the person and any "soul" involvement, much the same as many people who can have recreational sex without emotional attachment. I see selling a fuck the same as selling a dildo. So, shoot me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott View Post
I'm giving my impression based on my personal experiences. Ofcourse, there are women who earn more then their partners, and some who are even the sole bread winners. I'm just saying what seems to be the norm, but if you have statistics or even anecdotal evidence showing otherwise, by all means, present them.
I don't really feel the need to present any data to prove a point here; this conversation has already become tedious for me. Suffice it to say that it sounds like your experiences have been limited. I'm probably much older than you and have more experiences to draw from. In my own personal life, most women I know, including myself, do not seek out a man who makes more money than they do, nor expect a man to support them. And valuing their own independence has nothing to do with how much money a woman makes. I am just barely surviving financially right now, and my bf is poorer than me. I don't care how much he makes, and I never base my attraction to someone on that. In fact, another guy I'm interested in is very unemployed right now. I don't care one iota. I've never really known many women who have that as a criteria. 'Nuff said, I'm done.
__________________
The world opens up... when you do.

Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me. ~Bryan Ferry
"Love is that condition in which another person's happiness is essential to your own." ~Robert Heinlein
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
dynamics, map, relationship map, sex, sex workers

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:30 PM.