Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > General Poly Discussions

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 01-28-2010, 09:20 PM
Ravenesque's Avatar
Ravenesque Ravenesque is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 297
Default Prove it

The implication of this thread that TNG groups are being formed in response to marginalization within the "general" community seems a bit narrow and uninformed in view. Further I did not see such a claim on the CPN TNG website.

I do find the assessment of young people and their experiences within this thread very interesting and links between these valuations and the creation of TNG groups are not hard to miss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
First, I would suggest that putting responsibility on a marginalized group to somehow "un-marginalize" themselves by teaching everyone else how not to marginalize them tends not to work. I've found that the best way to succeed in being more inclusive is for the dominant group to *first* do some hard self-examination.
It is disconcerting that there seems to be a push here for those who feel their needs are not being met through one medium or another within the poly community to prove that there is an actual issue. Criticism is also being launched at those who are creating spaces that fit their needs as others have done. How is this different from any other poly group being started? What is the bias here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
Next, if I was doing a training on this, I would ask the participants to to make a list of all of their assumptions and perceptions of people who are young and poly. This is often a hard thing to accomplish because people can be very unwilling to admit what assumptions they carry (even to themselves). This is a hard process that has to involve some brutal honesty.
It is a hard thing to accomplish. I've seen poly groups unwilling to examine long held stereotypes and assumptions about various groups of poly people (and people generally). In the midst of that attitude seeking to open the group to include a large variety of polyamorous people is difficult because it isn't believed that there is a need backed by whatever prejudice. I am not sure if this is what some describe as "being set in their ways."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
Niches are not always a bad thing. People are diverse and have diverse needs and there's nothing wrong with gathering together around common needs or tastes or identities and to celebrate that. However, when a community that contains a broad range of identities makes that space welcoming to some identities and not to others, or somehow operates with incorrect assumptions about the identities of others, then groups are created out of a need for space to just be heard rather than a desire to gather and celebrate their identities. In that case, there are larger, less healthy things going on in that community.
Indeed and it's actually been stated on this forum that hey, being inclusive to all polyamorous people is not realistic and that's the end of the story. Everyone's needs will not be met in any given group.

So I'm surprised that some who have stated those very opinions now seem baffled by and are now negatively characterizing groups aimed at particular groups of poly people who are trying to address needs not being met elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I've found in issues of marginalization, it's generally more useful to talk to the people who *aren't* at the table rather than the people who who do feel included.

So it might be useful to ask the question, "How can we bring more people to the table to talk about it?"
I agree. The response I am seeing to this is the rather circular "well I can't figure it out unless you show me." A rationale that isn't true and again is not outreach or a meeting in a middle, rather it is a "you have to come to me" approach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quila View Post
I used to be a very active member of my city's BDSM "community" and I found exactly the cliquism GS was talking about. They also had an online forum, and I always found that any new people who didn't meet their criteria was ostracised and made to feel like a freak. That's exactly what you don't need when you're coming out of the closet and you already feel like a weirdo.
You describe nearly to the letter a past experience I had with one particular polyamory forum in New York State. Going back to the concept of self examination, and the technique of listing assumptions and stereotypes and seeking to include, there is no real solution when the clique doesn't actually want to include different kinds of poly people and are unwilling to examine challenges to long held assumptions. Those who practice polyamory differently from their version of polyamory are just plum out of luck.

I do wonder though. If polys should accept that the groups available don't meet their needs (because inclusiveness for all polys isn't realistic) and creating groups that do meet their needs is a negative and self-marginalizing, what kind of atmospheres are being suggested for these polyamorous folk? And what light does this place those who have created poly groups of varied perspectives?

Quote:
Originally Posted by starlight1 View Post
I sought out a place that was non-marginalised and open minded. And indeed one of the reasons i searched out polyamory too, as that seems to me an open-minded or at least open-people idea.
I felt similarly. But I realize that not all poly people are open-people. Some are majorly closed and even prejudiced. There are a myriad of people who practice polyamory with all the same flaws as anyone else. It is just one aspect that determines compatibility even as friends.

Sometimes people must create the open spaces they wish to see in the world when they do not exist.

~Raven~
__________________
Are you a polyamorist or non-monogamous individual between the ages 18-35? Are you located in New York State or the Northeast?
Join us at The Network, a social and socially aware network which connects young polys and progressive polys of all ages.



~Open up your mind and let me step inside.
Rest your weary head and let your heart decide. It's so easy.
When you know the rules.
It's so easy. All you have to do is fall in love.
Play the game.
Everybody play the game of love. Yeah...~

Last edited by Ravenesque; 01-28-2010 at 10:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 01-28-2010, 09:33 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: London, UK
Posts: 900
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post
The implication of this thread that TNG groups are being formed in response to marginalization within the "general" community seems a bit narrow and uninformed in view. Further I did not see such a claim on the CPN TNG website.

I do find the assessment of young people and their experiences within this thread very interesting and links between these valuations and the creation of TNG groups are not hard to miss.


My apologies for that. I had said in the other thread that the group was a place for people who may feel marginalized in other poly communities as a response to the implication that it was a group forming to create an exclusive small community and narrow dating pool. It really wasn't telling the whole story.

However, I have known people in various poly communities that have felt marginalized or not taken seriously because of their age and the assumptions that people make about them because of it.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 01-28-2010, 09:51 PM
Ravenesque's Avatar
Ravenesque Ravenesque is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 297
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
My apologies for that. I had said in the other thread that the group was a place for people who may feel marginalized in other poly communities as a response to the implication that it was a group forming to create an exclusive small community and narrow dating pool. It really wasn't telling the whole story.

However, I have known people in various poly communities that have felt marginalized or not taken seriously because of their age and the assumptions that people make about them because of it.
I'll change a little something in what I wrote:

"The implication of this thread that TNG groups are being formed solely in response to marginalization within the "general" community seems a bit narrow and uninformed in view. Further I did not see such a claim on the CPN TNG website."

This is why I said it was narrow and uninformed. And I wasn't referring to any assertion you made. I agreed with everything you stated.

As for the implication about exclusive groups, I find many of those who make such accusations along with the birds that flock with them usually commit the actions they accuse others of frequently. It's called hypocrisy and smoke-screening.

I also agree with the last part of what you said here. This thread is riddled with comments in regards to young people that I am not sure could be construed as unbiased.

~Raven~
__________________
Are you a polyamorist or non-monogamous individual between the ages 18-35? Are you located in New York State or the Northeast?
Join us at The Network, a social and socially aware network which connects young polys and progressive polys of all ages.



~Open up your mind and let me step inside.
Rest your weary head and let your heart decide. It's so easy.
When you know the rules.
It's so easy. All you have to do is fall in love.
Play the game.
Everybody play the game of love. Yeah...~

Last edited by Ravenesque; 01-28-2010 at 09:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 01-28-2010, 11:00 PM
redsirenn's Avatar
redsirenn redsirenn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Sunny CA
Posts: 293
Default

I just wanted to add something that I thought of while biking...

It really isn't that I feel "marginalized". More so, that I want something different in addition to...


RS
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 01-28-2010, 11:15 PM
PittDruid's Avatar
PittDruid PittDruid is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Pittsburgh,PA
Posts: 59
Default

I am 30 and find that the only problem I have with my local group is that they meet once a month on mondays and I work everyday during the week and can't make it.
I don't feel marginalized by my age. Mostly I feel different because I am straight, and so is my wife. I have talked to a few females in the area that are poly and they want to have nothing to do with me. They told me if my wife was bi it would be different. But my age has not been an issue.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 01-28-2010, 11:16 PM
DrunkenPorcupine's Avatar
DrunkenPorcupine DrunkenPorcupine is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 175
Default

I've felt marginalized by both the poly and "mainstream" communities because of my age. Many mono folk think I'm in "a phase" or "testing the waters". I've even had one person say that "You're not really poly, you're just... not sure what it is you want".

I've also felt marginalized by the older poly communities because my idea of healthy relationships don't include "families" and children, both things credited to me being "young and naive" apparently. Also, partly because my idea "structure" seems to be evolving. Specifically, I feel as if I'm moving away from the "primary/secondary" structure and some people seem to think this evolution is indicative of being... whatever it is they think it is.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 01-28-2010, 11:23 PM
Ravenesque's Avatar
Ravenesque Ravenesque is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 297
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by redsirenn View Post
I just wanted to add something that I thought of while biking...

It really isn't that I feel "marginalized". More so, that I want something different in addition to...


RS
I have to say that I find this a pretty profound statement. In addition to. I think it's a rather expansive and open way to view the world.

In addition to.

I will not denigrate anyone who is marginalized or place the blame of their marginalization ("the rape victim is to blame" mentality) on them. It is as valid a reason as any to jump into action addressing it in many ways such as starting groups.

However, there are people of all kinds who would like to connect with other people who share similarities and differences, experiences and perspectives on life.

In this case young polys wish to do the same. It may be in addition to existing groups they feel comfortable with or it may not because there aren't groups they feel comfortable with. What would be the purpose of begrudging young polys' right to seek and create that which meets their needs?

~Raven~
__________________
Are you a polyamorist or non-monogamous individual between the ages 18-35? Are you located in New York State or the Northeast?
Join us at The Network, a social and socially aware network which connects young polys and progressive polys of all ages.



~Open up your mind and let me step inside.
Rest your weary head and let your heart decide. It's so easy.
When you know the rules.
It's so easy. All you have to do is fall in love.
Play the game.
Everybody play the game of love. Yeah...~
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 01-28-2010, 11:50 PM
LovingRadiance's Avatar
LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Alaska
Posts: 5,172
Default

redsiren-

I choose my friends carefully as well. I socialize with many people, but I am VERY choosy about who I let "all the way in" with me.
My closest friends have been around 31 years, 21 years and 17 years respectively. They are the ones who know my whole me.
Heck-even Maca who I started dating 11 years ago, and married 10 years ago, I've known for 21 years.

It's too bad you feel like you don't have someplace that fits you-but I do understand it. I don't know that it's an age thing so much (at least not for me) but I know outside of those 3, only one of whom is "poly", one is mono in a poly relationship and the other who knows right now... there isn't really anyone I feel completely comfortable and THAT sucks. So I certainly feel for you.

I hope you DO find a community you feel like you "fit" in!
__________________
"Love As Thou Wilt"
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 01-28-2010, 11:52 PM
CielDuMatin's Avatar
CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 1,456
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenPorcupine View Post
I've also felt marginalized by the older poly communities because my idea of healthy relationships don't include "families" and children, both things credited to me being "young and naive" apparently.
I don't want a "family" or children either, but I don't think that anyone blames it on my youth or naivete (they probably find some other put-down).

See, I think that just because someone is poly doesn't mean that they have managed to shrug off all the shrouds of conventionalism - they still expect people to want certain specific things at certain points in their lives and, when you don't want that, tend to put you down in sometimes subtle, sometimes very obvious ways. I have hit similar "straight-laced" thinking as well, and I think that it is a great shame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
It's too bad you feel like you don't have someplace that fits you-but I do understand it.
...
I hope you DO find a community you feel like you "fit" in!
I echo that sentiment. There are many poly communities and online groups out there, each with their own styles of leadership and "feel" - I personally think that that is a great idea, because it most definitely isn't a case of "one size fits all". I also hope that you can find one where you feel you "fit" - but remember (and this is advice that I have given others) - if you can't find one that fits, chances are you are not alone, and starting one that you do feel you fit in with may well create a whole new vibrant community.

Luckily we don't have to "pick one" - we can join in with and take part in as many or as few online communities as we choose, taking a little from one, and a little from another, gaining benefit from what each one has to offer.
__________________
Please check out The Birdcage - an open, friendly Polyamory forum for all parts of New York State
http://www.thebirdcage.org/

"Listen, or your tongue will make you deaf." - Native American Proverb

Last edited by CielDuMatin; 01-29-2010 at 12:01 AM. Reason: should have done the multi-quote thing
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 01-28-2010, 11:55 PM
LovingRadiance's Avatar
LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Alaska
Posts: 5,172
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by quila View Post
Someone said something about the experience gained by older people having been through the trenches, and I definitely value the insight that their experience has given them. I happen to be one of the lucky few who can learn from the mistakes of others (I've never pissed on a fence, I hear it really f'ing hurts though). I just don't feel like I could access that wealth of knowledge from a bunch of 20-somethings, all of us stumbling about in the dark, repeating mistakes that others could have warned us about if we'd have bothered to hang out with them and listen to their advice.
Good outlook. Not everyone's but very good one. I like what I learn from the "younger crowd" as much as what I learn from the "older crowd" (yeah, there are actually people older then me)

My dad would commend you on not being a "fence pisser". I certainly was when I was younger-it sucks. It's SO much easier to learn from OTHER people's mistakes!
__________________
"Love As Thou Wilt"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ageism, exclusion, marginalization, tng, young

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:13 AM.